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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [RZ] [ In reply to ]
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RZ wrote:
Just ran across this today; http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ce-armstrong-cycling

Does anyone know if that exchange (end of article) with Lemond and L.A.'s mother supposedly actually happened? Or did the author just make that up to try to prove some point? This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Armstrong was a child of single mother with a father that willfully disowned him. That subconscious damage runs very deep. Really deep. Mothers are good at caring for children, but without a father to cushion the fundamental sociopathy of general human society (oh, you thought we had a moral, upstanding world out there?), the child learns pretty quickly to distrust everyone.

Inevitably there's a stepfather. That stepfather doesn't care about the child, only cares about the woman and the child is baggage. So the child learns to distrust the motives of even those closest to them. The child trusts nobody. Any shelter and support is conditional, and can be removed at any time.

From these fires can come champions, psychological torture that steels the mind for uncompromising competition. Nobody cares about the child, so he doesn't care about them. Outwork them, outsmart them, and outcheat them, because they will do the very same thing. If there are rules, and they aren't being applied to the enemy, then why should the child follow them? They are just another way of disadvantaging the child, who is already disadvantaged. And the child has had enough of that.

The child learns to form its own code. The laws, customs, culture of the world didn't protect the child growing up. Labels that should have protected the child, like "mother", "father", "guardian", "friend", have been proven to be lies a dozen times over. So what is a true friend? What is true protection? What is loyalty? What is love? What is success?

The child defines its own meanings, rules, signs for those. Usually they are more idealized that what most people practically regard them, since the child did not live them, only knows them in theory, in ideal, without the warts of living them in real life.

This child seems to value trust above all things, and if the trust is violated, a trust given very very carefully, it provokes the vindictiveness that only a childhood of pain and betrayal can provoke. The child sees an enemy worse that any peripheral enemy like "journalist" or anything else. The child sees their father: someone that should have protected him, but instead betrayed him in the worst way.

The child seems vindictive, sensitive to slights, devalues relationships, trusts nobody. The child is competitive, driven, and a very hard worker. The child is desperate and hungry.

The child becomes rich and famous.

The child sees that fame brings an entirely different breed of distrust. Motives of people around him become even more contemptously shallow. They want his money. They want his fame. They want to make money tearing down his fame.

The child sees a system that used to protect the dopers (if they were European dopers) but doesn't now that the doper is him. The child sees a sport that was organized around team doping and doping culture for decades, the sport that he followed the unwritten rules on, be turned against him, now that he is the success. The child only sees a world that is out to get him, when others were not punished. The child sees an unfair world.

...

Okay, does that excuse his actions or free him from complicity of his sins? Nope.

But I believe that is the psychology of Lance Armstrong. I don't know if that makes him a psychopath (I believe psychopaths are fundamentally born without empathy, not conditioned to reject it as Armstrong's upbringing suggests).

I believe the world is ugly, mean, capitalist, and unfair. The culture values winners at all costs.

Our values produced this man and his career. To lay the blame on him as a "bad apple" rejects the very nature of the society we have constructed and the gladitorial bloodsports we blindly cheer.
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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I have a problem with it, only in that we are merging an "honor" system with an scientific system. If you cant test for something at the time of the test, I dont think it should be a banned substance. I want the test and the test result to be able to stand on it's own, not have to wait a certain number of years for it to get verified. If that's the case, then dont ever announce any test results, until full lab analysis can be run on the sample.

It cheapens the entire process in my eyes, because it never really gives any closure to the process, and that is what I think is lacking here. Being able to say "I believe in that test result", is something I want to have, especially for the elite athlete that I coach and look in the eye and say "is that valid"? I want them to be able to say, the result speaks for itself.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Here's something I dont like about the 1999 samples being retested years later for epo when they finally got a test for it. Hell, I guess here's my whole stance on the entire doping issue. If you dont have a test for something, I kinda find it weird/hard to believe you can actually say it's ban. Only because it seems like there is no way to detect it, so it's kinda like an "honor" system. And I'd rather it be a situation where the procedures can test and determine if XYZ is in your system at the time of the test. Not having to wait 8 more years to validate the achievement or not. If that really is the procedures that we are using, just seems like it's false hope.


And with that being said, I probaly realize that the dopers will always be ahead of the curve, and maybe that's the only solution to the problem. I just kinda have issues with the entire timing of the process.

ETA: I'm bringing this up, not because Lance is the most "tested" athlete or that he passed all those countless tests. I'm bringing it up, because at the basic level, testing is what we are suppose to believe in. So if the system is built into place to kinda have a fail safe backup plan, is there any point in really announcing the test results in the 1st place?

