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does it get better than this position?
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Hope I get Dan some hits, but its not ST approved. You don't get to see the bike. Left leg is peak height. Some loss in power not much (8%-10 over road bike). I am 6 1 and 145 with a 29" inseam. long flexible back short legs. Thoughts??? Yes I can ride it well for an hour and run
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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What do you mean by "better?"
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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test it and you'll know for sure.

Superman can definitely be fast. (You might be too low in the front for it to be optimal though.)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose what I'm asking is under usat rules is there anything you would critique as far as eyeball aero goes? Ive made a longer lower bike than has been offered to accommodate this position. I was just looking for thoughts or critique
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. higher longer arms would be even better aero wise (i would think), but practical compromises had to be made as far as handling and safety (moving lots of weight forward).
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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This is a great place to start emulating. Seth had it pretty nailed.

Last time I played around when I bought my old Serotta fit bike


My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 7:08
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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I expected something else when I saw this thread ...
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, what would you think about me ordering a set of aero bar stack spacers and getting a very long bolt or other way to stack them? i get nervous making a tower under my arms
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
Ok, what would you think about me ordering a set of aero bar stack spacers and getting a very long bolt or other way to stack them? i get nervous making a tower under my arms

I don't see much problem adding *some* spacers (I don't know if I'd go wild) but maybe the easiest (and cheapest) place to start is build up some thick pads out of layers of hobby foam. (maybe also rotate the bars up slightly) Hard to tell from the pic, but you don't need tons more stack, but you're reaching the point where you're past flat and starting to round. That might be fine (from an aero standpoint) but in general I think flatter is the sweet spot (with superman at least)

It's also possible you can back off and go with the "diver" position, which is often right up there and less extreme. But again, all that is testing specific, no guarantees.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know that higher would be faster. You have pretty much minimized frontal the way you are. The high position basically leaves your crotch and thighs completely exposed and those are some of your worst aero bits.

My guess is most people's power output drops like a stone in a low Superman. Your fastest position may be higher if that power drop-off can be reduced.
Last edited by: grumpier.mike: Sep 12, 17 8:23
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
I don't know that higher would be faster.

This

but apply it to everything.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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then yes:

i don't think this type of position is an ''optimal'' triathlon position.

1) you haven't tested it to see if it's actually faster
2) you suffer power output lossage
3) you likely experience deteriorated run form as a result of this position
4) it looks silly
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
4) it looks silly

As if grown men running around in lycra don't look silly... [/pink]
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Hows it handle??
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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1) No testing as far as aero goes. I need to. Eyeball aero is pretty voodoo.

2) I think 10% loss for a very aggressive position is worth it (some record setters thought so). I cant support this though for myself

3) my run legs are fine. It does strain my lower back some on the run even to the point where its as uncomfortable as the run effort. No run performance change and i think with more work in the position my back will adapt more.

4) I dont care what it looks like. No thats a lie, I think it looks pretty sleek. Im sure you would think the bike looks even sillier
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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Its hard for me to say, Im not a particularly aggressive rider. nothing technical here in the high plains of west texas. Feels perfectly normal as far as I know, But certainly in a technical situation it will be less ideal.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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everyone has to make their own choice about it for themselves of course, but for the most part if you can ride a bike in aero, you can ride a bike in stretched out aero (if you set it up right and all those caveats) without much issue. You could make an argument that in "sudden" dangerous situations you're probably going to be less reactive than in a "normal" position, but how much, as always, is difficult to speculate.

The ideal solution (in my mind at least) is something slightly more elegant than the Felt above, where the basebar is still in a traditional position. Need some custom work done to make it work though.

I played with this (and the egg) a few years ago with some hackjob solutions, but priorities changed and I turned my attention to "legal" setups. Always fun to see somebody working on it though, however in general I think the Superman position isn't quite as slippery as most people assume it is.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 9:37
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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56.4 vs 49.5 kph. I dont know if outputs were similar and he is on road bars in the 2nd pic but with a very good body position. On a velo anyway this seems to be a very significant advantage.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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this is the "better" comparison (riding an hour in drops presents it's own unique challenges) 52.27km

You could argue that a few years to train, experience doing an hour, along with much better equipment and possibly much better conditions (never seen the data on the days... or if anyone recorded those things back then) made up a lot of that difference.

