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High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers

 

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gjohnson

Dec 11, 12 8:16

Post #1 of 144 (8041 views)
High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers Quote | Reply

I'm currious to know whether any age groupers with a limited swimming background and limited time to train have sucessfully used a high swimming stroke rate to improve their swim. Something like 80 strokes per minute.

The total immersion folks claim that age groupers with limited time to train shouldn't use a high stroke rate because it takes too much time to effectively develop and will kill your bike and run on race day. They advocate a rate around 55 strokes a minute, or even slower.

However, I also think there's a lot to be said for needing a high stroke rate to swim fast. I find that with the lower stroke rate I'm over-rotating to propel myself through the water, which gets me out of alignment and lead to slower swimming.

Is it possible to swim fast using a high stroke rate with only 2-3 swims per week? And will the higher swim rate lead to a slower bike and run on race day? Any age grouper will no swimming background and limited time sucessfully pull this off?
“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu


orphious

Dec 11, 12 8:18

Post #2 of 144 (8027 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I find that triathletes would be better served to increase their distance per stroke and then worry about increasing their stroke rate. Increasing both will obviously make anyone faster.

Increasing stroke rate alone may not make you faster if you dont get any distance in your stroke. You can stroke as fast you want and get no where,.


(This post was edited by orphious on Dec 11, 12 8:20)


Meulen

Dec 11, 12 8:20

Post #3 of 144 (8016 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [orphious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

orphious wrote:
I find that triathletes would be better served to increase their distance per stroke and then worry about increasing their stroke rate. Increasing both will obviously make anyone faster.

I think that's kind of a given, but maybe the best question is when to start focusing on stroke rate and what to focus on bringing it too?


I live my life one triathlon at a time, Nothing else matters.....
Follow me on twitter @BMeulen403


Tri-Banter

Dec 11, 12 8:24

Post #4 of 144 (8004 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.

____________________________________
Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/


Devlin

Dec 11, 12 8:30

Post #5 of 144 (7990 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Tri-Banter] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.

And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John


Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |


Big

Dec 11, 12 8:39

Post #6 of 144 (7948 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Devlin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mess around with both...There is too high and there is too low...at the end of the day...get in the pool an keep moving/rotating back and forth evenly with good body position...without any big pauses and/or breaks in your stroke...focusing on any one aspect of your stroke is likely to mess things up...Drills and other overexagerations of the stroke are good for helping you feel the water and point out areas of weakness, but shouldnt be your focus with swimming...If you are overgliding then doing some sets where you pick up your stroke rate would be very beneficial...Just keep in mind it isn't just how fast your arms move...it also has to be connected to the timing of the rotation (and the amount of rotation)...this is why you can't just make wholesale changes without making sure it is smooth and you can feel the water...



Balance, rotation, and rhythm are what make great swimmers....


Tri-Banter

Dec 11, 12 8:43

Post #7 of 144 (7929 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Devlin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Devlin wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.


And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John

I admit to having a better than average flip turn. However, when I swim in lcm, my cadence becomes ~38-40 strokes per 50 and interval is a little slower. However, it's my stroke rate per length is rather consistent regardless of speed. To drop down to 85 strokes per min, I'd need to be doing sub :55s per 100.

____________________________________
Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/


duffman

Dec 11, 12 8:44

Post #8 of 144 (7925 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The best open water swimmers use a high stroke rate. High stroke rates combined with breathing every stroke cycle will get you more oxygen, which is likely to be a limiter for endurance swimming (even then you'll get less air than running/cycling). Having said that I would not sacrifice technique for stroke rate as a beginning swimmer. Develop a long and powerful stroke and then work on the rate.

My $0.02
__________________________

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klehner

Dec 11, 12 8:57

Post #9 of 144 (7880 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gjohnson wrote:
I'm currious to know whether any age groupers with a limited swimming background and limited time to train have sucessfully used a high swimming stroke rate to improve their swim. Something like 80 strokes per minute.

The total immersion folks claim that age groupers with limited time to train shouldn't use a high stroke rate because it takes too much time to effectively develop and will kill your bike and run on race day. They advocate a rate around 55 strokes a minute, or even slower.