The possibility that more sophisticated tests in the future will catch present dopers is a valuable deterrant and is also a reason why it's good they popped LA now. Same with testimony from others. Dopers will always be one step ahead of the testers, so without this possibility the sport would quickly become rife with doping again.
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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And that's great in all. So just dont ever announce that an result is "negative" until full official analysis is run on said sample. That's it. Dont say it's "negative" and then come back with it being positive. Simply wait until it's fully anaylyzed.

ETA: Because the test result is the ONLY thing an athlete can use that will verify if an athlete is doping or not. So I think it's very unfair to make the claim that an sample is "clean" but yet it's not really clean, and therefore kinda compromises the entire process, until the full lab analysis can be run at a later date.

I'm fine with them holding samples for later testing, but I'm not ok with you announcing that said athlete is officially clean, and then get mad when athlete uses that as his defense.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 20, 13 8:51
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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To me the whole process is set up for confusion. If you want to have a process where years later samples can be re-tested, fine. But to me all it does is invalidate the official "clean" result that you previously announced. And I just have concern because when an athlete's test says what it is, it's as if we cant really live by that finding. It's like we have to wait X number of years later to really know if he's clean. I certainly dont want that to be the case with the athletes I deal with. I want to be able to trust the system and the athlete to be able to say with certanity and validity that atleast I can live with the test result. That's why I dont understand why they even allow an test result to be published, if all they are going to do is further analyze it years later. Seems to be kinda an ass backwards approach.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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And before any jumps down my throat. I'm not advocating for doping, I'm simply saying that a test result is the only real defense an athlete has in determining if someone is doping or not. So if that's the case, you damn well better be sure of the findings of your result before you announce any finding. So, dont even put the athlete in a position to be able to use the "I'm clean because the test says so" defense, if all you are going to do is analyze the sample again some years later. You aren't really being fair to the athlete at that point, and so if we want the process to include post dated lab analyze, let's simply not announce any decision until the FINAL verdict on said sample can be announced with upmost certanity and accuracy.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
To me the whole process is set up for confusion. If you want to have a process where years later samples can be re-tested, fine. But to me all it does is invalidate the official "clean" result that you previously announced. And I just have concern because when an athlete's test says what it is, it's as if we cant really live by that finding. It's like we have to wait X number of years later to really know if he's clean. I certainly dont want that to be the case with the athletes I deal with. I want to be able to trust the system and the athlete to be able to say with certanity and validity that atleast I can live with the test result. That's why I dont understand why they even allow an test result to be published, if all they are going to do is further analyze it years later. Seems to be kinda an ass backwards approach.

So the only way retro testing would be valid for you would include time travel?

In the dark bowels of a National Federation:
-"We got the results for the Tour, phone Bob to tell him he is clean"
Tap on the shoulder...
-"I"m the lab rat from the future - these are the retests from the future with future tech that you don't have to test stuff that is illegal now."
-"Oh gee thanks, lab rat from the future, how did Bob's test come back as?".
-"Glow in the dark piss positive - it can melt glass if heated - in fact it validated some of biology of Alien."
- "Bob's not going to be happy about his past deeds being busted in the present because of the future."
-"Got to leave now, I have some stock to buy before I go back to the future."
etc

http://brokeniron.blogspot.com/
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [gildasd] [ In reply to ]
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I dont know if you are being serious or not. If you are trying to be a smart ass, fair enough. But if you dont want to see the viewpoint I'm making, just say that, because I think what I'm bringing up is valid, is it not? You simply just disagree with it, which is fine.

I am saying, if you want to include retro testing, than dont ever announce ANY rulings on said sample until a federation/lab is ready to make a complete and full ruling, that we call can say "ok, that's the result". Right now, it's as if every test has an * by it, as if saying "it's negative until we retest at a later date". If you are cool with that, fair enough. I find that process to be never ending and really no point in ever announcing a test result because you can then retest it. So your "negative" isnt really a negative is it?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I dont know if you are being serious or not. If you are trying to be a smart ass, fair enough. But if you dont want to see the viewpoint I'm making, just say that, because I think what I'm bringing up is valid, is it not? You simply just disagree with it, which is fine.

I am saying, if you want to include retro testing, than dont ever announce ANY rulings on said sample until a federation/lab is ready to make a complete and full ruling, that we call can say "ok, that's the result". Right now, it's as if every test has an * by it, as if saying "it's negative until we retest at a later date". If you are cool with that, fair enough. I find that process to be never ending and really no point in ever announcing a test result because you can then retest it. So your "negative" isnt really a negative is it?