I'm not saying that the superman position isn't or can't be one of the fastest setups... I'm just saying it's often overestimated. Boardman probably wasn't much lower than the good time trialists now. Most estimates put him at low .2xx to high .19x which a couple of people on here are lower than in "normal" positions.

Again, all very subjective and requires personal testing to know for sure.


*ah found it, this was a good thread

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 11:22
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

His position is similar but not as stretched and he has done a 12 hour TT (those brits are nuts).
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Superman and diver positions may work well on a track or at 32mph. But in yaw conditions that you are likely to experience in a triathlon, they can be pretty slow.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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why is this? what evidence do you have of this? honestly curious
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:

Superman and diver positions may work well on a track or at 32mph. But in yaw conditions that you are likely to experience in a triathlon, they can be pretty slow.

I really don't care about CDA with these positions on the open road....I'd care about safety.

And there they fare pretty shitty..... can't see, can't react fast. Shitty.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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not my fault. whatever the rules are people do what they can inside of them. change the rules
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
why is this? what evidence do you have of this? honestly curious


I have this from my old field testing. But if you don't want to take the word of an expert in Medeival Arabic Poetry (me), I can refer you to an actual scientist, Andy Coggan (from a very old post):




My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Not the place, but medieval arabic poetry sounds more interesting than this. I do appreciate your graph/results. I wish I had more resources to test than speculate
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
not my fault. whatever the rules are people do what they can inside of them. change the rules

I am sure you get some fault, if you run into something/someone and decide to sue.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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in living life in general you assume risk. you have to be responsible for the risk you take, not for yourself, but how it effects others. I dont feel like this is any more dangerous position than any other position. I am not a risky rider and I wouldnt do something that "scared me"
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Appreciate all of the input. I just have fun thinking about how to push the limits
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rider17 and All,

That is a very fast looking position you have depicted ...... however ...... with additional expense,time, and perhaps some road rash ......

It might be possible to add a chest support (in addition to the seat support) and put your arms next to your head emulating the 'streamline' (for the upper body) push off as when swimming ........





Possibly in the chest supported 'streamline' position you could open your hip angle a bit for more power.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5886937#p5886937

And ...... add a 'streamline' frangible tail to the helmet that followed over your back and extended past your butt to 'streamline' the airflow behind your butt.

Yes it does get better ..... The 'streamline' position ......





Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: does it get better than this position? [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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it's surprising really, although you do occasionally see folk in tri's rock the superman, you never see the egg (or I never have) although it is generally accepted it's the "fastest" setup. If you account for the later iterations incorporating a "chest pad" to make it more sustainable you'd think you'd see it at least in passing every now and then. I'm not all up and up on the tri rules though, maybe there is something in there that prevents it.

I tried out the egg (with reversed bullhorns) a few years ago as well... it was interesting. Didn't have any PM to measure it though. :(

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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The answer, for almost everyone, is yes... It gets alot better than that position. Frontal area is only half the equation, and Boardman wasn't particularly aero by today's standards!
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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 When sir Bradley Wiggins beat Chris Boardmans hour record on the track he proved that yes today's riders are much more aero than the superman position.

Wait a minute-- that didn't happen! You guys have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Boardman's CDA was .185 --much lower than any male pro today except for the very smallest riders. Wiggins, Froome and Dennis are all about the .21 to .22 range. There is a reason no one has come even close to Boardmans hour record. Of course maybe it was a hidden motor after all, that Lotus sure has a lot of fuselage space in it so to speak!

To the OP, no the position really doesn't get any better than that. Your position would have a very low CDA. Whether you could sustain enough watts and be comfortable is somewhat debatable.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [J7] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you. This is exactly what I wanted to say.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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 You are welcome. Kudos to you for thinking outside the box!
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Re: does it get better than this position? [J7] [ In reply to ]
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J7 wrote:
You guys have no fucking clue what you're talking about. ...To the OP, no the position really doesn't get any better than that. Your position would have a very low CDA. Whether you could sustain enough watts and be comfortable is somewhat debatable.


