I find that triathletes would be better served to increase their distance per stroke and then worry about increasing their stroke rate. Increasing both will obviously make anyone faster.

Increasing stroke rate alone may not make you faster if you dont get any distance in your stroke. You can stroke as fast you want and get no where,.

I think that's kind of a given, but maybe the best question is when to start focusing on stroke rate and what to focus on bringing it too?

---

I live my life one triathlon at a time, Nothing else matters.....
Follow me on twitter @BMeulen403

I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Mess around with both...There is too high and there is too low...at the end of the day...get in the pool an keep moving/rotating back and forth evenly with good body position...without any big pauses and/or breaks in your stroke...focusing on any one aspect of your stroke is likely to mess things up...Drills and other overexagerations of the stroke are good for helping you feel the water and point out areas of weakness, but shouldnt be your focus with swimming...If you are overgliding then doing some sets where you pick up your stroke rate would be very beneficial...Just keep in mind it isn't just how fast your arms move...it also has to be connected to the timing of the rotation (and the amount of rotation)...this is why you can't just make wholesale changes without making sure it is smooth and you can feel the water...



Balance, rotation, and rhythm are what make great swimmers....

I admit to having a better than average flip turn. However, when I swim in lcm, my cadence becomes ~38-40 strokes per 50 and interval is a little slower. However, it's my stroke rate per length is rather consistent regardless of speed. To drop down to 85 strokes per min, I'd need to be doing sub :55s per 100.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

The best open water swimmers use a high stroke rate. High stroke rates combined with breathing every stroke cycle will get you more oxygen, which is likely to be a limiter for endurance swimming (even then you'll get less air than running/cycling). Having said that I would not sacrifice technique for stroke rate as a beginning swimmer. Develop a long and powerful stroke and then work on the rate.

My $0.02

---

__________________________

Oh yeah!

That would be me, assuming reasonable values of "swim fast" and "successfully." But I may be a serious outlier, so YMMV.

http://s194.beta.photobucket.com/....html?sort=3&o=0 shows me doing a 100yd sprint from a wall start in about :57, using 19-21 strokes per length. I think my stroke rate approached 100spm at points. It may look like crappy swimming, but I have been beaten out of the water in my AG in a race about twice in the past decade (and both were in the only half IMs I did). I feel fine out of the water, and can hammer the bike/run immediately.

I started swimming at age 26 (wow, more than a quarter century ago!), and had a ridiculously high turnover from the very beginning. While I started out with masters swimming, I only once was over 20,000yds in a given week those first years. I only swim about three times per week these days, (Sunday was 3200scy, yesterday was 2300scy), but every set I do is done as hard as I can do it.

I see a number of types of swimmers in my morning group:

- Ex-swimmers: lower turnover, lots of kicking, excellent streamlining, long glide off the wall, fast
- Ex-Channel swimmer: high turnover, lots of kicking (but she's short), fast
- triathletes: low turnover, too much glide, crappy leg position, slow
- me: no glide, no kick, high turnover, "fast"

I typically hold 20-22 strokes per 25yd length, and hold 1:15s or better for intervals up to 500 (did 11:59 for 1000 this year, though). That's about 80spm.

To improve your turnover without losing speed, you really have to focus on correct and efficient catch and pull: no slipping the hand/arm through the water. I probably give up some of the finish, but that isn't the most important part of the stroke.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I have no background in swimming but have gone from a bad swimmer (even for a triathlete; ~44' for my first half after 7 months of training) to making the swim a modest strength (but still not a true swimmer; 58' & 1:01 in my last 2 IMs). TI helped me get comfortable in the water and several swim lessons helped me get into the 1:10 range for IM (where I plateaued for years).

I saw a dramatic drop in times with an increased stroke rate (at ~24 strokes per 25 scy with flip turns for a 1:20/100 scy, my rate is ~75/min in a pool & certainly higher in OW). As others suggest, a high stroke rate alone won't lead to improvement but you may see improvements when combing it with a good amount of volume and making sure you have a reasonable hold on the water at any stroke rate. I just stopped seeing many returns from making perfect form the starting point. I was not going to develop perfect form without constant coaching and lots of time (something real swimmers don't seem to comprehend as they put in this time when they were young). I have noticed that swimming with a high stroke rate puts a lot of demand on muscular endurance. If I don't swim much for a couple weeks, my lats & shoulders get tired quickly when I pick up the rate. Doing several 20K weeks in the early season was a must if I hoped to maintain the high rate for IM.

I just read Sheila Taormina's book Swim Speed Secrets and highly recommend it. She obviously doesn't like TI much and emphasizes the stroke over body position. For anyone who feels reasonably competent but slow in the water, I think it is worth the time. I can't give any feedback on my results yet but I feel that her advice will help me take a few more minutes off my swim this year.

Do a search for "Gerry Rodrigues" on here and read some of the articles from his blog and training site(s). He is an advocate of high stroke rates in OW (vs. pool swimming). IIRC, he posted something about the OWS Championships, they were at 85ish for stroke rates and went up to the high 90's/low 100's for the last 3k of the race or so.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

As others have said, you have focus on both distance per stroke and stroke rate. I've been swimming year-round since age 13 and I've been counting swimmers' strokes for most of that time. Good swimmers usually take around 18 or less strokes per 25 yd length when swimming distances of 200 yds and up. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule but this is typical. Generally the best swimmers take the fewest strokes per length, i.e. 10-12 str/lngth, but then they're going like 50 sec/100 yd so their str/min at say 12 str/lngth and 2.5 sec/turn ==> 48 str/40 sec ==> 72 str/min. A more typical "average ex-competitive swimmer" might take 16 str/lngth and go 1:10/100yds, with say 3 sec/turn ==> 64 str/58 sec ==> 66 str/min. So, the "elite" 50/sec/100 swimmer has fewer str/lngth but higher str/min.

As an example of a real outlier, I saw Mel Stewart swim the 1000 free at a U. of Tenn dual meet back around 1992. He went 9:10 or 55 sec/100 scy and took only 10 str/lngth the whole way. Assuming 2.5 sec/turn ==> 40 str/45 sec ==> 53.3 str/min. Of course, Stewart was the WR holder in the 200 fly and was just swimming the 1000 in this dual meet to score points for the team, plus he had probably done a 10,000 yd workout in the morning, since this was mid-season.

In sum, aim to have smooth powerful strokes, turning over as fast as you can without losing power per stroke. It's a balance that comes to you over time in the pool.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 but I have been beaten out of the water in my AG in a race about twice in the past decade (and both were in the only half IMs I did). //

Well you have two more weeks, then you get to pull steve and i in your new AG. So i will be expecting a nice draft next time we meet. You may not win the swim though.. (-;

I would start to work on stroke rate once I was confident in my form and know that my balance in the water is good. Stroke rate and ditance per stroke go hand in hand. If you increase your stroke rate such that its too fast, you wont have as much strength to pull you through the water. I guess the answer to the question of what to bring it to is going to depend on the individual and what their distance per stroke is. The key would be to keep the distance per stroke the same or increase it while increasing stroke rate. I don't think the answer is going to be the same for everyone.

Not sure about this so take it for what its worth. I think the higher stroke rates would be better in open water due to currents, and waves and other condtions that you would not have in the pool.

Keep in mind that to increase your stoke rate, you do not necessarily have to have the skill or the fitness to be able to sustain the same power throughout the faster stroke as you did when turning over slower. What you really need is the ability (awareness) to 'let something go' from each stroke. You need to get to the power phase sooner and more often. That 'letting go' combined with more frequent breathing will somewhat negate the premise that doubling your stroke rate makes swimming twice as fatiguing. The idea that a swim stroke has a power phase is itself foreign to many people, but it is in fact true. What little research that has been done in this area also suggests that the faster you swim, the more unbalanced the power generation becomes throughout each stroke.


An intro to this idea is presented here: http://athleticalgorithm.wordpress.com/...at-part-of-the-pull/



Before he was harassed off the site as so many other voices of reason have been, robertwb wrote an interesting piece about this debate.

http://www.findingfreestyle.com/?q=signsofimprovement


I personally have concluded that most beginner swimmers are far better off turning over faster than they are trying to pull more water with each stroke. I would not say there is a terribly high level of skill or fitness required before at least playing around with the idea. As with most things in the pool, the pace clock is a very good tool to guide you to what works.


Ken Lehner's example is atypical only in the sense that he became very fast indeed for an adult onset swimmer, but not atypical in the sense that I have seen similar patterns of development in many many AO swimmers as they have learned to swim faster.

I think that there is a happy medium somewhere, and each person has to find it. Generally speaking though I think that triathletes are sold a lot of things and they really buy it. And, one minute that is TI or something similar and the next it's higher turnover, truth is the middle ground is somewhere in between.

A higher turnover without a good catch will have you slipping through the water, expending a lot of energy, and generally going no where. A long slow stroke might be great for the pool but a lot of times loses a lot of it's usefulness in an open water situation where you are swimming with 2,000 of your closest friends. But, there are things that you can take from a long powerful stroke and apply them to a shorter higher stroke rate as well.

