Here is an article on this very subject from the folks at swim smooth: http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-and-efficiency.html

Interesting... They did a study in an endless pool where the speed was set to a constant 1:40/100m. One of the things not being talked about in this thread is the stroke length. and how most swimmers shorten their stroke length when increasing stroke rate and lengthen it with slower rates. Anyway interesting article....

"Without actually doing further calculations,,,"

Well you need to do those further calculations. See Eric Mulk's numbers (post #72) for the same video and you'll see what you are missing.

I think you're missing my point: The guy is consistent at strokes per length, not strokes per minute. He is fast and so is his turnover rate. However, if he were to slow down say from ~51-53 seconds per 100 to 60 seconds per 100, his turnover rate would not increase, it would actually slow down. That would result in a decreased number of strokes per minute (and he'd still be fast by our standards).

In swimming, just as in running, technique is very personal. We all have an optimal efficiency level that may or may not be the same as the guy who set the world record. A blanket statement of, "Look at this guy. He's fast. Do what he's doing and you'll be fast too" is not the best way to analyze your stroke. This whole concept reminds me of those who advocate that you need to increase your cadence while running or cycling. It may not work or even be the best idea for you.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

You should do further calculations. Start by subtracting the time he is not actually taking strokes.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Busted! What you meant was: "I did the 400 free relay right after swimming the 400IM once in college and split a 50.9 because I was very tired and it was in season at a duel meet. But I have been 9:25 in the 1000, which is really fast and I know that by putting my time in a per/100 and mentioning the relatively slow 100 free split it won't look like a back door brag."

Well played, JK. But I am on to you!

What was your 200 time? I bet it was faster than 1:44.0 meaning you actually have been faster than the 50.9 split. Really I don't think the 5/sec 100 holds true for anyone, not even Jordan.

And i will add that if a guy that does a low 4 minute 400IM LCM, he is a distance swimmer. I have no doubt that if phelps swam the 1000, he would do one of the top 10 times of all time. JK may not consider him a distance swimmer just because he specializes in middle distance events, but that does not mean he could not bust out a spectacular 1000swim. I'm sure he probably has some workout times in long swims that would boggle the mind..

And Jordan who was not a swimmer is a great comparison since he did both those swims on the same day. Comparing events from different times and meets is not quite as good, I agree, there is probably no one that swims a 5 second gap from 100 to 1000 in the elite ranks. And that assumes that they did a proper 100 somewhere in taper mode..

Funny you should mention Paul is Dead!! The black hole of Slowtwitch is NOTHING compared to the MEGA deep black hole of Paul is Dead and other celebrity replacements!Go to"Paul is Dead:Miss Him Miss Him"or"Nothing is Real:Paul Was Replaced"or"The Doppelganger and Identity Research Society". Don't be suprised if they carry you out on a stretcher 6 months later,lol. I post on those websites under the same hotman637.

Absolutely wrong.
50.9 was a relay split, shaved and tapered - plenty of rest.
1:43.5 200 - relay, shaved and tapered
4:32 - 500
9:26 - 1000, never swam faster tapered.

5 second rule definitely applies for a guy like me with no speed, no tricks.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Monty,
See my previous post. Not sure about Jordan as I've never trained with him, but I suspect he would be with me 200 yards into a swim, but maybe 1-2 minutes back after a mile. I'd be surprised if I could beat Jordan (or any other pro) by more than half a second in a 50 free.
As for Phelps, he is the exception, not a rule. He is a world class swimmer at nearly any event - 100 free or 1000 free. Most guys that go 41 can't break 10:00 in a 1000. Conversely, most guys under 9:20 in the 1000 can't break 45 in the 100 free. I thought they said that the 5 second rule is for PURE distance swimmers.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Ya, I just read the same article. Not really surprising to me as I have to greatly increase my stroke rater to swim faster, as in from 15-16 str/25 scy swimming easy in warm-up to 18-19 swimming hard. In str/min, that's about 52-54 swimming easy and 72-75 swimming hard in a 500 or 1000. Going all out in a 100, maybe 82-86 str/min at best.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

John: I googled you, and then remembered that I had done so once before and immediately realized my mistake. I put the odds that what you were saying as true at about 1 in a 100,000. Those odds are about right, it just happens that you are that 1.

The only guy I can think of like you is Mark Leonard from Eastern Michigan. At the same meet he was right around 15:00 in the 1650 but didn't break 1:40 in the 200.

SO you basically have to go out at your best 100 all out pace in order to do that 200. Now that is what i call a diesel motor..

There was a USAS study circulating a while ago talking about how when they broke down the stroke of national team level backstrokers into components, their backstroke (the other long axis stroke) had significantly less rotation than what conventional wisdom said they should have.

Wouldn't be surprised if rotation was similarly over-rated for freestyle. Too much rotation is energy spent sloshing side to side instead of using that energy to move forward in the water.

Me, I've always been a high rotation swimmer. More so since I switched to tris because I just don't have the arm strength to pull off a longer stroke that requires so much more power per arm movement.

Maybe someone addressed it above, but I really think you have to take kicking out of the equation to test for stroke efficiency as they did.

If you allow someone to kick as much as they want while forcing them to decrease stroke rate while holding speed constant, they will definitely ramp up kicking to compensate, which understandably will elevate HR more since kicking will do so much more than the arms will for a given speed increase.

To me, their results really just illustrate the effect of kicking more, not the effect of stroke efficiency.