However, I also think there's a lot to be said for needing a high stroke rate to swim fast. I find that with the lower stroke rate I'm over-rotating to propel myself through the water, which gets me out of alignment and lead to slower swimming.

Is it possible to swim fast using a high stroke rate with only 2-3 swims per week? And will the higher swim rate lead to a slower bike and run on race day? Any age grouper will no swimming background and limited time sucessfully pull this off?

That would be me, assuming reasonable values of "swim fast" and "successfully." But I may be a serious outlier, so YMMV.

http://s194.beta.photobucket.com/....html?sort=3&o=0 shows me doing a 100yd sprint from a wall start in about :57, using 19-21 strokes per length. I think my stroke rate approached 100spm at points. It may look like crappy swimming, but I have been beaten out of the water in my AG in a race about twice in the past decade (and both were in the only half IMs I did). I feel fine out of the water, and can hammer the bike/run immediately.

I started swimming at age 26 (wow, more than a quarter century ago!), and had a ridiculously high turnover from the very beginning. While I started out with masters swimming, I only once was over 20,000yds in a given week those first years. I only swim about three times per week these days, (Sunday was 3200scy, yesterday was 2300scy), but every set I do is done as hard as I can do it.

I see a number of types of swimmers in my morning group:

- Ex-swimmers: lower turnover, lots of kicking, excellent streamlining, long glide off the wall, fast
- Ex-Channel swimmer: high turnover, lots of kicking (but she's short), fast
- triathletes: low turnover, too much glide, crappy leg position, slow
- me: no glide, no kick, high turnover, "fast"

I typically hold 20-22 strokes per 25yd length, and hold 1:15s or better for intervals up to 500 (did 11:59 for 1000 this year, though). That's about 80spm.

To improve your turnover without losing speed, you really have to focus on correct and efficient catch and pull: no slipping the hand/arm through the water. I probably give up some of the finish, but that isn't the most important part of the stroke.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


RandyS

Dec 11, 12 9:19

Post #10 of 144 (7820 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have no background in swimming but have gone from a bad swimmer (even for a triathlete; ~44' for my first half after 7 months of training) to making the swim a modest strength (but still not a true swimmer; 58' & 1:01 in my last 2 IMs). TI helped me get comfortable in the water and several swim lessons helped me get into the 1:10 range for IM (where I plateaued for years).

I saw a dramatic drop in times with an increased stroke rate (at ~24 strokes per 25 scy with flip turns for a 1:20/100 scy, my rate is ~75/min in a pool & certainly higher in OW). As others suggest, a high stroke rate alone won't lead to improvement but you may see improvements when combing it with a good amount of volume and making sure you have a reasonable hold on the water at any stroke rate. I just stopped seeing many returns from making perfect form the starting point. I was not going to develop perfect form without constant coaching and lots of time (something real swimmers don't seem to comprehend as they put in this time when they were young). I have noticed that swimming with a high stroke rate puts a lot of demand on muscular endurance. If I don't swim much for a couple weeks, my lats & shoulders get tired quickly when I pick up the rate. Doing several 20K weeks in the early season was a must if I hoped to maintain the high rate for IM.

I just read Sheila Taormina's book Swim Speed Secrets and highly recommend it. She obviously doesn't like TI much and emphasizes the stroke over body position. For anyone who feels reasonably competent but slow in the water, I think it is worth the time. I can't give any feedback on my results yet but I feel that her advice will help me take a few more minutes off my swim this year.


Devlin

Dec 11, 12 9:29

Post #11 of 144 (7787 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Tri-Banter] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tri-Banter wrote:
Devlin wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.


And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John


I admit to having a better than average flip turn. However, when I swim in lcm, my cadence becomes ~38-40 strokes per 50 and interval is a little slower. However, it's my stroke rate per length is rather consistent regardless of speed. To drop down to 85 strokes per min, I'd need to be doing sub :55s per 100.

Do a search for "Gerry Rodrigues" on here and read some of the articles from his blog and training site(s). He is an advocate of high stroke rates in OW (vs. pool swimming). IIRC, he posted something about the OWS Championships, they were at 85ish for stroke rates and went up to the high 90's/low 100's for the last 3k of the race or so.