A slightly higher stroke rate in open water lets you adjust based on chop, how close you are to other athletes if you can't get your full extension in the front of your stroke. But focusing on the stroke rate alone won't necessarily make you a better open water swimmer if you don't work on the basic mechanics of your stroke first. Generally, you'll find that if you are more of a kick driven swimmer you'll have a slower stroke rate. As you move towards a higher stroke rate, your rotation and kick will both decrease.

---

Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Gerry Rodrigues just did a 12 part video series on how to become a better triathlete swimmer. Information specifically for triathlete swimmers.

Do a search on you tube for "Tower 26 - Gerry Rodrigues - How to become a better triathlete swimmer"

They are still uploading them and I believe have 7 uploaded so far....

---

-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3

"you do not necessarily have to have the skill or the fitness to be able to sustain the same power throughout the faster stroke as you did when turning over slower"

That's exactly what I wanted to know actually. I'm a decent swimmer, but have stagnated with my times. Up to like a week ago, I was obsessed with keeping the same stroke count (13 strokes/25 scy), and it always yielded the same results and I wasn't getting faster, and when I'd get deep into the set and couldn't keep up my stroke count I figured I was tired (which I was) and called it a day. I did alot of research on slowtwitch and so I tried not counting, as well as increasing my stroke count and getting to my power part of my stroke earlier and eliminated some of the unnecessary body rolling and "thumb against thigh brush", and it really helped.

I would LOVE to be a low-training, no-background AG swimmer that favors a high stroke rate like 80spm.

As is, if I go 80spm without form deterioation, I'll rapidly fatigue in under 1000 yds. It's not even a mswimmers.atter of me wanting to favor a higher stroke rate - I simple can't do it without tiring myself out. Clearly I'm not a fish, but I don't think I'm too dissimilar to other late-onset . 80spm for me feels like a sprint!

Thanks for posting this, got me to thinking. As a nooby swimmer, thinking back over the last few swims, I was increasing my stroke rate to "go faster". Now that I think about it more, I "think" I'm taking it a bit too easy with my longer swims (like 500m) and dropping back to a more relaxed, slower stroke rate which is what is keeping my already slow pace even slower.

I'll have to play with a bit faster stroke rate at the pool and see how things feel and what the times are looking like.

Anyway, this is what I like about ST. Getting ideas that finally make sense to me so I can try out different stuff to see what works for me.

---

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

Here is the current thread. The links to his presentation are contained there.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...orum_view_collapsed;

There are 12 - 9 minute sections..each one is solid gold

---

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

-----

That happens all the time with newbie and weaker swimmers and is exactly what I was talking about when I said that folks tend to get "lazy" in open water practise.Same applie for longer sets in the pool.Start pushing yourself more as it doesn't matter if you blow up a bit in training..

---

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Definitely watch that video series from Gerry Rodrigues. It sounds like you fit right into his target audience and he makes a lot of good points about high stroke rate and open water swimming.

When I was new to swimming, I had somewhat of the opposite problem. This was for school/competitive pool swimming rather than open water or triathlon. I started swimming at age 13 and I have always used a high stroke rate. I usually swim around 18-22 strokes per length for short course yards, even at 6' tall. A faster pace usually means a lower stroke count, which means an even higher stroke rate. During my first five years or so of competitive swimming, I had numerous coaches tell me that I should reduce my stroke count in various ways - increasing glide, kicking harder, etc. I think this helped teach me better form, but with the goal of reducing strokes per length, it always felt so slow. I can get to the other wall a lot faster when I take shorter faster strokes, rather than long, smooth gliding strokes. I never put much effort into changing my stroke rate and that seems to have translated well to open water. I usually race at 80+ spm in open water. I think flip turns in the pool reduce that somewhat, but I usually swim 65-70 spm (lower for scy, higher for lcm) when swimming hard in the pool when including turns at the wall.

I think if you struggle to increase your stroke rate because it is hard aerobically, or it tires out your muscles, then it is simply a matter of conditioning. Make a real effort to increase your stroke rate and I think 2-3 swims per week should be enough for you to actually make some improvements. Spending a few years as a 'swimmer' before becoming a triathlete taught me how much volume and intensity the body can really take on a regular basis when swimming. I think many triathletes don't push themselves nearly hard enough in the pool.

I know I'm getting away from the specifics of your questions a little bit, but starting swimming as a kid gives me a little bit different perspective. In my experience, I've never felt like I suffered on the bike or the run because of my effort in the swim. I usually swim as hard as I can for the distance and that seems to work out well.

A high stroke rate is good if it is not overly detrimental to form. I don't believe you can expect to have good form and high stroke rate without gradually training into both. There is a good page at http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html where they have observed what seems to work for swimmers, and made a chart you can use - to determine if you are following what has worked for others.

at the end of the day. i think it's about balancing everything. you can have a high stroke rate but if you're form is terrible, you won't be going anywhere. you can have the best form, but if you're stroke rate is slow, you won't be going very fast.

i'd say at least 3 swims a week if not 4. higher swim rate lead to slower bike and run? not necessarily. if you improve your swim, you'll be more efficient overall and have more energy for the rest of your race.

I had a video lesson with paul from swimsmooth it was awesome.

we used my tempo trainer and set out 62spm as my set point (for now). Oddly enough the other week i swam without it, dropped a whole 60 strokes off my 1km time, but was a whole 1min faster! I started swimming life as an overglider, then reverted to somewhat as a 'thrasher'....so i am overanalyzing this data of being quicker with a lower stroke count because i dont want to be an overglider again. Im going to swim tomorrow a 1km set and drop the trainer to 60spm and see what happens.

Ken - I've read your swimming posts with interest over the past 9 months or so, and this last one really piqued my interest. If you can swim a 57 for 100 scy off the wall in practice, I would think you could go a lot faster than 11:59 for a 1000, i.e., more like 10:20 or so. Most distance swimmers I know can hold their fastest practice 100 speed + about 5 sec or so, which for you would be about 1:02. Do you think you're more of a sprinter??? Or perhaps if you gave up the bike and run and just swam 6 days/wk for a winter, think you could get down to 10:20-ish???

In any event, I am NOT being critical at all here, but rather as a long-time swimmer I am genuinely curious. Cheers, Eric.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Most distance swimmers I know can hold their fastest practice 100 speed + about 5 sec or so, which for you would be about 1:02.//

I think you are off in your assessment of what an all out 100 vs a 1000 pace are. Keep in mind we are talking about masters athletes that swim around 10k a week or so, not college swimmers doing 100+k per week and 19 years old. Lets take one of the best sprinters in the world and also a world class distance swimmer. Phelps can probably swim about a 41 or so for 100 yards. By your calculation he should be able to hold 46's for a 1000. That would be a 7;40+. Now if you are a swimmer you know how ridiculous this swim is. So if the fastest guy in the world is not even close and a top 55 top swimmer is not even close, who is it that you know holds a 5 second gap?


Not saying there is not someone, but it is going to be very rare. Even Jordan who i consider a non swimmer who has built up tremendous endurance with absolutely no speed will not fit. I think he went about a 58 100 and then did a 10;59 1000. That is about the closest guy i can think of and he is about an 8 second spread. And he did both those time in the same swim meet..

Monty - You missed the "fastest practice 100 speed" part. Ken said he did the 57 from a wall start in practice, which I took as starting in the water, so probably he could go 53-ish if rested and off the blocks in a meet, which would translate to about a 9-sec gap between the all-out 100 and 1000 if he went 10:20 on his 1000. Eric Vendt's record for the 1000 is 8:36 or 51.6/100. I have no idea what he can do for an all-out 100 free but 42.6 doesn't seem unreasonable for a distance guy like him. James Bonney told me his best 100 free was 46.0 vs his best 1000 at about 9:10. So, a 9 sec diff comparing absolute best 100 free times but about 5 sec diff using best 100 practice times.

As for myself, my lifetime best 100 free in a meet is a 1:03, my best 100 free ever in practice is a 1:07, and my lifetime best 1000 is a 12:00, or 1:12/100, both of which were swum in my late 20s. Ken's post got my attention since we're about equal in the 1000 but he's way faster in the 100. For the record, I'm 57 and swim about 30,000 yds/wk. I've been swimming year-round since age 13 but I've just never been all that fast.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

For the record, I'm 57 and swim about 30,000 yds/wk.//

Hey, where were you when we did out 1000tt for swim smooth? Now we have our last guy for a 4 man relay, You, half speed and i all 57, and the youngster ken will be in our AG in a couple weeks. And i missed the part where you said workout 100, and i know ken would agree with me that he would not swim any 53. At our age we often swim out best time in workouts, and he maybe gets another second+ for the dive, but that would probably be it. That 1000 he did was a great swim, it was 2nd only to halfspeed's 11;30+. Ya, i still think even the workout 100tt is not a 5 second predictor of a 1000 time. I think a get out workout swim would just be a second or two slower than a race 100, so in the 7 and on up to 15 seconds would be the range.


Thinking back to my last masters meet where i swam both, i was about 59 and 12;18 for the two swims. in workouts the best i can do is about a 1;01 and in that workout 1000 i did a 12;36, so a pretty big gap for me. If you want to spank someone, it should be me!! (-; I seem to be able to do ok on OW race days, so go figure..

That's because you're a toe sucker! Ok, ok, you swim straighter than most of us in OW.

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

I'm curious, what should a normal, "front pack" triathlete be able to do for the 1000? I would have thought Jordan was slower than 11:00. That article by Jesse Thomas a while ago suggested he had a hard time breaking 12 and he seems to have no problem staying with the lead pack most of the time.