You clearly didn't pay attention to my post above. The conditions for setting an hour record (on a track) are very different from triathlon conditions.

For the hour record, you're going 35mph with effectively 0 yaw (actually there's a very tiny yaw if the track is small, but that's a whole other discussion). A MOP triathlete going perhaps 22mph outdoors is likely to experience significant yaw. As Andy Coggan and I (and others) have experienced, the superman position does poorly with anything more than 5% yaw. IIRC, Andy was experiencing drag that was 7-8% higher. It was worse than that for me.


No fucking clue indeed. Maybe you'd like to buy my custom 17 and 22cm stems.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 13, 17 18:56
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I understand what you are getting at. I certainly have no data for anything. According to your graph there is a yaw point in which this position apparently struggles in your n=1. So for a rider holding 300w in a position like this how often do you experience yaw higher than 8ish degrees?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Wow that looks like a horrible position in regards to comfort, ability to control the bike and generate power. I question why even being so low in the front is actually more aero. If you think it works for you then ignore everyone and run with it but there is a reason no one currently races in a position like that. Just saying...
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
I understand what you are getting at. I certainly have no data for anything. According to your graph there is a yaw point in which this position apparently struggles in your n=1. So for a rider holding 300w in a position like this how often do you experience yaw higher than 8ish degrees?


Actually it's Coggan's graph and not mine. And I'd bet it's more than n=1, since he undoubtedly tested with his wife. Check out the time where yaw<5 in the chart on this page:

http://engineerstalk.mavic.com/...kona-ironman-course/

So yeah, you'll be faster for 30% of the time, but a lot slower for the other 70%. Because the higher yaw, the bigger the disadvantage.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 13, 17 19:16
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting read. This is why I love this forum. Not saying I'm wrong, but I love the insight from people smarter more experienced than me. Could you share with me what you think is a close to ideal aero position over mine or what would be your advise for my position?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
Interesting read. This is why I love this forum. Not saying I'm wrong, but I love the insight from people smarter more experienced than me. Could you share with me what you think is a close to ideal aero position over mine or what would be your advise for my position?

I would guess that Grill who posts to the watts & speed in your latest race thread is about as good as a pretty big guy can do.

I think many people could do better by focusing on narrow rather than low. Of course the stupid pressfit BBs make that difficult.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

His position is similar but not as stretched and he has done a 12 hour TT (those brits are nuts).


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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
Could you share with me what you think is a close to ideal aero position over mine or what would be your advise for my position?


I'd advise you to quit that silly swimming and running shit, and just do TTs ... ;)
Last edited by: rruff: Sep 13, 17 20:08
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Re: does it get better than this position? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5
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Re: does it get better than this position? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5

Yeah, it was this one I was thinking of:



My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [J7] [ In reply to ]
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Boardman's CdA comes out around 0.184, a figure which is higher than many contemporary riders, including my own, at 80kilos and 182cm. So much for not having a fucking clue, I just don't have 430W and 90s ethics on my side.
Last edited by: motd2k: Sep 13, 17 20:53
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Best post of the thread. Man would that make life more simple. Put my best foot forward and focus on that. Idk, from the beginning my draw to the sport was winning over multiple disciplines. I think it shows more athleticism to be accomplished across three aerobic sports. Im a tri guy
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.

I thought he was at or below 0.18. Still better than my 0.205 ish And I sure the hell can't ride my position for much more than 40k let alone 100 miles or 12 hours.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Doesnt mean much, but Grills hip angle seems to be more closed than mine.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.


For someone who's 5'11 and 174 lbs, I would call it spectacular. I've finally managed to get sub .19. But I only weigh 157 and I pulled some real tricks (that I won't divulge) to get there.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5

Surely not a CS tire on the front?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5


Surely not a CS tire on the front?


It is. But I bet he knows better now. And stop calling me Shirley.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 13, 17 21:18
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.

Wow those are crazy low and if Grill is 5' 11" and 174 that is still impressive for a larger than average guy.

