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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
I already regret getting into this....

Bah. C'mon in, the waters fine... :p

John



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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
KoopaTroopa wrote:
hotman637 wrote:


I want everyone to TRY both methods then make up their mind.


Most of us do this every single time we get in the water, we just refer to your method as the warmup.



Yes,I have noticed other swimmers doing my method as a"warmup"or a"drill". They turn on one side then kick for a while then turn on the other side for a while. They are doing my method in SLOW MOTION! I tell them to keep doing it that way but SPEED IT UP,lol. In other words,turn on your side,feel your balance point for a second or two then SNAP your other arm forward and PUSH your way through the water,feel your balance point on your other shoulder and repeat. I find it works best to breath every 2 out of 3 strokes. A few people have listened to me and followed my advice(shocking I know,lol)and they agree it is certainly easier and with practice they are just as fast as before.

You can't really "push" your way through the water, but rather propulsion comes from pulling and kicking. While top coaches may disagree on exactly how to pull and kick most efficiently, they all agree that swimmers are pulling and kicking their way through the water. Swimmers have pull buoys and kick boards, but we do not have any "push buoys" or "push boards". Sorry but that is just the way it is.

Also, that drill you're describing is a kicking drill.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Your quote"the reason you didn't have success with a high stroke rate is because you aren't fit enough"is exactly correct! In my experience to make the high stroke rate work to its potential you have to be really fit,have strong arms and shoulders and have a strong pull and do a lot of strokes,lol. I do not meet those qualifications! I am not young,I am an average athlete at best,my shoulder gets sore,etc. That is why I like the slow stroke method. The POWER from my slow stroke method is from PUSHING through the water so it takes all the stress off my arms and shoulders that happens when you pull hard and fast. A number of people say that is not possible to generate power by pushing, that we HAVE to have a hard pull! My answer to that is get in the water and TRY my technique and see if it works! I admit it is NOT for everyone,that many are better off with the high stroke style. But there is no way to know that for sure until you have done both versions.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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You've been describing the swimming equivalent of this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGojEyYBmwc

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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
You've been describing the swimming equivalent of this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGojEyYBmwc

Snack chair for the win!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I keep reading your description for the stroke technique you are using but I can't picture it. You've seen the "critique my stroke" videos around here...maybe you could throw one up so we can finally see what you are talking about and maybe understand a little better. No need for professional video, just something that is not too shaky and shows enough footage to give a good look. C'mon now, educate us!
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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something like that. Maybe more like 17-18 as I never got much length off my turns.
nice video, thanks for the link.

Now I *finally* see how fast swimmers are getting ~17-18 spl, not getting much off turns seems to make a big difference too, at least another spl. Even though Aurthur doesn't get much off his turns they are superfast. His clock (and I guess yours too by extension) is ticking on a different beat for sure.

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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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gregn wrote:
I keep reading your description for the stroke technique you are using but I can't picture it. You've seen the "critique my stroke" videos around here...maybe you could throw one up so we can finally see what you are talking about and maybe understand a little better. No need for professional video, just something that is not too shaky and shows enough footage to give a good look. C'mon now, educate us!

I don't have a video cam or phone. It would not do you the slightest good to see my stroke anyhow,lol. I show it to people in person and if they don't DO it themselves they will NEVER get it! It is like demonstrating throwing a knuckleball pitch. No matter how many times you watch it it will not tell you how to make the pitch work. As a matter of fact it works very similarly to a knuckleball. With a knuckleball pitch the slower you throw it(up to a point of course)and the less it spins the more it darts and"moves". Why? Because the ball is always finding the"least resistance". It is the same with the low stroke method. The LESS your body moves the quicker it finds the path of least resistance. When you turn your shoulders and put your arm straight in front of you your"path of least resistance"is straight ahead. The trick is to GET IN THE WATER and"feel"the path of least resistance(you can't see it,that is why video is useless). Just like the knuckleball pitch the LESS your body moves side to side on the"balance point"the FASTER IT MOVES FORWARD! It is a magic trick,just like the knuckleball is often called a"trick"pitch. And just like the knuckleball the low stroke method takes WAY less effort and can be just as effective. Look at R.A. Dickey.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
gregn wrote:
I keep reading your description for the stroke technique you are using but I can't picture it. You've seen the "critique my stroke" videos around here...maybe you could throw one up so we can finally see what you are talking about and maybe understand a little better. No need for professional video, just something that is not too shaky and shows enough footage to give a good look. C'mon now, educate us!