Didn't hear about the Swim Smooth TT. The best I could do now for a 1000 would be about 12:50, maybe 12:45 on my very best day, so I'd be your slowest link. What's the deal with the 4 x 1000 relay??? Haven't heard of that one:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I like stuff like this, even though, truthfully it has no merit ; ) I just like hearing what guys do in practice.

So about Vendt: Indisputable fastest practice swimmer of all time. Set of 400 IMs on 4:15, went under 3:50 on all of them 3:43 on the last one. The time he swam CW with Phelps was interesting. Other than kick sets his send offs were considerably faster than Phelps. You probably already know this, but Phelps and Garret Weber Gale are the kings of the kick board. I know Phelps did 50 x 100's on 1:15 (maybe, I don't know interval actually) and went under 1:00 on all of them. WTF. And he doesn't look like he is trying on a board. It's just, I don't know, weird to see. It looks like he is getting pulled by a stretch cord.

Now to the question at hand:

Several months ago I started a thread about how most of the US National team does a majority of their training in SCY - not LCM. Ehh, I don't want to start that debate again but for what it is worth: If you want to swim with a SR in the 80's you need to train with your SR in the 80's. And doing long slow swims in a long course pool - or worse OW - will not allow you to develop the strength and endurance to do that. If you are swimming a 1000 straight and by the end of the 1000 your SR has deteriorated 10%, then you wasted 10 minutes (well probably more like 15) of training time. You should have done 10 x 100's and keep your SR rate high for all 40 lengths.

Grande Pelota: the conclusions drawn in the blog you reference are dubious. Obviously the writer was correct about the most powerful part of the stroke - basically when the hand is from lower chest to hip - but they ignore the competing force: drag. Studies have been done to show that a swimmer is traveling fastest when the hand is out front, and they are going their slowest when their hand is in the power positions. This is simply due to the drag that is created when your hand is in exit phase of your stroke. You wrote that swimmers need to "let go" and get their hands to the power position sooner and more often. I am not sure what you are advocating, but if you are saying "short up front, long out the back," well solid research has concluded that is faulty.

Finding Freestyle Dark Star Postal Meet

This should happen again.

Like now.

AJ - i too love hearing what kind of times guys do in practice. I didn't know with certainty about MP being a super kicker but I had kind of guessed it watching video of his underwaters doing dolphin kick, as his ankles are just unbelievably flexible. If I had ankles like that, I'd be a 200 flyer myself:)

Regarding kick sets, and you may remember this from a thread 7-8 months ago, I've heard that Mel Stewart could do 20 x 100 dolphin kick with a board on the 1:10, coming in at under 1:00 for the whole 20. The guy who told me that was an assistant coach at U. of Tenn back when Stewart swam there from 1988-92. If this is true, that would imply kicking 2000 in around 20:30 if he just went straight!!!

And regarding Vendt's 400 IM set, that is just unbelievable doing them all under 3:50.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'm going to say that it it is probably in the middle, but solid research was probably done in a pool. I think that what is missed for open water, and for 'most' age group athletes who are racing 70.3 and 140.6 distance races is that a lot of times they can't get long out front because they are swimming with 2000 of their closest friends. Instead of being long out front they are left with short up front by virtue of necessity or it is situational. So, what does that leave you? It leaves you the middle and back part of the stroke. Or, the catch is so in effective because there are so many bubbles, etc. Again, that leaves the middle and back part of the stroke for a lot of swimmers to get their propulsion. It means that their 'catch' or 'anchor point' or whatever is likely further behind or deeper in open water than it might be in a pool. This, to me, is where band swimming can play a big part in training triathletes. Less about body position, more about moving forward in the water.

If you are an off the front swimmer, then some of the above might not be completely applicable.

---

Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Because that word does not have specific meaning, there is no answer to your question.

But you are comparing how Jesse practices vs how Jordan swam in a meet. Also Jesse improved a ton in the water over the last 18 months. My guess he can now do a set of 1000s on 12:00 and get plenty of rest.

I'm curious, what should a normal, "front pack" triathlete be able to do for the 1000?//

I assume you meant front pack pro, and it will be a range. I would say from 10 minutes to 11 minutes, maybe a bit more. Now doing these times do not guarantee your spot in the lead group, just a shot at it. A better predictor would be this time accompanied with a 200 time. That is where jordan falls off the scale, he swims fast enough in the 1000, but is way behind in the 200. And Jesse is not a front pack swimmer, he is 2nd pack and like AJ said, he is much faster now than when he wrote what you quoted. He and jordan are probably right about the same for the 1000, but i bet jordan gets him in the hour swim by a bunch, but may not have him in the 200. Not sure what jesse does for a flat out 200, but jordan's was about a little over 2 minutes, like 2;03+. Front pack guys really need 1;55 or so speed to be able to keep up with the fast early pace in big races..

I hope people keep perpetuating the dumb idea if high stroke rate because it will substantially increase any advantage that real swimmers have, and it will make for cool splash photos at mass swim starts!

I'm pretty sure I've posts this before, but here's Club Wolverine doing a kick king of the pool. Wu Peng is representing China as a butterflyer at this week's short course world championships.

http://www.youtube.com/...rjyTpVw&index=25

I have no idea what my stroke rate or DPS is.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Yeah, no dis to Jordan, I think his swim times stand out more because he is winning big races, hes still a solid triathlete swimmer, at least in my opinion. So if he wasn't getting dropped in the first few minutes, he would be able to hang I guess. I need to start keeping track of my 1000 and 200 abilities, I can break 12 for sure but I've never truly raced one.

I agree! Many seem to think the higher the stroke rate and the higher the heart rate the better. Those simply indicate the higher the stress on the body and the quicker the injury or burnout.

For triathletes, or those swimming in large packs in open water, higher rates are more effective, generally.

There's just too much unstable water for the long polished pool strokes, and too much contact. Basically the longer polished pool stroke athlete generally has a consistent strong kick. A strong kick is not a triathletes friend as it simply costs (heart rate) too much, and triathletes are usually not good kickers.

As mentioned in prior threads, one does need conditioning for higher rates, so just train for it.

Regarding Jesse Thomas and more recently, Sean Jeffereson, their improvements have come from very specific workouts, a dynamic swim training environment and LOTS of specificity. Jefferson was about 3:30 down on Hunter Kemper last year in the swim; at the recent LA Triathlon he was :30 down. All due to proper preparation plus some good dna; he's a 3:56 mile runner :) Jesse had his best swim in Maine at Rev 3 after a 3-week intensive injection of open water training and specific pool sets.

From my experience, swimming/training at 55 strokes per minute as advised or prescribed by some will not lead to FAST open water swimming.

---

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26

You use a lot of words for a guy who is pretty clueless. I didn't write that blog, and it is obvious you are not clear what I am advocating. It sure as hell ain't, "short up front and long out back". As to that blog, I found it insightful while not really drawing a whole lot of conclusions.

As far as drag, sometimes it is useful to isolate a thing to measure a thing. While I did not write that blog, I can assure you the author is well aware of the competing force of drag. It really is ok to leave it out of the discussion from time to time. Unless you mean to say that because the most powerful part of the stroke has higher drag, that a swimmer should seek to minimize that drag at the expense of the power.

BOOM! lock up the thread and let's move on. =P

A drowning person has the same thing in common as this. Lots of strokes but they "ain't going anywhere" but down. You definitely need DPS. The only way you're going to improve that is with good body position or you're still going nowhere if you're vertical.

My thoughts exactly. In addition, I'd like to add that I love it when people get on here and profess about both Total Immersion and Michael Phelps in the same post! Solid gold.

What you really need is the ability (awareness) to 'let something go' from each stroke. You need to get to the power phase sooner and more often. That 'letting go' combined with more frequent breathing will somewhat negate the premise that doubling your stroke rate makes swimming twice as fatiguing.

You use a lot of words for a guy who is pretty clueless. I didn't write that blog, and it is obvious you are not clear what I am advocating. It sure as hell ain't, "short up front and long out back". As to that blog, I found it insightful while not really drawing a whole lot of conclusions.

You are correct, I do not know what you are advocating. The reason I thought you might be advocating short in the front long in the back is a. The graphs in the blog show that power is generated in hte back half of the stroke, implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis b. you said get to the power phase sooner and more often again implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis c. in your response to the blog, you compare the power graph of a swimmer to a cyclist again, so for the 3rd time, implying the back half of the stroke should be the point of emphasis.

So if you would like to take the time to clarify, I am interested in what you have to say.

So about Vendt: Indisputable fastest practice swimmer of all time. Set of 400 IMs on 4:15, went under 3:50 on all of them 3:43 on the last one. The time he swam CW with Phelps was interesting. Other than kick sets his send offs were considerably faster than Phelps. You probably already know this, but Phelps and Garret Weber Gale are the kings of the kick board. I know Phelps did 50 x 100's on 1:15 (maybe, I don't know interval actually) and went under 1:00 on all of them. WTF. And he doesn't look like he is trying on a board. It's just, I don't know, weird to see. It looks like he is getting pulled by a stretch cord.