I notice that the product/data lists the course name. When I looking at some of the comments on the U.K. Timetrialing forum about the Project 49 video someone mention that the dual carriageway (which I think we just call a highway) was worth up to a 0.001 or 0.002 reduction in CdA due to traveling with traffic. Do you make adjustment for that or is the stated number just internet "fake news"?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Dual carriageway traffic is worth far more than 0.002! Yes, we're using bigdata techniques to correct for both traffic and environmental effects on the day - hence the 'corrected CdA' column.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Your position features in the awards for the 70.3 worlds only you're more extreme...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Honorary_Awards_/_Cheers_and_Jeers%3A_Pro_Fits_and_Bike_Setups_at_70.3_Worlds__P6420821/?page=unread#unread
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.

Just curious David, how much analysis you've done on the data. or just taken it all at facevalue?
I mean stuff that doesnt add up; pretty obvious? like dodgy pm's?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993


This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.


Huh, didn't realise I was under such scrutiny! Interesting that of the races selected, there are only 2 with semi-clean data (hasn't been the best of seasons tbh)! Closest would be the WCA 25 and Levens ride (even then I'd forgotten my shoes at home so was using a spare set with only one insole). Also none of those are with my new skinsuit or TripSockz. ;)

motd2k wrote:
Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.





Last edited by: Grill: Sep 14, 17 5:47
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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It's generally not a problem. The beauty of it is that unless the whole event's field have dodgy PMs then the issue is confined to just mucking up that particular athlete (and if it's a one-off and they ride multiple events, then generally they're fixed pretty quickly!). Obviously there's some sanity checking on the input data regardless.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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What went wrong on V718? The longer rides are generally more accurate, since small events (which would ruin a 10) start to lose significance.
Last edited by: motd2k: Sep 14, 17 5:53
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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That one was disastrous. It was the day after the CTT 86'd the 3cm rule, so I completely changed my position. Bars ended up collapsing (happened in a few races you used, the PD Aeria is just awful) and I spent most of the time trying not to slip off the saddle (which was difficult considering my wrist angle). Also, my Di2 died 2 miles in so did the rest stuck in 58/13 which made for some interesting movement. You can see in CraigZ's gallery that it isn't like any position I've used before or since. http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/...iday-10-17/e87f6cf1e

I've done 5hrs of aero testing since the CTT's 3cm change of heart, and also there have been changes in equipment that aren't taken into account in any of the selected segments.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of thought obviously went into it, and a lot of testing most likely. (lots of D2Z logos to have not) So likely very good. The real question is how did he get USE R1's mated up to the SC? Never seen that before.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
A lot of thought obviously went into it, and a lot of testing most likely. (lots of D2Z logos to have not) So likely very good. The real question is how did he get USE R1's mated up to the SC? Never seen that before.

He mated the pods to the standard bar. Mork is always tinkering.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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ahh, makes more sense. Looks good.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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They're Tula pods, I think he did the work himself to fit them to the SC's base bar.

If his power data is correct, his CdA is considerably lower than Grill's.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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high hands low and back saddle, head slots in nicely... lots of folk find some sizeable gains with that kind of setup, so i don't doubt it.

I guess the tula pods are only really held onto the base bar by the pins and bolts, wouldn't be too big of a task to modify a bar to accept them. (or you could bond them i suppose as well)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5

Is this a test? It would be nice to see a front view, but I will give it a go and explain my reasoning. Looking at the headtube length versus wheel size I am guessing a 54 or possibly 52 frame, so the rider is 5'9" and 160 lbs. The attention to detail of the USE base bar and the shoes suggests that there are about no equipment details that haven't been considered (except the skewers. Needs some View Speeds and trim the last 2" off the extensions). The bar attach at the inside of the pedestals so the position must be pretty darn narrow.

The obvious red flags are the hump in the back, non-flat torso, poor hip rotation and the helmet doesn't sit particularly well. A different seat might help the hump/rotation issue.

If I am totally honest I would guess 0.19-0.195 but I think you are trying to jerk my chain and this guy has really narrow shoulders that trump the higher position. Final guess 0.175.

How did I do?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.