I think the only ones that have anything to fear from retro-testing are dopers cheats, and liars. The rest can sleep fine at night.
For one, as I don't dope, I hope they bring it on.

If it leaves some people confused to why it's clean now and dirty in 5 years, well, hell, aww, it sucks for them. But that's acceptable collateral.

Beating the tests should not be a sport. But a criminal activity you always lose at - be it sooner or later.

G

http://brokeniron.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: gildasd: Jan 20, 13 9:47
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [gildasd] [ In reply to ]
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So just dont allow an test result to be announced until the federation and/or the governing body is sure that said test is completely processed, that's my only issue, because until then, an athlete can't really say anything to clear his name. That's the issue I have. We've now made it where until an test is completely verified, claiming an test result as your defense of your innocent just isnt applicable anymore. That, I find the troubling part in all of it.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So when should that test result be? 5, 10, 15 years.? What if a new test is out in three years then another updated test in 5? It is an impossible solution you are proposing. Since a new test will be developed in the "Future" you never know when that "future" is going to be in present time.
So are you suggesting that if an athlete is tested today they will not be announced clean or negative till a set future time in the future?
In the case of the 99 samples, even if epo was not illegal, manipulating your hemocrit in an unatural way was cheating. Lance chose to lie about it. He was proven a liar about it. Those samples did not prove to be the key of his punishment, just the proof that he was a public liar. If someone takes away your job at work due to lying, you do not think their should be repricussions if it is found out at a later date you lost your job becasue of false accusations?
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [cyclops] [ In reply to ]
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cyclops wrote:
I still don't think he doped. He could just be saying he did it so he could race again.
WTF?????? All the evidence. Loss of millions and millions of dollars he would accept to lie......Do keep your aluminum hat on at all times?
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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No what I'm saying is by allowing retro testing, what the system is saying is that X athlete is "clean" for xy but we don't know if he is clean for Z. So we will just wait for a test on that and then we can all agree to determine if an athlete truly is clean or not. The fact that it took 6 years to determine if an athlete truly is clean or not, is an time period I'm not willing to accept.

I'm saying this. If we have a test for X and Y, make X and Y illegal to use. But if we don't have a test for Z, I find it hard to say Z should be illegal, unless we want to always be able to retroactively test an sample. Which again, if that is the case, we are only offering partial confirmed negative test results.

As I said with retro testing I think the process of announcing an athlete is clean but then not allowing that confirmation to stand because there is always a retro test, completely backwards. If we are cool with retro testing, let's end all partial testing results announcements. That only seems fair.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the clarification. Though I think epo was illegal, on the list. But know test for. However unatural manipulation of hemocrit was illegal.
To this quote "As I said with retro testing I think the process of announcing an athlete is clean but then not allowing that confirmation to stand because there is always a retro test, completely backwards. If we are cool with retro testing, let's end all partial testing results announcements. That only seems fair.
You would never know its partial testing unless a new test came out. You would have to know the future.....
I just disagree. but that fine.....cheers
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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cowardlydragon wrote:
RZ wrote:
Just ran across this today; http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ce-armstrong-cycling

Does anyone know if that exchange (end of article) with Lemond and L.A.'s mother supposedly actually happened? Or did the author just make that up to try to prove some point? This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Armstrong was a child of single mother with a father that willfully disowned him. That subconscious damage runs very deep. Really deep. Mothers are good at caring for children, but without a father to cushion the fundamental sociopathy of general human society (oh, you thought we had a moral, upstanding world out there?), the child learns pretty quickly to distrust everyone.

Inevitably there's a stepfather. That stepfather doesn't care about the child, only cares about the woman and the child is baggage. So the child learns to distrust the motives of even those closest to them. The child trusts nobody. Any shelter and support is conditional, and can be removed at any time.

From these fires can come champions, psychological torture that steels the mind for uncompromising competition. Nobody cares about the child, so he doesn't care about them. Outwork them, outsmart them, and outcheat them, because they will do the very same thing. If there are rules, and they aren't being applied to the enemy, then why should the child follow them? They are just another way of disadvantaging the child, who is already disadvantaged. And the child has had enough of that.

The child learns to form its own code. The laws, customs, culture of the world didn't protect the child growing up. Labels that should have protected the child, like "mother", "father", "guardian", "friend", have been proven to be lies a dozen times over. So what is a true friend? What is true protection? What is loyalty? What is love? What is success?

The child defines its own meanings, rules, signs for those. Usually they are more idealized that what most people practically regard them, since the child did not live them, only knows them in theory, in ideal, without the warts of living them in real life.