Just looked up the U.S. Open/American Record for 400 SCY IM, which is 3:35.98 by Tyler Clary in March 2009. So Vendt went within 7 seconds of the AR in practice. This is just effing completely unbelievable in my mind. Any idea what his PR is??? Of course, he's the same guy who did the 30 X 1000 on 10:30 in practice...absolutely incredible workouts...Vendt still owns the 1000 AR at 8:36.49, set in Jan 2008.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So I googled the Vendt because I knew someone would have written about it online. I should have guessed, the performance was a little exagerated by the time it got to my ears (!) but the 3:43 is appearantly accurate:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=3622

Interestingly, your set is mentioned too. Though it says: 10 on 10:45, 10 on 10:30, and 10 on 10:15.

Thanks, I've seen a similar post in the past but hadn't focused on the 400 IM set you mentioned, prob cause I was just so staggered by all of those free sets, and cause I've never swum much IM outside of practice. That Bobby Hackett set of 100 x 100 scy free on 1:00 holding 57s to start, descending to 54s for last 20, and a 52.1 on the last 100 is another incredible one...

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You should read the post just below Hotman637's post...see if you can find something to agree with in THAT guys post.

This has been hashed out before on ST. I will not go though that again,lol! Anyhow a major EXAMPLE of low stress,low stroke,easy kick but FAST swimmer is Sun Yang,holder of the 1500m freestyle world record. In my opinion we can swim like Sun Yang OR we can do a high stroke,high stress,hard kick technique. We can go fast with either style. I have tried both and much prefer the low stress,low stroke style. As I said long ago,try them both and make up your own mind which you like best.

Hotman637, I love your enthusiasm for swimming and hope you never lose that. You should keep on keeping on with the TI inspired stroke you've been using as long as it gets you where you want to go. If that stroke technique ever causes you to stall out, even just a little (like maybe every single stroke), maybe you should reconsider using a higher stroke rate. BTW, that Gerry Rodriguez guy...he knows a little something about swimming, and specifically, the kind of swimming most people on this forum are typically engaged in. You should look him up.

Anyhow a major EXAMPLE of low stress,low stroke,easy kick but FAST swimmer is Sun Yang,holder of the 1500m freestyle world record. In my opinion we can swim like Sun Yang OR we can do a high stroke,high stress,hard kick technique. We can go fast with either style. I have tried both and much prefer the low stress,low stroke style. As I said long ago,try them both and make up your own mind which you like best. //

Keep in mind that Yang is 6'8" and built like long, skinny kayak. Most of the rest of the top guys that swim distance in OW and are more like us in stature, and all use pretty high turnovers. Would you have been advocating to janet evans to swim like Sun Yang too? You are right in this has been hashed out, and the overwhelming consensus is that for OW swimming, higher stroke rates are best. I'm guessing even Sun would increase his rate if he actually did swim OW too. And don't assume just because he is the fastest pool 1500 guy that he would lead any race he would be in. Ask Grant Hackett about that one, where he tried to make the olympic 10k team and got smoked by all those high turnover, high HR, energy wasting swimmers..(-;

I was actually quite shocked to hear him say some of the things he was saying... Like rotation is not that important. It goes against everything I have ever been taught but then again I was always taught pool swimming and not open water. I do know that if you can increase your stroke rate while maintaining or increasing strength (aka distance per stroke) then yea you will definately swim faster. I think thats the point people are failing to see. An increase in stroke rate alone will not make you go faster....

The"stall out"you mention is a major issue with many on ST. I was talking with a practioner of the Feldenkrais Method and they believe that you do your motion very slowly and very accurately and at the end of every completed motion you pause and that stop is a RELOAD of your body in order to maximise effectivness of that motion. It is counter intuitive so many do not do it,but that is why we get in the water and do the motion very slowly,accurately and pause at the end of that motion. Practice that over and over and then you can speed up. Maybe read up on it or do the Feldenkrais Method.

Got it. So I am going to swim like Sun Yang starting...wait for it.... now!

Really whatever works for you is fine. But it is a little dishonest to call one technique "Sun Yang" and the other "high stroke, high stress, hard kick." I am quite certain that my swimming is much closer to being low stress than yours' is to being like Sun Yang's.

Fair enough. I'll read up on the Feldenkrais method and do a little research. May even try it myself and I will let you know what I think. BRB

OK, so I've done a little research and it appears the Feldenkrais Method is a teaching/learning methodology which can be applied to learning or teaching swim technique. So maybe you can become more aware of your present technique and learn to relax and focus better using the method. It's a bit like learning to very carefully and precisely form letters by tracing the dashed-line outlines of letters or words in grammar school. You would not write that way later in life when an important term paper is due and the sun is coming up. So practice your Total Immersion inspired technique through Feldenkrais Method pedagogy all you want, but the clock will be the BS meter at the end of your lane in training and your posted swim split and overall finish time serve the same function race day.

Now it's your turn. Use the search function to look up past Gerry Rodriguez posts on this forum Then look up his resume and report back what you think.

I agree,lol! It is a"dishonest"to make the hard and fast(ha ha)distinction of these styles. Most swimmers are a mix of these techniques. As mention on my other post I connect my style to the"Feldenkrais Method". The idea is that I start with a slow,relaxed,accurate motion. As I get better it is STILL slow,relaxed and accurate relative to the high stroke method. I am NOT getting faster because I am doing more strokes but because I am doing each stroke better! It like comparing Mariano Rivera vs. the latest phenom. The phenom throws harder but he uses a lot more energy and often injures his arm. If I were learning to pitch I would start very slowly and copy Rivera. As I mastered his style to some extent I would speed up and of course add my own touches,lol.

Nice post, lol!

Sun Yang is an outlier. Even among world class 1500m swimmers he is an outlier.

I have said it before, and will say it again. Total Immersion is a style of swimming that allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim. It is a very solid approach to getting AOS (Adult Onset Swimmers) to be a little more comfortable in the water. It is not, however, a good stroke for going fast unless you happen to be one of the 1 in 50 people that it "clicks" for. I would refer you to the posts that Gerry made in the "Terry Laughlin debate" thread, but you already tried to revive that (badly) with your TI support, so you obviously ignored what he said there, too. (By the way, high arm turnover does not necessarily also mean hard kicking.)

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

One of Gerry's tenants seems to be"your hand never stops moving". In my opinion and the Feldenkrais method in order for just about ANY sporting technique to work right your body has to come to a complete stop. The top of the golf swing,pitchers wind up,tennis stroke etc. In swimming your momentum is still carrying you forward but you arms and hands are totally relaxed and not doing anything. This may only be a split second but your body re-loads,re-balances,re-sets and then you snap your other arm forward turn your shoulders and pause,re-set and re-balance for a split second again. Practice that over and over and you get faster and faster but still stay relaxed. You can say I am slow but I was slow before and it took me twice as much work,lol.

Really happy to hear you've made progress with your swimming and I hope that continues. Just don't follow the wrong gods home on this one because you'll find they live on a dead end street and you'll have a long way to backtrack.

BTW, Paul is not dead...I saw him in concert a few years ago and I swear, it WAS him.

Having read through this thread and seeing it veer off into discussions about Olympic level swimmers, fascinating as they are, I thought I would add my 2c. As an older swimmer, who has swum most of their life, I think there is some correlation between strength and speed. I read this thread earlier in the week and tried out something at a practice swim. I swim twice a week topping out at 6,000m

To put it in triathlon AG'ers terms I swam a timed 750 (25m pool, open turns) an used a pull buoy to simulate a wetsuit. Changed my normal 15 strokes (each arm = 1 stroke) to a much shorter pull and closer to 20 strokes per length. The results were quite good, for me, as I swam a time similar to what I would have five years ago. Considering I am on the declining side of performance, this was surprising. The time is unimportant (it would be AG FOP in any local Tri, but would not impress a "real" swimmer). What was important is that for me, it worked.

Most don't have the time or aptitude to develop the muscles and swim levels of the born swimmer and the reason they are swimming AG competition is because they are aging. So I would have to say, it works. Raise your stroke rate, breathe more, pull less, but often. Worked for me. I also discovered that my normal tempo is sort of a Bob Marley reggae beat and the faster tempo was a little more AC/DC for those who swim with music in their heads. :)

Try it, you'll like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpbl9m8F7c
Here's what it looks like to do about 105 strokes per minute.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

FWIW, my best 100 free time was 50.9 (from a relay start). My 1000 time was holding 56-mid/100. Phelps is not a distance swimmer, especially at this point in his career. 41 is a time typically done by a pure sprinter. If you take a guy with no fast twitch muscles, the 5-second difference holds close to true, in general.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

This video illustrates exactly what I was thinking; the guy in the video swam a 4:24.65 for the 500, averaging 53/100 with about 18 str/lngth. Allowing about 3.25 sec/turn, that's 18 str/10 sec of actually stroking ==> 108 str/min. The guy looks like he's going all out the whole way, which is what 108 str/min would be for me, an all-out sprint which I couldn't hold for more than 100 scy. Funny, the guy swims very much like I do, i.e. not much kick and fast turnover rate. It's just that my "fast" 500 turnover rate is about 75 str/min, and hence my "fast" 500 is about 35% slower than his. If I could develop a big enough aerobic engine to sustain that kind of turnover rate, sure, I could go 4:24 for a 500 too. Unfortunately, that's an extremely big IF.