It would be interesting to see if the width of his shoulder increases as you drop the front end. I don't see a reduction in CdA when I lower my pads but higher is definitely slower for me.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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the super large ass chainring absorbs wind, thereby reducing CdA
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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If you're curious why the Superman isn't good at yaw, just take a picture of yourself from the direction of the wind at some yaw angle. Since you're leaning so far forward, at any angle other than straight on, you'll look wide to the wind. This not only increases your area, but also drag coefficient since you're forcing the air to try to go around and "stick" to your body, which it can't do, leaving a big wake. Basically always think about the wind, it always tries to be parallel to your body and when it can't change direction that fast, it'll separate leaving a wake and creating drag.

It's the same reason Kamm tail drag results are presented at some yaw angle - they're less aerodynamic than the completed tail straight on, but will be better at yaw since they're shorter.

In terms of optimizing position, it's all about the race. You would technically want the position that gives you the least yaw angle weighted drag, with the weights depending on wind angle expected on a statistical basis.

I like analyzing things - http://engineeringfitness.org
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.

Are you basing that off my actual current CdA, or the one that's been posted here in a 3cm compliant/collapsed cockpit position? Mork's is still lower than mine, although I wonder how much I'd be able to close the gap if I lost 10kg...
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.


I would say as I did to the OP above: you can often do more by focusing on width rather than height. I would bet dollars to doughnuts this guy is a lot narrower than Grill.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 14, 17 14:06
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I would give my... errr... shoulders? for his shoulders.
Front view

The positional game is interesting. Last season I would have been able to name pretty much all CTT riders at <.190 and could count those <.180 on one hand, but this year there's a whole lot of <.180 going on and if you're not ~.190 then you'd better be putting out monster power to be competitive. I think that the (relatively) inexpensive testing available by proper experts plays a large part, but even then lots of people who don't test have benefited by simply adopting what works for others (fast skinsuits, TripSockz, Hed Jet 9+, Corsa Speeds, etc.).
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
Frontal area is only half the equation,

I would postulate that frontal area is even less than half the equation given the factors at which things change when you reduce one or the other....

Smaller? Great, factor of 2 at best. More air foily? Winner, factor of 10 if lucky.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: does it get better than this position? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
motd2k wrote:
Frontal area is only half the equation,

I would postulate that frontal area is even less than half the equation given the factors at which things change when you reduce one or the other....

Smaller? Great, factor of 2 at best. More air foily? Winner, factor of 10 if lucky.

My understanding is that a human is best described as a "bluff body". Airfoils are great and as Jordan Rapp was pointing out there is like a factor of 30 difference between the Cd of a flat plate and a decent airfoil, but the human body will never be an airfoil.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Steve Irwin wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495


Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5


Is this a test? It would be nice to see a front view <snip>


my heuristic is that if i can't see your chin from a side shot you're not giving much if anything up in the head position department. No wind tunnels or power meters needed for that one.

ETA: furthermore, reaching out a bit beyond what is "comfortable" can narrow shoulders non-linearly. humanipers, can measure shoulder width - give it a try.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Last edited by: BikeTechReview: Sep 14, 17 17:48
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:
the superman position does poorly with anything more than 5% yaw.

I've tested quite a few folks at extended reach in wind tunnels. your comment, as i interpret it, is inconsistent with my experience.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: does it get better than this position? [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Steve Irwin wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495


Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5


Is this a test? It would be nice to see a front view <snip>


my heuristic is that if i can't see your chin from a side shot you're not giving much if anything up in the head position department. No wind tunnels or power meters needed for that one.

ETA: furthermore, reaching out a bit beyond what is "comfortable" can narrow shoulders non-linearly. humanipers, can measure shoulder width - give it a try.

Years ago you posted a short video showing how you could use a mirror to determine how shoulder width/frontal area changes as a function of reach. I was just trying that experiment and there is definitely a point where I see a minimum shoulder width. It is somewhere between the Slowtwitch approved position and the Superman. .... Now I just need to build some Man-a-pers.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Steve Irwin wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495


Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5


Is this a test? It would be nice to see a front view <snip>


my heuristic is that if i can't see your chin from a side shot you're not giving much if anything up in the head position department. No wind tunnels or power meters needed for that one.

