What you really need is the ability (awareness) to 'let something go' from each stroke. You need to get to the power phase sooner and more often. That 'letting go' combined with more frequent breathing will somewhat negate the premise that doubling your stroke rate makes swimming twice as fatiguing.

You use a lot of words for a guy who is pretty clueless. I didn't write that blog, and it is obvious you are not clear what I am advocating. It sure as hell ain't, "short up front and long out back". As to that blog, I found it insightful while not really drawing a whole lot of conclusions.

You are correct, I do not know what you are advocating. The reason I thought you might be advocating short in the front long in the back is a. The graphs in the blog show that power is generated in hte back half of the stroke, implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis b. you said get to the power phase sooner and more often again implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis c. in your response to the blog, you compare the power graph of a swimmer to a cyclist again, so for the 3rd time, implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis.

So if you would like to take the time to clarify, I am interested in what you have to say.

So about Vendt: Indisputable fastest practice swimmer of all time. Set of 400 IMs on 4:15, went under 3:50 on all of them 3:43 on the last one. The time he swam CW with Phelps was interesting. Other than kick sets his send offs were considerably faster than Phelps. You probably already know this, but Phelps and Garret Weber Gale are the kings of the kick board. I know Phelps did 50 x 100's on 1:15 (maybe, I don't know interval actually) and went under 1:00 on all of them. WTF. And he doesn't look like he is trying on a board. It's just, I don't know, weird to see. It looks like he is getting pulled by a stretch cord.

Just looked up the U.S. Open/American Record for 400 SCY IM, which is 3:35.98 by Tyler Clary in March 2009. So Vendt went within 7 seconds of the AR in practice. This is just effing completely unbelievable in my mind. Any idea what his PR is??? Of course, he's the same guy who did the 30 X 1000 on 10:30 in practice...absolutely incredible workouts...Vendt still owns the 1000 AR at 8:36.49, set in Jan 2008.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So I googled the Vendt because I knew someone would have written about it online. I should have guessed, the performance was a little exagerated by the time it got to my ears (!) but the 3:43 is appearantly accurate:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=3622

Interestingly, your set is mentioned too. Though it says: 10 on 10:45, 10 on 10:30, and 10 on 10:15.

Thanks, I've seen a similar post in the past but hadn't focused on the 400 IM set you mentioned, prob cause I was just so staggered by all of those free sets, and cause I've never swum much IM outside of practice. That Bobby Hackett set of 100 x 100 scy free on 1:00 holding 57s to start, descending to 54s for last 20, and a 52.1 on the last 100 is another incredible one...

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You should read the post just below Hotman637's post...see if you can find something to agree with in THAT guys post.

This has been hashed out before on ST. I will not go though that again,lol! Anyhow a major EXAMPLE of low stress,low stroke,easy kick but FAST swimmer is Sun Yang,holder of the 1500m freestyle world record. In my opinion we can swim like Sun Yang OR we can do a high stroke,high stress,hard kick technique. We can go fast with either style. I have tried both and much prefer the low stress,low stroke style. As I said long ago,try them both and make up your own mind which you like best.

Hotman637, I love your enthusiasm for swimming and hope you never lose that. You should keep on keeping on with the TI inspired stroke you've been using as long as it gets you where you want to go. If that stroke technique ever causes you to stall out, even just a little (like maybe every single stroke), maybe you should reconsider using a higher stroke rate. BTW, that Gerry Rodriguez guy...he knows a little something about swimming, and specifically, the kind of swimming most people on this forum are typically engaged in. You should look him up.