John


Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |


ericmulk

Dec 11, 12 9:54

Post #12 of 144 (7739 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gjohnson wrote:
I'm currious to know whether any age groupers with a limited swimming background and limited time to train have sucessfully used a high swimming stroke rate to improve their swim. Something like 80 strokes per minute.

The total immersion folks claim that age groupers with limited time to train shouldn't use a high stroke rate because it takes too much time to effectively develop and will kill your bike and run on race day. They advocate a rate around 55 strokes a minute, or even slower.

However, I also think there's a lot to be said for needing a high stroke rate to swim fast. I find that with the lower stroke rate I'm over-rotating to propel myself through the water, which gets me out of alignment and lead to slower swimming.

Is it possible to swim fast using a high stroke rate with only 2-3 swims per week? And will the higher swim rate lead to a slower bike and run on race day? Any age grouper will no swimming background and limited time successfully pull this off?

As others have said, you have focus on both distance per stroke and stroke rate. I've been swimming year-round since age 13 and I've been counting swimmers' strokes for most of that time. Good swimmers usually take around 18 or less strokes per 25 yd length when swimming distances of 200 yds and up. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule but this is typical. Generally the best swimmers take the fewest strokes per length, i.e. 10-12 str/lngth, but then they're going like 50 sec/100 yd so their str/min at say 12 str/lngth and 2.5 sec/turn ==> 48 str/40 sec ==> 72 str/min. A more typical "average ex-competitive swimmer" might take 16 str/lngth and go 1:10/100yds, with say 3 sec/turn ==> 64 str/58 sec ==> 66 str/min. So, the "elite" 50/sec/100 swimmer has fewer str/lngth but higher str/min.

As an example of a real outlier, I saw Mel Stewart swim the 1000 free at a U. of Tenn dual meet back around 1992. He went 9:10 or 55 sec/100 scy and took only 10 str/lngth the whole way. Assuming 2.5 sec/turn ==> 40 str/45 sec ==> 53.3 str/min. Of course, Stewart was the WR holder in the 200 fly and was just swimming the 1000 in this dual meet to score points for the team, plus he had probably done a 10,000 yd workout in the morning, since this was mid-season.

In sum, aim to have smooth powerful strokes, turning over as fast as you can without losing power per stroke. It's a balance that comes to you over time in the pool.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."


monty

Dec 11, 12 10:17

Post #13 of 144 (7693 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [klehner] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 but I have been beaten out of the water in my AG in a race about twice in the past decade (and both were in the only half IMs I did). //

Well you have two more weeks, then you get to pull steve and i in your new AG. So i will be expecting a nice draft next time we meet. You may not win the swim though.. (-;


orphious

Dec 11, 12 10:18

Post #14 of 144 (7693 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Meulen] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Meulen wrote:
orphious wrote:
I find that triathletes would be better served to increase their distance per stroke and then worry about increasing their stroke rate. Increasing both will obviously make anyone faster.


I think that's kind of a given, but maybe the best question is when to start focusing on stroke rate and what to focus on bringing it too?

I would start to work on stroke rate once I was confident in my form and know that my balance in the water is good. Stroke rate and ditance per stroke go hand in hand. If you increase your stroke rate such that its too fast, you wont have as much strength to pull you through the water. I guess the answer to the question of what to bring it to is going to depend on the individual and what their distance per stroke is. The key would be to keep the distance per stroke the same or increase it while increasing stroke rate. I don't think the answer is going to be the same for everyone.


orphious

Dec 11, 12 10:25

Post #15 of 144 (7669 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Devlin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Not sure about this so take it for what its worth. I think the higher stroke rates would be better in open water due to currents, and waves and other condtions that you would not have in the pool.


Grande Pelota

Dec 11, 12 10:39

Post #16 of 144 (7635 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Keep in mind that to increase your stoke rate, you do not necessarily have to have the skill or the fitness to be able to sustain the same power throughout the faster stroke as you did when turning over slower. What you really need is the ability (awareness) to 'let something go' from each stroke. You need to get to the power phase sooner and more often. That 'letting go' combined with more frequent breathing will somewhat negate the premise that doubling your stroke rate makes swimming twice as fatiguing. The idea that a swim stroke has a power phase is itself foreign to many people, but it is in fact true. What little research that has been done in this area also suggests that the faster you swim, the more unbalanced the power generation becomes throughout each stroke.