ETA: furthermore, reaching out a bit beyond what is "comfortable" can narrow shoulders non-linearly. humanipers, can measure shoulder width - give it a try.


Years ago you posted a short video showing how you could use a mirror to determine how shoulder width/frontal area changes as a function of reach. I was just trying that experiment and there is definitely a point where I see a minimum shoulder width. It is somewhere between the Slowtwitch approved position and the Superman. .... Now I just need to build some Man-a-pers.


I've posted a couple videos over the years that I'm remembering. the first was one that tried to emphasize that shoulder width really isn't a function of forearm angle/hand position, but rather shrugging, or, more relevant to this thread enabling an inactive/default shrug:

http://www.biketechreview.com/images/the_shrug.wmv

the other is one about how to hold your head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG5pYN43oAw

maybe one of those were what you were thinking of?

...also, keep in mind that minimizing shoulder width can also likely be a function of elbow pad width - so make sure any experimentation investigates this interaction. again, no need for wind tunnels or power meters. mirrors, frontal area, and humanipers are good tools for this exploratory experimentation.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. It gets a lot better than this position.

I mean...without wasting everyone's time. Your hips are super closed and your handling will blow like a chubby white girl at the tanning bed.

So, please don't listen to the BS that acts like this is ok.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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.22 at zero yaw..... 6'2" 180lbs w/ Ironman storage options

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
motd2k wrote:
Frontal area is only half the equation,


I would postulate that frontal area is even less than half the equation given the factors at which things change when you reduce one or the other....

Smaller? Great, factor of 2 at best. More air foily? Winner, factor of 10 if lucky.


My understanding is that a human is best described as a "bluff body". Airfoils are great and as Jordan Rapp was pointing out there is like a factor of 30 difference between the Cd of a flat plate and a decent airfoil, but the human body will never be an airfoil.

It doesn't have to be a flat plate either.

If someone is .2 they're way more airfoil (.1) than flat plate (1.5).

The real question is not airfoil, it's *blimp*

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Any updates on your experiment? Are you going to show us what the bike looks like?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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You're biggest loss is the helmet and shoes....very poor
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Its not ready yet. Im wanting to get it finished and take it to the A&M wind tunnel this winter just for fun to have some data on it and the position....just cuz. Ill definitely do a full write up with lots of pictures when Im finished. I just need a paint theme......
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Bernoullitrial] [ In reply to ]
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I'll concede the shoes, but this helmet tested fastest for me.

Bernoullitrial wrote:
You're biggest loss is the helmet and shoes....very poor

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: does it get better than this position? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like you don't have a BTA bottle? Do you race without one?

Also is that a modified torhan VR on the BB mounted backwards?

Looks even faster than 0.22!
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Re: does it get better than this position? [zilla] [ In reply to ]
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I do race with a BTA bottle and if it were in it would be totally hidden.

That is a modified specialized fuel cell attached with gorilla tape

I’ll get to your PM in a bit, have a bike fit right now

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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tell me more about the a&m wind tunnel. How do you get in there and are they well versed in testing bikes w/ riders.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I have no idea currently. 10 years ago when I was in school I was a bike model in the tunnel to demonstrate position changes for one of john cobbs coaching seminars. They knew their stuff (come on, its A&M). I haven't contacted them, but I imagine they still rent out tunnel time.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
I just need a paint theme......

Well it is going to be a funky looking bike, and Bootsy Collis just released a new album, so maybe follow Bootsy's example and do a glitter yellow and/or purple with gold stars.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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it will be ridiculous. Dont doubt that
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
I have no idea currently. 10 years ago when I was in school I was a bike model in the tunnel to demonstrate position changes for one of john cobbs coaching seminars. They knew their stuff (come on, its A&M). I haven't contacted them, but I imagine they still rent out tunnel time.

Good point. ERO it is for me.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you. prob do that instead. I just like Aggieland.

No wouldnt work. i want info at yaw and bike alone
Last edited by: Rider17: Nov 1, 17 20:01
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