In any case, the guy in the video has, IMO, a textbook stroke and would be an excellent model for anyone. He's very smooth for such a fast pace.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Here is a very interesting article from SwimSmooth just hitting my inbox this morning regarding SPM, as I'm sure it did for many ST'ers. I found their same findings when finally defeating over gliding a couple of years ago....what a joy. I'm sure it's not nearly scientific enough for much of ST thus making it garbage, but I'm a bit partial to SwimSmooth's approach as it took me from a nearly 3 decades of despising swimming to my fav sport of all three.

YMMV....enjoy

http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-and-efficiency.html

So I counted (listed by the 25)
25=15 strokes
50=18 strokes
75=18 strokes
100=18 strokes (time at this point 50.77, strokes so far= 69)
125=18 strokes
150= 18 stokes

Total stokes for 150=105
Time for 150= 1:17.24

Without actually doing further calculations, he is not doing 105 strokes per minute. Best guess that he is at 80, near what the OP is asking. (He is only doing 2 stokes per 25 more than me.) However, it seems that 17-18 strokes per 25 is his norm, regardless of speed. If he were to do an interval of 100s on 1:00, he'd be at 80 strokes. If he were to slow down to 100s on 1:15, he'd be at 80 strokes for the 100. I think that most swimmers are consistent in this way.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

How fast can you swim a 500 or 1000 yards?

Here is an article on this very subject from the folks at swim smooth: http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-and-efficiency.html

Interesting... They did a study in an endless pool where the speed was set to a constant 1:40/100m. One of the things not being talked about in this thread is the stroke length. and how most swimmers shorten their stroke length when increasing stroke rate and lengthen it with slower rates. Anyway interesting article....

"Without actually doing further calculations,,,"

Well you need to do those further calculations. See Eric Mulk's numbers (post #72) for the same video and you'll see what you are missing.

I think you're missing my point: The guy is consistent at strokes per length, not strokes per minute. He is fast and so is his turnover rate. However, if he were to slow down say from ~51-53 seconds per 100 to 60 seconds per 100, his turnover rate would not increase, it would actually slow down. That would result in a decreased number of strokes per minute (and he'd still be fast by our standards).

In swimming, just as in running, technique is very personal. We all have an optimal efficiency level that may or may not be the same as the guy who set the world record. A blanket statement of, "Look at this guy. He's fast. Do what he's doing and you'll be fast too" is not the best way to analyze your stroke. This whole concept reminds me of those who advocate that you need to increase your cadence while running or cycling. It may not work or even be the best idea for you.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

You should do further calculations. Start by subtracting the time he is not actually taking strokes.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Busted! What you meant was: "I did the 400 free relay right after swimming the 400IM once in college and split a 50.9 because I was very tired and it was in season at a duel meet. But I have been 9:25 in the 1000, which is really fast and I know that by putting my time in a per/100 and mentioning the relatively slow 100 free split it won't look like a back door brag."

Well played, JK. But I am on to you!

What was your 200 time? I bet it was faster than 1:44.0 meaning you actually have been faster than the 50.9 split. Really I don't think the 5/sec 100 holds true for anyone, not even Jordan.

And i will add that if a guy that does a low 4 minute 400IM LCM, he is a distance swimmer. I have no doubt that if phelps swam the 1000, he would do one of the top 10 times of all time. JK may not consider him a distance swimmer just because he specializes in middle distance events, but that does not mean he could not bust out a spectacular 1000swim. I'm sure he probably has some workout times in long swims that would boggle the mind..

And Jordan who was not a swimmer is a great comparison since he did both those swims on the same day. Comparing events from different times and meets is not quite as good, I agree, there is probably no one that swims a 5 second gap from 100 to 1000 in the elite ranks. And that assumes that they did a proper 100 somewhere in taper mode..

Funny you should mention Paul is Dead!! The black hole of Slowtwitch is NOTHING compared to the MEGA deep black hole of Paul is Dead and other celebrity replacements!Go to"Paul is Dead:Miss Him Miss Him"or"Nothing is Real:Paul Was Replaced"or"The Doppelganger and Identity Research Society". Don't be suprised if they carry you out on a stretcher 6 months later,lol. I post on those websites under the same hotman637.

Absolutely wrong.
50.9 was a relay split, shaved and tapered - plenty of rest.
1:43.5 200 - relay, shaved and tapered
4:32 - 500
9:26 - 1000, never swam faster tapered.

5 second rule definitely applies for a guy like me with no speed, no tricks.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Monty,
See my previous post. Not sure about Jordan as I've never trained with him, but I suspect he would be with me 200 yards into a swim, but maybe 1-2 minutes back after a mile. I'd be surprised if I could beat Jordan (or any other pro) by more than half a second in a 50 free.
As for Phelps, he is the exception, not a rule. He is a world class swimmer at nearly any event - 100 free or 1000 free. Most guys that go 41 can't break 10:00 in a 1000. Conversely, most guys under 9:20 in the 1000 can't break 45 in the 100 free. I thought they said that the 5 second rule is for PURE distance swimmers.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Ya, I just read the same article. Not really surprising to me as I have to greatly increase my stroke rater to swim faster, as in from 15-16 str/25 scy swimming easy in warm-up to 18-19 swimming hard. In str/min, that's about 52-54 swimming easy and 72-75 swimming hard in a 500 or 1000. Going all out in a 100, maybe 82-86 str/min at best.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

John: I googled you, and then remembered that I had done so once before and immediately realized my mistake. I put the odds that what you were saying as true at about 1 in a 100,000. Those odds are about right, it just happens that you are that 1.

The only guy I can think of like you is Mark Leonard from Eastern Michigan. At the same meet he was right around 15:00 in the 1650 but didn't break 1:40 in the 200.

SO you basically have to go out at your best 100 all out pace in order to do that 200. Now that is what i call a diesel motor..

There was a USAS study circulating a while ago talking about how when they broke down the stroke of national team level backstrokers into components, their backstroke (the other long axis stroke) had significantly less rotation than what conventional wisdom said they should have.

Wouldn't be surprised if rotation was similarly over-rated for freestyle. Too much rotation is energy spent sloshing side to side instead of using that energy to move forward in the water.

Me, I've always been a high rotation swimmer. More so since I switched to tris because I just don't have the arm strength to pull off a longer stroke that requires so much more power per arm movement.

Maybe someone addressed it above, but I really think you have to take kicking out of the equation to test for stroke efficiency as they did.

If you allow someone to kick as much as they want while forcing them to decrease stroke rate while holding speed constant, they will definitely ramp up kicking to compensate, which understandably will elevate HR more since kicking will do so much more than the arms will for a given speed increase.

To me, their results really just illustrate the effect of kicking more, not the effect of stroke efficiency.

You do realise your two quotes"rotation was similarly over-rated for freestyle"and"I've always been a high rotation swimmer"contradict each other. If by rotation you mean TURN your shoulders(up to 90 degrees)then"rotation"CANNOT be overrated IMO,lol! In order to do low stroke swimming effectively you HAVE to rotate your shoulders,IMO! You rotate your shoulders then pause and"feel"your balance point then snap your other arm straight ahead(that is what supplies your power NOT your pull)then rotate your shoulders again. Your arm strength and leg strength do not have to be that great because you are not"pulling"your through the water you are pushing! That is another reason you turn your shoulders,a body facing sideways is far easier to push then one that is"flat".

That's why Mark and I both had the same best event - the 25K.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Not that anyone necessarily cares, but I'm going to stick with my low stroke count and Total Immersion focused swimming. For me, the goal is to have a fast triathlon, not a fast swim. After only a year, Total Immersion has gotten me to the point where I can do an effortless 1500m swim in 28 to 29 minutes. I know many will think that is ridiculously slow, but I exit the water feeling fresh as a daisy and ready to rock the bike.

If I jacked up my stroke rate and started swimming like a madman, maybe I'd be able to drop my times to the 24-25 minute range. Maybe. However, I also may take a big hit on the bike and run, leaving to a slower overall time. This hit would occur both due to the fact that I'd be able to spend less time training on the bike and run, and due to the fact that I'd exit the water with less gas in the tank on race day. Besides, I don't think it's out of the question that I might be able to shave another 1-2 off my time if I stick with Total Immersion, even with my extremely low, over-gliding stroke count.

For us age groupers, it's a question of how we're going to spend our limited time. Should I spend the next year busting my butt in the pool using a super-high stroke rate to shave 4 minutes off my swim, or should I be content with an easy-as-pie Total Immersion 29 minute swim, which frees me up to torture myself on the bike and run with my limited training time and rock the bike and run on race day. Some may say: Just build a bigger engine so you can push the swim as hard as the bike and run. But that's what I'm trying to do during my 8 hours of training each and every week. It's just that the engine I'm building is one that will push the bike and rock the run, not one that will lead to a killer swim.

As the end of the day, I just think I'll be far faster overall with a relaxed swim followed by a killer bike and run, than trying to turn myself into Michael Phelps in the next 6 months.