An intro to this idea is presented here: http://athleticalgorithm.wordpress.com/...at-part-of-the-pull/



Before he was harassed off the site as so many other voices of reason have been, robertwb wrote an interesting piece about this debate.


http://www.findingfreestyle.com/?q=signsofimprovement


I personally have concluded that most beginner swimmers are far better off turning over faster than they are trying to pull more water with each stroke. I would not say there is a terribly high level of skill or fitness required before at least playing around with the idea. As with most things in the pool, the pace clock is a very good tool to guide you to what works.


Ken Lehner's example is atypical only in the sense that he became very fast indeed for an adult onset swimmer, but not atypical in the sense that I have seen similar patterns of development in many many AO swimmers as they have learned to swim faster.







-BrandonMarshTX

Dec 11, 12 10:59

Post #17 of 144 (7593 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think that there is a happy medium somewhere, and each person has to find it. Generally speaking though I think that triathletes are sold a lot of things and they really buy it. And, one minute that is TI or something similar and the next it's higher turnover, truth is the middle ground is somewhere in between.

A higher turnover without a good catch will have you slipping through the water, expending a lot of energy, and generally going no where. A long slow stroke might be great for the pool but a lot of times loses a lot of it's usefulness in an open water situation where you are swimming with 2,000 of your closest friends. But, there are things that you can take from a long powerful stroke and apply them to a shorter higher stroke rate as well.

A slightly higher stroke rate in open water lets you adjust based on chop, how close you are to other athletes if you can't get your full extension in the front of your stroke. But focusing on the stroke rate alone won't necessarily make you a better open water swimmer if you don't work on the basic mechanics of your stroke first. Generally, you'll find that if you are more of a kick driven swimmer you'll have a slower stroke rate. As you move towards a higher stroke rate, your rotation and kick will both decrease.



Brandon Marsh - Blog | Website | @BrandonMarshTX | AshworthAwards | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | CobbSaddles |


Fastyellow

Dec 11, 12 11:02

Post #18 of 144 (7575 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Gerry Rodrigues just did a 12 part video series on how to become a better triathlete swimmer. Information specifically for triathlete swimmers.

Do a search on you tube for "Tower 26 - Gerry Rodrigues - How to become a better triathlete swimmer"

They are still uploading them and I believe have 7 uploaded so far....

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MikenUltra

Dec 11, 12 11:21

Post #19 of 144 (7523 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Grande Pelota] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"you do not necessarily have to have the skill or the fitness to be able to sustain the same power throughout the faster stroke as you did when turning over slower"

That's exactly what I wanted to know actually. I'm a decent swimmer, but have stagnated with my times. Up to like a week ago, I was obsessed with keeping the same stroke count (13 strokes/25 scy), and it always yielded the same results and I wasn't getting faster, and when I'd get deep into the set and couldn't keep up my stroke count I figured I was tired (which I was) and called it a day. I did alot of research on slowtwitch and so I tried not counting, as well as increasing my stroke count and getting to my power part of my stroke earlier and eliminated some of the unnecessary body rolling and "thumb against thigh brush", and it really helped.


lightheir

Dec 11, 12 11:25

Post #20 of 144 (7507 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I would LOVE to be a low-training, no-background AG swimmer that favors a high stroke rate like 80spm.

As is, if I go 80spm without form deterioation, I'll rapidly fatigue in under 1000 yds. It's not even a mswimmers.atter of me wanting to favor a higher stroke rate - I simple can't do it without tiring myself out. Clearly I'm not a fish, but I don't think I'm too dissimilar to other late-onset . 80spm for me feels like a sprint!


BCDon

Dec 11, 12 11:33

Post #21 of 144 (7459 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for posting this, got me to thinking. As a nooby swimmer, thinking back over the last few swims, I was increasing my stroke rate to "go faster". Now that I think about it more, I "think" I'm taking it a bit too easy with my longer swims (like 500m) and dropping back to a more relaxed, slower stroke rate which is what is keeping my already slow pace even slower.