You do realise your two quotes"rotation was similarly over-rated for freestyle"and"I've always been a high rotation swimmer"contradict each other. If by rotation you mean TURN your shoulders(up to 90 degrees)then"rotation"CANNOT be overrated IMO,lol! In order to do low stroke swimming effectively you HAVE to rotate your shoulders,IMO! You rotate your shoulders then pause and"feel"your balance point then snap your other arm straight ahead(that is what supplies your power NOT your pull)then rotate your shoulders again. Your arm strength and leg strength do not have to be that great because you are not"pulling"your through the water you are pushing! That is another reason you turn your shoulders,a body facing sideways is far easier to push then one that is"flat".

That's why Mark and I both had the same best event - the 25K.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Not that anyone necessarily cares, but I'm going to stick with my low stroke count and Total Immersion focused swimming. For me, the goal is to have a fast triathlon, not a fast swim. After only a year, Total Immersion has gotten me to the point where I can do an effortless 1500m swim in 28 to 29 minutes. I know many will think that is ridiculously slow, but I exit the water feeling fresh as a daisy and ready to rock the bike.

If I jacked up my stroke rate and started swimming like a madman, maybe I'd be able to drop my times to the 24-25 minute range. Maybe. However, I also may take a big hit on the bike and run, leaving to a slower overall time. This hit would occur both due to the fact that I'd be able to spend less time training on the bike and run, and due to the fact that I'd exit the water with less gas in the tank on race day. Besides, I don't think it's out of the question that I might be able to shave another 1-2 off my time if I stick with Total Immersion, even with my extremely low, over-gliding stroke count.

For us age groupers, it's a question of how we're going to spend our limited time. Should I spend the next year busting my butt in the pool using a super-high stroke rate to shave 4 minutes off my swim, or should I be content with an easy-as-pie Total Immersion 29 minute swim, which frees me up to torture myself on the bike and run with my limited training time and rock the bike and run on race day. Some may say: Just build a bigger engine so you can push the swim as hard as the bike and run. But that's what I'm trying to do during my 8 hours of training each and every week. It's just that the engine I'm building is one that will push the bike and rock the run, not one that will lead to a killer swim.

As the end of the day, I just think I'll be far faster overall with a relaxed swim followed by a killer bike and run, than trying to turn myself into Michael Phelps in the next 6 months.

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“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu

Here's a Swimsmooth blog entry with a little data: http://www.feelforthewater.com.
Here's my swim progression from start to now:
I swam 4-5 times a week on my own without ANY coaching (and now swimming background). All of my 'instruction' was from reading books. Went to IMLP '99 and swam a 1:04. Pretty much followed the same swim program for the next three years, getting it down to 1:01 in 2001 IMCA. Then...I joined a master's group, swam 2 days a week, hardly ever swam over 2500yds per 1-hour workout. Much of that was technique-based and seemed to follow what Total Immersion was doing. I went to IMCdA and swam a 56:57 on about 1/2 of the training.
Fast forward to today, where my next progression is to up my stroke rate, since I have a solid foundation in technique. Personally, I think that's the recipe for great AG swim times if you come from a non-swimming background.

Typo om my part- should have said I've always been a high stroke count swimmer- about 19 strokes/25 yards is typical.

It really isn't all that different than cycling- some people are spinners, and some are mashers. The key to swim success is figuring out whether spinning or mashing works best for you specifically.

Me, I'm a spinner, and trying to mash it means I've got to jack up my kick, and leads to going slower with harder effort. YPhysiologyMV, and mashing may be your bestway of doing things.

Or maybe you'd be better off as a spinner, but you'd never know until yuo tried it. A lot of non-fish could do well by mixing up stroke length and stroke turnover and seeing if they can get things dialed in better during an off-season swim block.

According to the "legendary workout sets" on the USMS web site, MP did a 5000 in 46:34, or 9:18.8/1000 for 5 straight, or 15:22/1650 for 3 in a row, plus a 50. Also, according to USA Swimming's top SCY times, MP is not listed in the 1000 but he is the 8th fastest performer in the 500 free with a 4:10.43 back in Jan 08. Just for the record, Peter Vanderkaay has the AR in 4:08.54 and Tom Dolan has the 3rd fastest time with a 4:08.75 way back in 1995.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I swam this am and tried ncreasing my stroke rate as has been suggested. It just wears me out faster. This is the conclusion I came to, that it's personal just like cadence in biking. When I am swimming good, I'm generally about 14 strokes per 25 yds. If I'm not having a good day it's around 15-16 strokes and im slower.

My question becomes do I continue to work in turnover or keep doing what I'm doing? I can do a 1,000 TT at about 1:21-1:22 per 100. I enjoy swimming and would like to get faster but like most people do not have the time to spend exttra training in the pool.

I swam this am and tried ncreasing my stroke rate as has been suggested. It just wears me out faster. This is the conclusion I came to, that it's personal just like cadence in biking. //

And just like cadence on a bike, you cannot expect any meaningful results on the 1st try. You have to go out and train at the higher cadence for a period of time, let your body adapt, and then see if there is a difference. I always find it funny that people go and try something once, then expect some benefit, in spite of how they have been training. Sometimes there is an immediate benefit, usually in those that are grossly inadequate in their form or style, but to really test something from a pretty good foundation, you will have to go and train differently first. You guys are lucky, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is there for you all to see, virtually "every" OW swim pro uses high turnover rates, so you "know" it is better and something to strive for. You can ignore it and continue on as usual, but you do not have the excuse we had in my day of not really knowing what was optimal. We were the experiments, and the results are now in. Those that argue this point are just ignoring the facts, or too lazy to do something about their situations..

I agree and Ill definitely put forth a better effort, but I swim around 59 for an IM now, while that isn't fast, it's not slow either. So when I speed up my turnover and swim slower as a result its like going backwards. In other words, how much more of a benefit am I going to see? Im guessing not much in the end.