Anyhow a major EXAMPLE of low stress,low stroke,easy kick but FAST swimmer is Sun Yang,holder of the 1500m freestyle world record. In my opinion we can swim like Sun Yang OR we can do a high stroke,high stress,hard kick technique. We can go fast with either style. I have tried both and much prefer the low stress,low stroke style. As I said long ago,try them both and make up your own mind which you like best. //

Keep in mind that Yang is 6'8" and built like long, skinny kayak. Most of the rest of the top guys that swim distance in OW and are more like us in stature, and all use pretty high turnovers. Would you have been advocating to janet evans to swim like Sun Yang too? You are right in this has been hashed out, and the overwhelming consensus is that for OW swimming, higher stroke rates are best. I'm guessing even Sun would increase his rate if he actually did swim OW too. And don't assume just because he is the fastest pool 1500 guy that he would lead any race he would be in. Ask Grant Hackett about that one, where he tried to make the olympic 10k team and got smoked by all those high turnover, high HR, energy wasting swimmers..(-;

I was actually quite shocked to hear him say some of the things he was saying... Like rotation is not that important. It goes against everything I have ever been taught but then again I was always taught pool swimming and not open water. I do know that if you can increase your stroke rate while maintaining or increasing strength (aka distance per stroke) then yea you will definately swim faster. I think thats the point people are failing to see. An increase in stroke rate alone will not make you go faster....

The"stall out"you mention is a major issue with many on ST. I was talking with a practioner of the Feldenkrais Method and they believe that you do your motion very slowly and very accurately and at the end of every completed motion you pause and that stop is a RELOAD of your body in order to maximise effectivness of that motion. It is counter intuitive so many do not do it,but that is why we get in the water and do the motion very slowly,accurately and pause at the end of that motion. Practice that over and over and then you can speed up. Maybe read up on it or do the Feldenkrais Method.

Got it. So I am going to swim like Sun Yang starting...wait for it.... now!

Really whatever works for you is fine. But it is a little dishonest to call one technique "Sun Yang" and the other "high stroke, high stress, hard kick." I am quite certain that my swimming is much closer to being low stress than yours' is to being like Sun Yang's.

Fair enough. I'll read up on the Feldenkrais method and do a little research. May even try it myself and I will let you know what I think. BRB

OK, so I've done a little research and it appears the Feldenkrais Method is a teaching/learning methodology which can be applied to learning or teaching swim technique. So maybe you can become more aware of your present technique and learn to relax and focus better using the method. It's a bit like learning to very carefully and precisely form letters by tracing the dashed-line outlines of letters or words in grammar school. You would not write that way later in life when an important term paper is due and the sun is coming up. So practice your Total Immersion inspired technique through Feldenkrais Method pedagogy all you want, but the clock will be the BS meter at the end of your lane in training and your posted swim split and overall finish time serve the same function race day.

Now it's your turn. Use the search function to look up past Gerry Rodriguez posts on this forum Then look up his resume and report back what you think.

I agree,lol! It is a"dishonest"to make the hard and fast(ha ha)distinction of these styles. Most swimmers are a mix of these techniques. As mention on my other post I connect my style to the"Feldenkrais Method". The idea is that I start with a slow,relaxed,accurate motion. As I get better it is STILL slow,relaxed and accurate relative to the high stroke method. I am NOT getting faster because I am doing more strokes but because I am doing each stroke better! It like comparing Mariano Rivera vs. the latest phenom. The phenom throws harder but he uses a lot more energy and often injures his arm. If I were learning to pitch I would start very slowly and copy Rivera. As I mastered his style to some extent I would speed up and of course add my own touches,lol.

Nice post, lol!

Sun Yang is an outlier. Even among world class 1500m swimmers he is an outlier.

I have said it before, and will say it again. Total Immersion is a style of swimming that allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim. It is a very solid approach to getting AOS (Adult Onset Swimmers) to be a little more comfortable in the water. It is not, however, a good stroke for going fast unless you happen to be one of the 1 in 50 people that it "clicks" for. I would refer you to the posts that Gerry made in the "Terry Laughlin debate" thread, but you already tried to revive that (badly) with your TI support, so you obviously ignored what he said there, too. (By the way, high arm turnover does not necessarily also mean hard kicking.)

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

One of Gerry's tenants seems to be"your hand never stops moving". In my opinion and the Feldenkrais method in order for just about ANY sporting technique to work right your body has to come to a complete stop. The top of the golf swing,pitchers wind up,tennis stroke etc. In swimming your momentum is still carrying you forward but you arms and hands are totally relaxed and not doing anything. This may only be a split second but your body re-loads,re-balances,re-sets and then you snap your other arm forward turn your shoulders and pause,re-set and re-balance for a split second again. Practice that over and over and you get faster and faster but still stay relaxed. You can say I am slow but I was slow before and it took me twice as much work,lol.