---

“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu

Here's a Swimsmooth blog entry with a little data: http://www.feelforthewater.com.
Here's my swim progression from start to now:
I swam 4-5 times a week on my own without ANY coaching (and now swimming background). All of my 'instruction' was from reading books. Went to IMLP '99 and swam a 1:04. Pretty much followed the same swim program for the next three years, getting it down to 1:01 in 2001 IMCA. Then...I joined a master's group, swam 2 days a week, hardly ever swam over 2500yds per 1-hour workout. Much of that was technique-based and seemed to follow what Total Immersion was doing. I went to IMCdA and swam a 56:57 on about 1/2 of the training.
Fast forward to today, where my next progression is to up my stroke rate, since I have a solid foundation in technique. Personally, I think that's the recipe for great AG swim times if you come from a non-swimming background.

Typo om my part- should have said I've always been a high stroke count swimmer- about 19 strokes/25 yards is typical.

It really isn't all that different than cycling- some people are spinners, and some are mashers. The key to swim success is figuring out whether spinning or mashing works best for you specifically.

Me, I'm a spinner, and trying to mash it means I've got to jack up my kick, and leads to going slower with harder effort. YPhysiologyMV, and mashing may be your bestway of doing things.

Or maybe you'd be better off as a spinner, but you'd never know until yuo tried it. A lot of non-fish could do well by mixing up stroke length and stroke turnover and seeing if they can get things dialed in better during an off-season swim block.

According to the "legendary workout sets" on the USMS web site, MP did a 5000 in 46:34, or 9:18.8/1000 for 5 straight, or 15:22/1650 for 3 in a row, plus a 50. Also, according to USA Swimming's top SCY times, MP is not listed in the 1000 but he is the 8th fastest performer in the 500 free with a 4:10.43 back in Jan 08. Just for the record, Peter Vanderkaay has the AR in 4:08.54 and Tom Dolan has the 3rd fastest time with a 4:08.75 way back in 1995.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I swam this am and tried ncreasing my stroke rate as has been suggested. It just wears me out faster. This is the conclusion I came to, that it's personal just like cadence in biking. When I am swimming good, I'm generally about 14 strokes per 25 yds. If I'm not having a good day it's around 15-16 strokes and im slower.

My question becomes do I continue to work in turnover or keep doing what I'm doing? I can do a 1,000 TT at about 1:21-1:22 per 100. I enjoy swimming and would like to get faster but like most people do not have the time to spend exttra training in the pool.

I swam this am and tried ncreasing my stroke rate as has been suggested. It just wears me out faster. This is the conclusion I came to, that it's personal just like cadence in biking. //

And just like cadence on a bike, you cannot expect any meaningful results on the 1st try. You have to go out and train at the higher cadence for a period of time, let your body adapt, and then see if there is a difference. I always find it funny that people go and try something once, then expect some benefit, in spite of how they have been training. Sometimes there is an immediate benefit, usually in those that are grossly inadequate in their form or style, but to really test something from a pretty good foundation, you will have to go and train differently first. You guys are lucky, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is there for you all to see, virtually "every" OW swim pro uses high turnover rates, so you "know" it is better and something to strive for. You can ignore it and continue on as usual, but you do not have the excuse we had in my day of not really knowing what was optimal. We were the experiments, and the results are now in. Those that argue this point are just ignoring the facts, or too lazy to do something about their situations..

I agree and Ill definitely put forth a better effort, but I swim around 59 for an IM now, while that isn't fast, it's not slow either. So when I speed up my turnover and swim slower as a result its like going backwards. In other words, how much more of a benefit am I going to see? Im guessing not much in the end.

I just read something on this from the guys at Swim Smooth. They took a group of elite swimmers and put them in an endless pool. Pace was set at 1:40/100m. They averaged between 55 and 65 spm. They then had them decrease their spm by 10% and 20% and then increase by 10% and 20%. When they decreased their stroke rate there o2 intake and heart rate increased considerably. When they increased by 10% all indicators stayed about the same (a very alight rise) and at 20% it increased as with decreasing the spm. Their conclussion was that most swimmers will fall in to the stroke rate that works for them. They also said that slowing the rate causes you to kick harder and pull harder to maintain the same pace.

-

---

B.Oliver -My Blog...triguywithavx.wordpress.com
Powered by:
-accelerate3.com coaching-
-**TriSports.com Save 20% Message me for one time use code {restrictions apply...see site)

To me the point of high stroke rate vs. low stroke rate is to get the optimal benefit of each style you must use a DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE. In my opinion to get an optimal result from high stroke rate you have minimal shoulder turn(shoulder turn slows down your stroke rate),you reach up and anchor your hand and pull as hard as you can as fast as you can and kick as hard as you can. That is the high stroke rate technique. The low stroke rate technique is basically the opposite. You turn your shoulders a lot(up to 90 degrees)then pause,find your balance point and snap your arm forward and PUSH your way through the water. That is how you get your power so you don't need a hard pull or kick. Up to now the large majority of triathletes use the high stroke style. As I always said try them both and you decide.

Posted above on this, but it's kind of a 'no duh' finding.

If you tell swimmers to hold the same speed, but stroke LESS, they're going to kick harder to make up for it and/or pull harder on their fewer strokes. In that swimsmooth episode, they found that the swimmers taking less strokes were burning more O2 (or something like that), but that's very easy to explain since they're kicking a lot more to maintain speed (and legs are less energy efficient than the arms in swim.) I don't think you can draw any conclusions as to which is better or which burns more/less energy based upon what they did.

The quote"with the lower stroke rate I'm over-rotating to propel myself through the water"is interesting. That is exactly how to do low stroke swimming,rotate your shoulders,BUT the next step is absolutely CRUCIAL to make it work. After you have rotated your shoulders you have to STOP and find your BALANCE POINT! If you don't find that point you over or under rotate and lose momentum. A great example is Andre Agassi. Just about EVERY time he hits the tennis ball he STOPS,finds his balance point and then blasts the tennis ball. Same with Larry Bird,just before he shoots he stops,finds his balance point,then lets it fly. It is the same with low stroke swimming(you don't have time to do it with high stroke swimming,lol). So to sum up,rotate your shoulders,stop and find your balance point then snap your arm forward and push your way through the water. Repeat as neccessary.

Tom- I've had the day to think about this and I half agree with what Monty says- you can't expect it to feel good after one session. However, based on the very little data you have given, I would say that if you are unwilling to put forth extra time in the water (and at your speed, the ROI wouldn't be worth it anyway), then the best way for you to get faster would be to make sure you have good hydrodynamics (body position) and to swim faster. That means harder intervals. High stroke rate, as in strokes per minute, is a consequence of faster swimming and not a cause.

Think about it... If you are currently doing 15 strokes per 25, that is 60 strokes per hundred (but as Mulk pointed out above, the actual rate is faster due to turning and gliding). You are doing that 100 on ~1:20. Now, if you can get your time down to 1:00 per 100, there is a high probability that you will still be taking 15 +/- 1 strokes per 25. But, your stroke rate per minute has actually increased. The 'best OW swimmers' that others are using as role models are swimming faster than you and I but are probably taking a similar number of strokes (+/- 2) per 25. Their stroke rate is faster because they are faster and not the other way around. (Plus, I'd bet you can find a great number of things that they do better than us instead of focusing on stroke rate.) When they slow down, their stroke rate per minute decreases but their number of strokes per length will be rather consistent. Such is the nature of swimming.

So focus on getting faster. Don't focus on counting strokes or ramping up your stroke rate. The rest will take care of itself.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Wow. This makes it clear you are utterly ignorant and have never sat down and watch a highly successful high turnover swimmer in your life. Spend like 10 seconds watching video of mid-race Laure Manaudou at her peak- she appears to be an utterly indifferent two beat kicker who barely moves her legs at all. It's a highly efficient and deceptive kick, but a very light kick nonetheless compared to the utter motorboat kick you see in a highly successful long stroke guy like Ian Thorpe.

My favorite demo video for this. Laure is second from the camera, and Otylia J., who is a long stroke/high kick swimmer in front of her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oac5nUDns94

The only men here who could match either of these two in the water were the folks who were US Olympic Trials or better in their pure fish days.

I'm with you on this, although ill continue to tinker with the higher stroke rate during warmup. All out I can do a 100 in 1:10. I totally agree on harder intervals. I don't push as much as I shoulda only due to laziness on a sense. Once I gve up the IM and focus on short distance, the swim will be much more of a factor. At that time ill focus more on my swim.

Right now I can get better gains focusing on biking and running for the longer distances. For a short race, knocking 1-2 minutes off is a lot and I can do as easy as taking 1-2 off my 10k time.

In the end I agree with what most people are saying here, but its all individual in the end. Ill continue to tinker and swim straight or at least try. I love swimming and may even take a lesson. I really appreciate everything I have learned on this particular string.

THIS^^^ The guy in the video John Kenney posted, Arthur Fraylor, is doing around 108 str/min but he also doing a 4:24 for his 500. If I could turn over that fast, I too could hold 53 sec per 100, but I just can't turn my arms over fast enough.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Great video selection Jill. If I counted correctly, Laure is taking about 50 str/50m lngth, in a net of about 25 sec, or around 100 str/min. Of course, she's going 1:56 for 200 LCM and setting the WR, so of course she's going to have a high str/min.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Instead of saying"in my opinion"I should of said"in my EXPERIENCE". In other words when I swim the only way to get a good result(and it still lousy)from high stroke swimming is to pull as hard as I can and kick as hard as I can. The problem is I cannot pull or kick that hard,lol! That is why I like my low stroke technique.