I don't have a video cam or phone. It would not do you the slightest good to see my stroke anyhow,lol. I show it to people in person and if they don't DO it themselves they will NEVER get it! It is like demonstrating throwing a knuckleball pitch. No matter how many times you watch it it will not tell you how to make the pitch work. As a matter of fact it works very similarly to a knuckleball. With a knuckleball pitch the slower you throw it(up to a point of course)and the less it spins the more it darts and"moves". Why? Because the ball is always finding the"least resistance". It is the same with the low stroke method. The LESS your body moves the quicker it finds the path of least resistance. When you turn your shoulders and put your arm straight in front of you your"path of least resistance"is straight ahead. The trick is to GET IN THE WATER and"feel"the path of least resistance(you can't see it,that is why video is useless). Just like the knuckleball pitch the LESS your body moves side to side on the"balance point"the FASTER IT MOVES FORWARD! It is a magic trick,just like the knuckleball is often called a"trick"pitch. And just like the knuckleball the low stroke method takes WAY less effort and can be just as effective. Look at R.A. Dickey.

Below is Scientific American's description of a knuckleball...lack of rotation allows the movement/drifting...your swimming method is based on your turning and snapping, lots of rotation. Are you trying to swim like a knuckleball? There is not a good correlation of any kind between a knuckle ball and swimming...air and water are not the same... You say they are the same because one darts around to find least resistance while the other moves less...that would actually be the opposite IF anything you said was coherent whatsoever, which it is not... "I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

“Air drags along the smooth parts of a baseball surface, but the seams produce little vortices that allow air to travel more quickly over them. A fastball rotates 16 or 17 times between the pitcher and batter, and the rapid rotation means that the airflow turbulence caused by the seams is pretty evenly spread over the whole ball and the entire trajectory of the throw, so it travels steadily. On the other hand, a knuckleball rotates only one half to one time on its way to the batter, so the airflow turbulence stays on one side of the ball for a while before slowly moving to the other. The ball drifts in the direction of the leading seam, which slowly moves from one side to the other.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/...ficult-it-is-to-hit/
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Well cool Hotman...but as it turns out I was a knuckleball pitcher myself for many years because I didn't have a particularly live arm and it allowed me to punch way above my weight class. So I know how to throw 'em, can explain 'em no problem, and understand enough about the "why" to not need much in that regard either. Oh yeah, and when you know 'em inside out like that, you have a more than fair shot at hitting 'em too. Your analogy is weak at best.

Back to the pool. Video of what you keep trying to describe or give it up. You're not a troll exactly but you know it's nonsense and I know you know that. If this is the extent of your game then I'm done as you've got nothing left but simple repetition of the same old same old.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Your knuckleball analogy is not really appropriate. I'd say the exact opposite is true in swimming. The faster you move through the water, the more "feel" and "grip" you will have on the water, and you'll have less slippage. Think about the relative motion of a swimmer vs. the water. If the swimmer is still, you pull your arm at a certain speed and you lose some. Now, start with an initial velocity and you're more likely to be able to match that same arm speed with the speed of the moving water (no slippage). Remember, the fastest swimmers put their hand in the water in almost exactly the same spot as where they remove it (i.e. holding onto the water).

A good way to simulate this is with paddles and zoomers/fins. Driving your legs increases your speed and it should be easier to pull with the paddles/fins than it would be without the fins (paddles and no fins).

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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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gregn wrote:
Well cool Hotman...but as it turns out I was a knuckleball pitcher myself for many years because I didn't have a particularly live arm and it allowed me to punch way above my weight class. So I know how to throw 'em, can explain 'em no problem, and understand enough about the "why" to not need much in that regard either. Oh yeah, and when you know 'em inside out like that, you have a more than fair shot at hitting 'em too. Your analogy is weak at best.

Back to the pool. Video of what you keep trying to describe or give it up. You're not a troll exactly but you know it's nonsense and I know you know that. If this is the extent of your game then I'm done as you've got nothing left but simple repetition of the same old same old.

YOU CANNOT SEE HOW TO DO TOTAL IMMERSION,LOW STROKE SWIMMING ON VIDEO! Just like if you put on video of you throwing a knuckle ball,I would STILL not know how to throw it because it is based on FEEL just like low stroke swimming. In order to understand what I say you have to DO IT! You understand knuckleball pitching so get in the water and pretend you are a baseball being thrown like a knuckleball. Just like a knuckleball you move slowly doing many less rotations(strokes)per distance but EACH rotation is longer and moves from one shoulder all the way over to the other shoulder FEELING the balance point! Everytime you feel the balance point your body moves into the path of least resistance,just like the ball in a knuckleball pitch. So using minimal effort you get maximum motion. You CANNOT see that on video,you have to feel it!
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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jkenny5150 wrote:
Your knuckleball analogy is not really appropriate. I'd say the exact opposite is true in swimming. The faster you move through the water, the more "feel" and "grip" you will have on the water, and you'll have less slippage. Think about the relative motion of a swimmer vs. the water. If the swimmer is still, you pull your arm at a certain speed and you lose some. Now, start with an initial velocity and you're more likely to be able to match that same arm speed with the speed of the moving water (no slippage). Remember, the fastest swimmers put their hand in the water in almost exactly the same spot as where they remove it (i.e. holding onto the water).