This child seems to value trust above all things, and if the trust is violated, a trust given very very carefully, it provokes the vindictiveness that only a childhood of pain and betrayal can provoke. The child sees an enemy worse that any peripheral enemy like "journalist" or anything else. The child sees their father: someone that should have protected him, but instead betrayed him in the worst way.

The child seems vindictive, sensitive to slights, devalues relationships, trusts nobody. The child is competitive, driven, and a very hard worker. The child is desperate and hungry.

The child becomes rich and famous.

The child sees that fame brings an entirely different breed of distrust. Motives of people around him become even more contemptously shallow. They want his money. They want his fame. They want to make money tearing down his fame.

The child sees a system that used to protect the dopers (if they were European dopers) but doesn't now that the doper is him. The child sees a sport that was organized around team doping and doping culture for decades, the sport that he followed the unwritten rules on, be turned against him, now that he is the success. The child only sees a world that is out to get him, when others were not punished. The child sees an unfair world.

...

Okay, does that excuse his actions or free him from complicity of his sins? Nope.

But I believe that is the psychology of Lance Armstrong. I don't know if that makes him a psychopath (I believe psychopaths are fundamentally born without empathy, not conditioned to reject it as Armstrong's upbringing suggests).

I believe the world is ugly, mean, capitalist, and unfair. The culture values winners at all costs.

Our values produced this man and his career. To lay the blame on him as a "bad apple" rejects the very nature of the society we have constructed and the gladitorial bloodsports we blindly cheer.

Excellent.
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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If a new test comes out then immediately make it illegal. I have an issue that it took 6 years to determine if the 99 samples really were clean it not. I'm of the nature, test for what you can basically test for at a present time. If it takes a long period of time where an athlete is almost retired before they can actually validate an sample, that I find faulty process. If you can't test for it so be it, keep it off the banned list. Or don't ever announce any testing result until the authorities have finalized the sample. That's just my take on it.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I get what you are saying. The 6 yrs later on the 99 samples were not used to convict Lance. Part of reasoned decision but not used as "proof" for banning. Just used that he lied, which I think is ok. He was not banned in 2007 on those tests......but as an anology I get what you are saying, I just disagree
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Lol that's even more bizarre. We are doing retro testing that doesn't even matter? Because I think you are right, the governing bodies actually wouldn't validate the results. This process definitely has some holes in it unfortunately.

Which is why I'm of the thinking, test what you can test and said test result should stand for that athlete.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [YaHey] [ In reply to ]
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YaHey wrote:
sdmike wrote:
1999 Samples question:

Aside from Lances samples, was it ever revealed how many or what percentage of sample where positive. Not necessarily names, just quantity?

I undestood from all this that Lance never actually tested positive for any substance. It was the biological passport that basically stated his elevated blood levels were indicative of cheating, probably moer along the line of blood transfussion than EPO. It was the testimony along with causal evidence that did him in - not a smoking gun drug test.


Cortisone. LA finally admitted that the prescription was backdated
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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But that becomes a cheat's charter as the dopers are usually one step ahead of the testers
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Lol that's even more bizarre. We are doing retro testing that doesn't even matter? Because I think you are right, the governing bodies actually wouldn't validate the results. This process definitely has some holes in it unfortunately.

Which is why I'm of the thinking, test what you can test and said test result should stand for that athlete.

Did you not read how and why the 1999 samples were tested? Please do some basic research before you ramble on here.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Printer86] [ In reply to ]
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Damn! you made me break my number 1 rule. That was to never comment on a Lance thread. Shame on me.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [Printer86] [ In reply to ]
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But this is more than just about the 99 samples. This is a process question that I'm bringing up. I did some basic research because epo was banned but wasn't tested for (because there was no test). If I remember correctly, it was an independent lab/authority that actually did the tests I believe. Or if it was the authorities, they weren't going to actually ban an athlete from the findings.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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...really interesting post !


I remember Ligget commenting once (pre Lance) how he had noticed that many Tour champions had grown up without father figures. He laughed saying that it was so common that it almost seemed like a prerequisite.
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Re: Official Oprah Lance interview live thread [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
But this is more than just about the 99 samples. This is a process question that I'm bringing up. I did some basic research because epo was banned but wasn't tested for (because there was no test). If I remember correctly, it was an independent lab/authority that actually did the tests I believe. Or if it was the authorities, they weren't going to actually ban an athlete from the findings.

That's just part of it. The team that was building the EPO test went back to the '99 samples to test them thinking they would get some hits. The tests were not personally identified, other than a serial #. It was a Journalist who was able to get Lance's serial #'s and pinpoint who was positive.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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