John - When you're going 4:30-ish for the 500, is your stroke rate similar???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you need to kick hard in order to get from point A to point B, then you still haven't managed to fix any underlying body position issues.

I maxed out around 95-100 for a red-line effort. I could throw 105-108 strokes, but there would be some slippage at that point and I would lose time. Arthur is the only guy I've ever seen (not to say there aren't others) that high who isn't just "spinning his wheels".

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

My point was I DON"T kick hard! I don't pull hard I don't kick hard. I do my low stroke technique that does not rely on kicking or pulling. I PUSH my way through the water. It is way easier in my experience then a high stroke,hard pull technique. Apparently not everyone kicks hard with the high stroke style. Again,in my experience,that is stll harder then a low stroke,easy kick style.

So...in other words you are taking the path of least resistance and accepting that you are going to have mediocre to poor swim times. That's fine, but to turn around and advocate that for everyone else as you are doing is misinformed at its most charitable.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Thank you,for your post! That is EXACTLY what my technique is,"the path of least resistance"! I spent months and months trying to learn high stroke swimming. In my experience it was way to hard and I was still slow as hell and I just got totally fed up. I went down to the library and found a book on Total Immersion. I said"this looks interesting",but could not figure out what the hell the technique ACTUALLY was. His explanation was way to complicated. So I spent more months trying to figure out what his theory was. I am STILL not sure if mine and his is the same,lol. Anyhow I finally figured out my"path of least resistance"style and it is an easy,relaxing,fun,low stroke,easy pull,easy kick,style. The reason I go on about it is I went through so much hassle just to find out what is,in my experience,an easy,fun way to swim(as opposed to"the path of most resistance"method,lol)is I want everyone to TRY both methods then make up their mind. And also what I said is you can go fast with both methods it just takes more practice to find the"least resistance".

Well stated. For anyone that wants to suck at swimming and put in as little effort as possible to improving, TI is definitely worth the look.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

So, you must be taking around 16 str/lngth, after the first 50, when you settle into your pace???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Most of us do this every single time we get in the water, we just refer to your method as the warmup.

Something like that. Maybe more like 17-18 as I never got much length off my turns.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Yes,I have noticed other swimmers doing my method as a"warmup"or a"drill". They turn on one side then kick for a while then turn on the other side for a while. They are doing my method in SLOW MOTION! I tell them to keep doing it that way but SPEED IT UP,lol. In other words,turn on your side,feel your balance point for a second or two then SNAP your other arm forward and PUSH your way through the water,feel your balance point on your other shoulder and repeat. I find it works best to breath every 2 out of 3 strokes. A few people have listened to me and followed my advice(shocking I know,lol)and they agree it is certainly easier and with practice they are just as fast as before.

"A few people have listened to me and followed my advice(shocking I know,lol)and they agree it is certainly easier and with practice they are just as slow as before."

I fixed that for you... ;)

Thanks!!lol! BUT they are way more relaxed,having more fun,saving their shoulders,doing a lot less strokes,kicking less hard,more relaxed,pulling less hard etc.etc. Maybe none of them will ever be nearly as great a swimmers as many here on Slowtwitch but that sounds impossible anyway,lol!

You all need to get noodles...WAY EASIER...you don't have to kick or pull...hell, you don't even have to "SNAP"...just float and fart in the opposite direction you want to go...this may be WAY more fun as you could also bring a six pack...totally relaxed...

All right hotman, just tell us how fast you are. 15 years ago I was a collegiate HM All-American (D3 and relays only, not individuals) and last week I did 2 x 1500's on 20:00 went 19:25 and 19:14 in meters; right now I am reasonably confident I can break 18:00 in a 1500M swim. In races where I enter in AG, I have never not had the fastest swim in my AG. I've had the fastest overal swim in several triathlons, some of them with more than 1000 entrants. I am pretty decent, but there are lots of guys (and a few gals) who are faster than me, and none of them swim anything like what you are recommending.

So put it out there. You seem to be basing your conclusions on how "fast" you are (calling others slow, really?). So what have you done?

Because triathlon has a relatively low standard for swimming, guys who are the equivalent of 25 minute 5k runners think they actually know something. Thre reason you didn't have success with high stroke rate is because you aren't fit enough.

I already regret getting into this....

Bah. C'mon in, the waters fine... :p

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

You can't really "push" your way through the water, but rather propulsion comes from pulling and kicking. While top coaches may disagree on exactly how to pull and kick most efficiently, they all agree that swimmers are pulling and kicking their way through the water. Swimmers have pull buoys and kick boards, but we do not have any "push buoys" or "push boards". Sorry but that is just the way it is.

Also, that drill you're describing is a kicking drill.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Your quote"the reason you didn't have success with a high stroke rate is because you aren't fit enough"is exactly correct! In my experience to make the high stroke rate work to its potential you have to be really fit,have strong arms and shoulders and have a strong pull and do a lot of strokes,lol. I do not meet those qualifications! I am not young,I am an average athlete at best,my shoulder gets sore,etc. That is why I like the slow stroke method. The POWER from my slow stroke method is from PUSHING through the water so it takes all the stress off my arms and shoulders that happens when you pull hard and fast. A number of people say that is not possible to generate power by pushing, that we HAVE to have a hard pull! My answer to that is get in the water and TRY my technique and see if it works! I admit it is NOT for everyone,that many are better off with the high stroke style. But there is no way to know that for sure until you have done both versions.

You've been describing the swimming equivalent of this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGojEyYBmwc

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Snack chair for the win!!!

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I keep reading your description for the stroke technique you are using but I can't picture it. You've seen the "critique my stroke" videos around here...maybe you could throw one up so we can finally see what you are talking about and maybe understand a little better. No need for professional video, just something that is not too shaky and shows enough footage to give a good look. C'mon now, educate us!

nice video, thanks for the link.

Now I *finally* see how fast swimmers are getting ~17-18 spl, not getting much off turns seems to make a big difference too, at least another spl. Even though Aurthur doesn't get much off his turns they are superfast. His clock (and I guess yours too by extension) is ticking on a different beat for sure.

---

------------------------------------------------------------
some days you're the windshield some days the bug

I don't have a video cam or phone. It would not do you the slightest good to see my stroke anyhow,lol. I show it to people in person and if they don't DO it themselves they will NEVER get it! It is like demonstrating throwing a knuckleball pitch. No matter how many times you watch it it will not tell you how to make the pitch work. As a matter of fact it works very similarly to a knuckleball. With a knuckleball pitch the slower you throw it(up to a point of course)and the less it spins the more it darts and"moves". Why? Because the ball is always finding the"least resistance". It is the same with the low stroke method. The LESS your body moves the quicker it finds the path of least resistance. When you turn your shoulders and put your arm straight in front of you your"path of least resistance"is straight ahead. The trick is to GET IN THE WATER and"feel"the path of least resistance(you can't see it,that is why video is useless). Just like the knuckleball pitch the LESS your body moves side to side on the"balance point"the FASTER IT MOVES FORWARD! It is a magic trick,just like the knuckleball is often called a"trick"pitch. And just like the knuckleball the low stroke method takes WAY less effort and can be just as effective. Look at R.A. Dickey.

Below is Scientific American's description of a knuckleball...lack of rotation allows the movement/drifting...your swimming method is based on your turning and snapping, lots of rotation. Are you trying to swim like a knuckleball? There is not a good correlation of any kind between a knuckle ball and swimming...air and water are not the same... You say they are the same because one darts around to find least resistance while the other moves less...that would actually be the opposite IF anything you said was coherent whatsoever, which it is not... "I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

“Air drags along the smooth parts of a baseball surface, but the seams produce little vortices that allow air to travel more quickly over them. A fastball rotates 16 or 17 times between the pitcher and batter, and the rapid rotation means that the airflow turbulence caused by the seams is pretty evenly spread over the whole ball and the entire trajectory of the throw, so it travels steadily. On the other hand, a knuckleball rotates only one half to one time on its way to the batter, so the airflow turbulence stays on one side of the ball for a while before slowly moving to the other. The ball drifts in the direction of the leading seam, which slowly moves from one side to the other.”

http://www.sportsgrid.com/...ficult-it-is-to-hit/

Well cool Hotman...but as it turns out I was a knuckleball pitcher myself for many years because I didn't have a particularly live arm and it allowed me to punch way above my weight class. So I know how to throw 'em, can explain 'em no problem, and understand enough about the "why" to not need much in that regard either. Oh yeah, and when you know 'em inside out like that, you have a more than fair shot at hitting 'em too. Your analogy is weak at best.

Back to the pool. Video of what you keep trying to describe or give it up. You're not a troll exactly but you know it's nonsense and I know you know that. If this is the extent of your game then I'm done as you've got nothing left but simple repetition of the same old same old.

Your knuckleball analogy is not really appropriate. I'd say the exact opposite is true in swimming. The faster you move through the water, the more "feel" and "grip" you will have on the water, and you'll have less slippage. Think about the relative motion of a swimmer vs. the water. If the swimmer is still, you pull your arm at a certain speed and you lose some. Now, start with an initial velocity and you're more likely to be able to match that same arm speed with the speed of the moving water (no slippage). Remember, the fastest swimmers put their hand in the water in almost exactly the same spot as where they remove it (i.e. holding onto the water).