Really happy to hear you've made progress with your swimming and I hope that continues. Just don't follow the wrong gods home on this one because you'll find they live on a dead end street and you'll have a long way to backtrack.

BTW, Paul is not dead...I saw him in concert a few years ago and I swear, it WAS him.

Having read through this thread and seeing it veer off into discussions about Olympic level swimmers, fascinating as they are, I thought I would add my 2c. As an older swimmer, who has swum most of their life, I think there is some correlation between strength and speed. I read this thread earlier in the week and tried out something at a practice swim. I swim twice a week topping out at 6,000m

To put it in triathlon AG'ers terms I swam a timed 750 (25m pool, open turns) an used a pull buoy to simulate a wetsuit. Changed my normal 15 strokes (each arm = 1 stroke) to a much shorter pull and closer to 20 strokes per length. The results were quite good, for me, as I swam a time similar to what I would have five years ago. Considering I am on the declining side of performance, this was surprising. The time is unimportant (it would be AG FOP in any local Tri, but would not impress a "real" swimmer). What was important is that for me, it worked.

Most don't have the time or aptitude to develop the muscles and swim levels of the born swimmer and the reason they are swimming AG competition is because they are aging. So I would have to say, it works. Raise your stroke rate, breathe more, pull less, but often. Worked for me. I also discovered that my normal tempo is sort of a Bob Marley reggae beat and the faster tempo was a little more AC/DC for those who swim with music in their heads. :)

Try it, you'll like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpbl9m8F7c
Here's what it looks like to do about 105 strokes per minute.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

FWIW, my best 100 free time was 50.9 (from a relay start). My 1000 time was holding 56-mid/100. Phelps is not a distance swimmer, especially at this point in his career. 41 is a time typically done by a pure sprinter. If you take a guy with no fast twitch muscles, the 5-second difference holds close to true, in general.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

This video illustrates exactly what I was thinking; the guy in the video swam a 4:24.65 for the 500, averaging 53/100 with about 18 str/lngth. Allowing about 3.25 sec/turn, that's 18 str/10 sec of actually stroking ==> 108 str/min. The guy looks like he's going all out the whole way, which is what 108 str/min would be for me, an all-out sprint which I couldn't hold for more than 100 scy. Funny, the guy swims very much like I do, i.e. not much kick and fast turnover rate. It's just that my "fast" 500 turnover rate is about 75 str/min, and hence my "fast" 500 is about 35% slower than his. If I could develop a big enough aerobic engine to sustain that kind of turnover rate, sure, I could go 4:24 for a 500 too. Unfortunately, that's an extremely big IF.

In any case, the guy in the video has, IMO, a textbook stroke and would be an excellent model for anyone. He's very smooth for such a fast pace.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Here is a very interesting article from SwimSmooth just hitting my inbox this morning regarding SPM, as I'm sure it did for many ST'ers. I found their same findings when finally defeating over gliding a couple of years ago....what a joy. I'm sure it's not nearly scientific enough for much of ST thus making it garbage, but I'm a bit partial to SwimSmooth's approach as it took me from a nearly 3 decades of despising swimming to my fav sport of all three.

YMMV....enjoy

http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-and-efficiency.html

So I counted (listed by the 25)
25=15 strokes
50=18 strokes
75=18 strokes
100=18 strokes (time at this point 50.77, strokes so far= 69)
125=18 strokes
150= 18 stokes

Total stokes for 150=105
Time for 150= 1:17.24

Without actually doing further calculations, he is not doing 105 strokes per minute. Best guess that he is at 80, near what the OP is asking. (He is only doing 2 stokes per 25 more than me.) However, it seems that 17-18 strokes per 25 is his norm, regardless of speed. If he were to do an interval of 100s on 1:00, he'd be at 80 strokes. If he were to slow down to 100s on 1:15, he'd be at 80 strokes for the 100. I think that most swimmers are consistent in this way.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

How fast can you swim a 500 or 1000 yards?