I'll have to play with a bit faster stroke rate at the pool and see how things feel and what the times are looking like.

Anyway, this is what I like about ST. Getting ideas that finally make sense to me so I can try out different stuff to see what works for me.
BC Don
There's a difference between skiing and just getting down a mountain.


stringcheese

Dec 11, 12 11:38

Post #22 of 144 (7448 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Fastyellow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Fastyellow wrote:
Gerry Rodrigues just did a 12 part video series on how to become a better triathlete swimmer. Information specifically for triathlete swimmers.

Do a search on you tube for "Tower 26 - Gerry Rodrigues - How to become a better triathlete swimmer"

They are still uploading them and I believe have 7 uploaded so far....

Here is the current thread. The links to his presentation are contained there.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...orum_view_collapsed;

There are 12 - 9 minute sections..each one is solid gold
**************************************

Making the most of zero talent but plenty of time to train.


Nick Mallett

Dec 11, 12 11:46

Post #23 of 144 (7424 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [BCDon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BCDon wrote:
Thanks for posting this, got me to thinking. As a nooby swimmer, thinking back over the last few swims, I was increasing my stroke rate to "go faster". Now that I think about it more, I "think" I'm taking it a bit too easy with my longer swims (like 500m) and dropping back to a more relaxed, slower stroke rate which is what is keeping my already slow pace even slower.

I'll have to play with a bit faster stroke rate at the pool and see how things feel and what the times are looking like.

Anyway, this is what I like about ST. Getting ideas that finally make sense to me so I can try out different stuff to see what works for me.

-----

That happens all the time with newbie and weaker swimmers and is exactly what I was talking about when I said that folks tend to get "lazy" in open water practise.Same applie for longer sets in the pool.Start pushing yourself more as it doesn't matter if you blow up a bit in training..

---


dkidwell

Dec 11, 12 12:56

Post #24 of 144 (7284 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Definitely watch that video series from Gerry Rodrigues. It sounds like you fit right into his target audience and he makes a lot of good points about high stroke rate and open water swimming.

When I was new to swimming, I had somewhat of the opposite problem. This was for school/competitive pool swimming rather than open water or triathlon. I started swimming at age 13 and I have always used a high stroke rate. I usually swim around 18-22 strokes per length for short course yards, even at 6' tall. A faster pace usually means a lower stroke count, which means an even higher stroke rate. During my first five years or so of competitive swimming, I had numerous coaches tell me that I should reduce my stroke count in various ways - increasing glide, kicking harder, etc. I think this helped teach me better form, but with the goal of reducing strokes per length, it always felt so slow. I can get to the other wall a lot faster when I take shorter faster strokes, rather than long, smooth gliding strokes. I never put much effort into changing my stroke rate and that seems to have translated well to open water. I usually race at 80+ spm in open water. I think flip turns in the pool reduce that somewhat, but I usually swim 65-70 spm (lower for scy, higher for lcm) when swimming hard in the pool when including turns at the wall.

I think if you struggle to increase your stroke rate because it is hard aerobically, or it tires out your muscles, then it is simply a matter of conditioning. Make a real effort to increase your stroke rate and I think 2-3 swims per week should be enough for you to actually make some improvements. Spending a few years as a 'swimmer' before becoming a triathlete taught me how much volume and intensity the body can really take on a regular basis when swimming. I think many triathletes don't push themselves nearly hard enough in the pool.

I know I'm getting away from the specifics of your questions a little bit, but starting swimming as a kid gives me a little bit different perspective. In my experience, I've never felt like I suffered on the bike or the run because of my effort in the swim. I usually swim as hard as I can for the distance and that seems to work out well.


sharkbait_au

Dec 11, 12 14:25

Post #25 of 144 (7189 views)
Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gjohnson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

A high stroke rate is good if it is not overly detrimental to form. I don't believe you can expect to have good form and high stroke rate without gradually training into both. There is a good page at http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html where they have observed what seems to work for swimmers, and made a chart you can use - to determine if you are following what has worked for others.

50 percent of what I say is only half the truth.

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