A good way to simulate this is with paddles and zoomers/fins. Driving your legs increases your speed and it should be easier to pull with the paddles/fins than it would be without the fins (paddles and no fins).

On the low stroke method paddles and fins just GET IN THE WAY,they really don't help at all,IMO.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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As others have mentioned, I think this is because you don't have "feel" for the water. You're not going to "get" it the first time. It's going to take some practice. Most beginners underestimate the amount of time you'd need to put in to really improve.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Done. Have a very nice day, sir.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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I was an age group swimmer starting at the age of 6 & swam all the way through college. I now feel dumber for just reading some of the posts on this thread. If you can't break 5 minutes for a 500 yd swim, you need to stop wasting your time on your computer & swim more. You wouldn't know how this feels unless you have done it ;)
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
I was an age group swimmer starting at the age of 6 & swam all the way through college. I now feel dumber for just reading some of the posts on this thread. If you can't break 5 minutes for a 500 yd swim, you need to stop wasting your time on your computer & swim more. You wouldn't know how this feels unless you have done it ;)

I think 5:00 for a 500 might be a tad overly strict. I swam through my first two yrs in college but 5:57 was my best ever 500. Think a person needs a bit of talent to go sub-5, would suggest say 6:00 or even 6:30 as more realistic goal for the vast majority. Of course, opinions will vary on this:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I think turningscrews was riffing off the hotman's bass line, which has not changed since the opening note, I might add.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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gregn wrote:
I think turningscrews was riffing off the hotman's bass line, which has not changed since the opening note, I might add.

Ya, guess I shouldn't have taken him seriously. I have been following hotman's commentary and agree that he has been very consistent.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.


And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John
So, okay, this is a serious thread BUMP but, I'm also trying to figure this out. I've worked for years at my swim technique and I've been happy with my gradual improvements. Background on me: I'm not fast by any stretch of the imagination. In August I swam 1:13 and change at Ironman Boulder. Last weekend I swam 1:11 and change in Arizona. Recently, I've started noticing in the pool how my body slows down between strokes (before the next catch I can see my body slow down with respect to how quickly the bottom of the pool passes by). I attribute this to an overly long glide in the water OR a too slow cadence (I'm assuming these are the same thing?). I don't think this has just recently crept into my swim, RATHER, I think that I'm now able to critique my swim in ways that I've not previously been able to. Per Devlin's criteria above, I can probably swim my 100 yard efforts at 1:35 repeatedly with 16 to 18 strokes per 25 yard length (no flip turns, just touch and kick off).

Last week, I spoke with a swim coach in Tempe about this and he agreed that this was most probably a cadence issue. Further, he recommended an under-cap metronome that I could gradually adjust to increase cadence. I'd like to know where you Fishies out there stand on this issue. Is this )a metronome) a reasonable way to increase turnover? More importantly, is turnover my problem?
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [anitan1] [ In reply to ]
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Got video?

If you are doing 16-18 strokes per 25 at 1:35 pace, then I'd say tryout turnover is definitely on the low side. However, the question is would increasing turnover make you faster? If you are decelerating on easpch stroke, then yes.

You have a couple of options. Actually more than that, so pick and choose your favorites or do all of them..

1 tempo trainer. I've never used one, but they can be effective.
2 finis agility paddles. They won't stay on properly if you try to overglide, highly recommended. I love mine, they really force you to get right into the catch.
3. Fist drill. Again, forces you to maintain tempo, any pauses in the stroke really make you slow down.

There are other things as well that I'm not thinking of right now, but that's a start.

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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [anitan1] [ In reply to ]
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anitan1 wrote:
Devlin wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what 80 spm looks like. I generally take about 14-16 strokes per 25 short course yards on about 1:25 per minute. That's 60 strokes per 100 or about 45 strokes per minute. I'm not sure I can efficiently double my rate per minute without heinously messing up my stroke.


And how many yards are you taking on a flip turn, that you would have to take strokes for in open water?

Personally, I would take the advice of Gerry Rodrigues (Who advocates a higher turnover for OWS) over anything Laughlin says. Total Immersion allows you to complete the swim, not compete the swim.