A good way to simulate this is with paddles and zoomers/fins. Driving your legs increases your speed and it should be easier to pull with the paddles/fins than it would be without the fins (paddles and no fins).

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

YOU CANNOT SEE HOW TO DO TOTAL IMMERSION,LOW STROKE SWIMMING ON VIDEO! Just like if you put on video of you throwing a knuckle ball,I would STILL not know how to throw it because it is based on FEEL just like low stroke swimming. In order to understand what I say you have to DO IT! You understand knuckleball pitching so get in the water and pretend you are a baseball being thrown like a knuckleball. Just like a knuckleball you move slowly doing many less rotations(strokes)per distance but EACH rotation is longer and moves from one shoulder all the way over to the other shoulder FEELING the balance point! Everytime you feel the balance point your body moves into the path of least resistance,just like the ball in a knuckleball pitch. So using minimal effort you get maximum motion. You CANNOT see that on video,you have to feel it!

On the low stroke method paddles and fins just GET IN THE WAY,they really don't help at all,IMO.

As others have mentioned, I think this is because you don't have "feel" for the water. You're not going to "get" it the first time. It's going to take some practice. Most beginners underestimate the amount of time you'd need to put in to really improve.

---

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Done. Have a very nice day, sir.

I was an age group swimmer starting at the age of 6 & swam all the way through college. I now feel dumber for just reading some of the posts on this thread. If you can't break 5 minutes for a 500 yd swim, you need to stop wasting your time on your computer & swim more. You wouldn't know how this feels unless you have done it ;)

I think 5:00 for a 500 might be a tad overly strict. I swam through my first two yrs in college but 5:57 was my best ever 500. Think a person needs a bit of talent to go sub-5, would suggest say 6:00 or even 6:30 as more realistic goal for the vast majority. Of course, opinions will vary on this:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think turningscrews was riffing off the hotman's bass line, which has not changed since the opening note, I might add.

Ya, guess I shouldn't have taken him seriously. I have been following hotman's commentary and agree that he has been very consistent.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So, okay, this is a serious thread BUMP but, I'm also trying to figure this out. I've worked for years at my swim technique and I've been happy with my gradual improvements. Background on me: I'm not fast by any stretch of the imagination. In August I swam 1:13 and change at Ironman Boulder. Last weekend I swam 1:11 and change in Arizona. Recently, I've started noticing in the pool how my body slows down between strokes (before the next catch I can see my body slow down with respect to how quickly the bottom of the pool passes by). I attribute this to an overly long glide in the water OR a too slow cadence (I'm assuming these are the same thing?). I don't think this has just recently crept into my swim, RATHER, I think that I'm now able to critique my swim in ways that I've not previously been able to. Per Devlin's criteria above, I can probably swim my 100 yard efforts at 1:35 repeatedly with 16 to 18 strokes per 25 yard length (no flip turns, just touch and kick off).

Last week, I spoke with a swim coach in Tempe about this and he agreed that this was most probably a cadence issue. Further, he recommended an under-cap metronome that I could gradually adjust to increase cadence. I'd like to know where you Fishies out there stand on this issue. Is this )a metronome) a reasonable way to increase turnover? More importantly, is turnover my problem?

Got video?

If you are doing 16-18 strokes per 25 at 1:35 pace, then I'd say tryout turnover is definitely on the low side. However, the question is would increasing turnover make you faster? If you are decelerating on easpch stroke, then yes.

You have a couple of options. Actually more than that, so pick and choose your favorites or do all of them..

1 tempo trainer. I've never used one, but they can be effective.
2 finis agility paddles. They won't stay on properly if you try to overglide, highly recommended. I love mine, they really force you to get right into the catch.
3. Fist drill. Again, forces you to maintain tempo, any pauses in the stroke really make you slow down.

There are other things as well that I'm not thinking of right now, but that's a start.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

You could go the tech route and buy the Finis metronome but that is a real late-comer to the whole tempo side of swimming, and really this is just another gadget to fool with, learn to use, try to syn your stroke with the beeps, etc. Or you could just use the "old-school solution", which has been used for, oh I don't know exactly, but around the last 100 yrs or so before that gadget came along. During the entire 20th century, swimmers decided on their best turnover rate simply by swimming all-out sprints of 25 to 50 yds/m, and the 20th century guys and girls went pretty damn fast. If you do these sprints and truly try to turn over your arms as fast as you can, and do these sprints as your only workout of say 30-45 min, after about 5 or 6 sessions your body will have forgotten all about the "stroke gap" you currently have. After say 6 x 40 min sprint sessions, you should be good to go, and then gradually add in 100s, 150s, 200s, etc, while keeping your stroke rate as high as you can for the given distance.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've recently just started to play around with the metronome recently. I've been trying it out open-water playing around with what feels like my natural stroke rate, then bumping it up 2 spm each time both with the swell, and against (assuming the biggest difference would come when fighting the current). I have a ~500m stretch of beach that I go back and forth along and was able to compare my times. I would say my steady long distance (IM) stroke rate would be around 68 spm, so I tried intervals with 70, 72 and 74 spm. The first time I did it 70 felt like the sweet spot with my times getting faster, but I actually got a little slower as I picked up my stroke rate beyond that. I think I had a tendancy to let my arm slip through the water (dropping the elbows) a little just to be able to keep up with beeps. I tried it again this week and 72 spm was the sweet spot, but I really focused on my catch. 72 also felt like a good tempo HIM effort for me as well. Like another poster said, I probably give up a little on the back end of the stroke when I increase the stroke rate. In the pool I finish some of my longer sets with 25s where I swim at 80spm. I don't time them, but it sure doesn't feel 'fast', just like the water gets a whole lot harder to swim through!

A dead spot in your stroke most likely won't be cured by increasing stroke rate alone. If you want to eliminate a pause, try the ankle strap - also helps a ton with body position. I've been doing a ton of ankle strap stuff over the last couple months after never trying it before. It takes a lot of time and effort, but I have progressed from hardly being able to make it through 25m without dragging my legs along the bottom of the pool (unless I used a pb) to swimming 5 or 6 sets of 4 x 50m and last week I finally felt like I was getting the hang of it. If you have a dead spot in your stroke you will find out very fast! Another month of using the strap a ton and I'll do a 400m TT to see if I've improved. I'm usually just under 5:30 (SCM) and my goal is to crack 5:20.

FWIW I am an adult onset swimmer in my 6th season in the sport and usually FOP. 1 hr flat for IM swim a few seasons back (wetsuit), and 27:15 for 70.3WC (probably could have gone a little quicker but got a terrible start line position 3 or 4 rows from the front and by the time I actually got some water to swim in the fast swimmers were long gone and I ended up pulling the next train instead of getting a little help!).

So you're taking 18 strokes in 23 seconds? even with a 3 seconds pull out, you're still well under the Mendoza line of 1 stroke per second. You are well under the expected stroke count for the data I have compiled over the years.

While not necessary, I have had a couple of swimmers with very good success using the tempo trainer to increase swim cadence.

In our squad, we base things off of a 500 yard swim. In your case you would hold the 18 strokes per length but swim 50s or 75s 2 or 3 seconds faster than your 500 pace.

McBroom destroyed Vendt's 2k (y) time. Spilt 14.43 at 1650.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Ya, I saw that, really impressive!!! It will be very interesting to see what he does at the scm worlds. Last time I checked, Hackett still held the 1500 scm record at 14:10, set back in 2001.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Cochrane is swimming Doha as well, should be good. Both under 14.30 IMO.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Is Sun Yang still suspended??? Seems like he was out until 2015 last i heard.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

He swam at Asian games.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Sounds like fun. Think I will give this a go.

Banned for a measly 3 months for using Trimetazidine what a joke. Clearly the Chinese don't take doping enforcement seriously.

Man, the Chinese really know how to keep a lid on it. I will be surprised if Yang repeats in Rio. I don't think he is going to be any faster and he gave everyone 4 years to raise their bars to his level. Few can, but someone will. The "rumor on the deck," is that Yang likes to party.

be nice to see Ryan Cochrane win, but he might be too old. not counting him out though.

I really like the way McBroom has been progressing, as well as the young Aussie (Harrison??) and there's the Italian guy (forget his name now, too lazy to look it up)

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Klehner posted a link to this thread in the latest DPS thread and i read through it all over the past day or two. You were just lamenting hotman's absence in the greatest trolls thread so here he is in all his hot-titude in this thread. "Don't pull hard, just THRUST!!!" Oh, those were the ST glory days. :)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Not necessary on point to this thread, but as a sucky swimmer and decent runner, I will tell everyone that saying "just get more distance per stroke" is the same as telling a slower runner to "just run faster each mile".

The reason I don't get more DPS is because I suck at swimming. Whatever it is that makes me slow in the water is also the reason why I take 25 strokes per 25 yards. Telling me to get more DPS is telling me to just swim faster.

I CAN'T.

Yeah this. If you're not a great swimmer, stroke rate is probably way down the list of things to fix.

Yeah, it's kind of like having this conversation with a runner...

Helper: You can get your stride rate up to 180 per minute can't you?
Runner: I think so, yeah. That's pretty easy.
Helper: Well, now you've just got to get your stride length up to that of a world-class Kenyan and you're on your way!
Runner: Of course! I get it now. Thank you.