John

So, okay, this is a serious thread BUMP but, I'm also trying to figure this out. I've worked for years at my swim technique and I've been happy with my gradual improvements. Background on me: I'm not fast by any stretch of the imagination. In August I swam 1:13 and change at Ironman Boulder. Last weekend I swam 1:11 and change in Arizona. Recently, I've started noticing in the pool how my body slows down between strokes (before the next catch I can see my body slow down with respect to how quickly the bottom of the pool passes by). I attribute this to an overly long glide in the water OR a too slow cadence (I'm assuming these are the same thing?). I don't think this has just recently crept into my swim, RATHER, I think that I'm now able to critique my swim in ways that I've not previously been able to. Per Devlin's criteria above, I can probably swim my 100 yard efforts at 1:35 repeatedly with 16 to 18 strokes per 25 yard length (no flip turns, just touch and kick off).

Last week, I spoke with a swim coach in Tempe about this and he agreed that this was most probably a cadence issue. Further, he recommended an under-cap metronome that I could gradually adjust to increase cadence. I'd like to know where you Fishies out there stand on this issue. Is this )a metronome) a reasonable way to increase turnover? More importantly, is turnover my problem?

You could go the tech route and buy the Finis metronome but that is a real late-comer to the whole tempo side of swimming, and really this is just another gadget to fool with, learn to use, try to syn your stroke with the beeps, etc. Or you could just use the "old-school solution", which has been used for, oh I don't know exactly, but around the last 100 yrs or so before that gadget came along. During the entire 20th century, swimmers decided on their best turnover rate simply by swimming all-out sprints of 25 to 50 yds/m, and the 20th century guys and girls went pretty damn fast. If you do these sprints and truly try to turn over your arms as fast as you can, and do these sprints as your only workout of say 30-45 min, after about 5 or 6 sessions your body will have forgotten all about the "stroke gap" you currently have. After say 6 x 40 min sprint sessions, you should be good to go, and then gradually add in 100s, 150s, 200s, etc, while keeping your stroke rate as high as you can for the given distance.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [anitan1] [ In reply to ]
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I've recently just started to play around with the metronome recently. I've been trying it out open-water playing around with what feels like my natural stroke rate, then bumping it up 2 spm each time both with the swell, and against (assuming the biggest difference would come when fighting the current). I have a ~500m stretch of beach that I go back and forth along and was able to compare my times. I would say my steady long distance (IM) stroke rate would be around 68 spm, so I tried intervals with 70, 72 and 74 spm. The first time I did it 70 felt like the sweet spot with my times getting faster, but I actually got a little slower as I picked up my stroke rate beyond that. I think I had a tendancy to let my arm slip through the water (dropping the elbows) a little just to be able to keep up with beeps. I tried it again this week and 72 spm was the sweet spot, but I really focused on my catch. 72 also felt like a good tempo HIM effort for me as well. Like another poster said, I probably give up a little on the back end of the stroke when I increase the stroke rate. In the pool I finish some of my longer sets with 25s where I swim at 80spm. I don't time them, but it sure doesn't feel 'fast', just like the water gets a whole lot harder to swim through!

A dead spot in your stroke most likely won't be cured by increasing stroke rate alone. If you want to eliminate a pause, try the ankle strap - also helps a ton with body position. I've been doing a ton of ankle strap stuff over the last couple months after never trying it before. It takes a lot of time and effort, but I have progressed from hardly being able to make it through 25m without dragging my legs along the bottom of the pool (unless I used a pb) to swimming 5 or 6 sets of 4 x 50m and last week I finally felt like I was getting the hang of it. If you have a dead spot in your stroke you will find out very fast! Another month of using the strap a ton and I'll do a 400m TT to see if I've improved. I'm usually just under 5:30 (SCM) and my goal is to crack 5:20.

FWIW I am an adult onset swimmer in my 6th season in the sport and usually FOP. 1 hr flat for IM swim a few seasons back (wetsuit), and 27:15 for 70.3WC (probably could have gone a little quicker but got a terrible start line position 3 or 4 rows from the front and by the time I actually got some water to swim in the fast swimmers were long gone and I ended up pulling the next train instead of getting a little help!).
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [anitan1] [ In reply to ]
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So you're taking 18 strokes in 23 seconds? even with a 3 seconds pull out, you're still well under the Mendoza line of 1 stroke per second. You are well under the expected stroke count for the data I have compiled over the years.

While not necessary, I have had a couple of swimmers with very good success using the tempo trainer to increase swim cadence.

In our squad, we base things off of a 500 yard swim. In your case you would hold the 18 strokes per length but swim 50s or 75s 2 or 3 seconds faster than your 500 pace.
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Re: High Stroke Rate Swimming for Age Groupers [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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McBroom destroyed Vendt's 2k (y) time. Spilt 14.43 at 1650.

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