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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.


For someone who's 5'11 and 174 lbs, I would call it spectacular. I've finally managed to get sub .19. But I only weigh 157 and I pulled some real tricks (that I won't divulge) to get there.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: does it get better than this position? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5

Surely not a CS tire on the front?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I don't think this is his current position. To the best of my knowledge he is on a p5


Surely not a CS tire on the front?


It is. But I bet he knows better now. And stop calling me Shirley.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 13, 17 21:18
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.

Wow those are crazy low and if Grill is 5' 11" and 174 that is still impressive for a larger than average guy.

I notice that the product/data lists the course name. When I looking at some of the comments on the U.K. Timetrialing forum about the Project 49 video someone mention that the dual carriageway (which I think we just call a highway) was worth up to a 0.001 or 0.002 reduction in CdA due to traveling with traffic. Do you make adjustment for that or is the stated number just internet "fake news"?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Dual carriageway traffic is worth far more than 0.002! Yes, we're using bigdata techniques to correct for both traffic and environmental effects on the day - hence the 'corrected CdA' column.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Your position features in the awards for the 70.3 worlds only you're more extreme...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Honorary_Awards_/_Cheers_and_Jeers%3A_Pro_Fits_and_Bike_Setups_at_70.3_Worlds__P6420821/?page=unread#unread
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993

This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.

Just curious David, how much analysis you've done on the data. or just taken it all at facevalue?
I mean stuff that doesnt add up; pretty obvious? like dodgy pm's?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
http://da.byeq.com:8080/athlete/?id=963993


This is raw data from a unreleased product I've been working on with a partner that predicts and monitors rider's performance, currently only UK TTers, but with aspirations beyond. Again, his (aero!) figures are good but a long way off being groundbreaking.


Huh, didn't realise I was under such scrutiny! Interesting that of the races selected, there are only 2 with semi-clean data (hasn't been the best of seasons tbh)! Closest would be the WCA 25 and Levens ride (even then I'd forgotten my shoes at home so was using a spare set with only one insole). Also none of those are with my new skinsuit or TripSockz. ;)

motd2k wrote:
Grill's current CdA is in the region of 0.185-0.19, it's not spectacular.





Last edited by: Grill: Sep 14, 17 5:47
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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It's generally not a problem. The beauty of it is that unless the whole event's field have dodgy PMs then the issue is confined to just mucking up that particular athlete (and if it's a one-off and they ride multiple events, then generally they're fixed pretty quickly!). Obviously there's some sanity checking on the input data regardless.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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What went wrong on V718? The longer rides are generally more accurate, since small events (which would ruin a 10) start to lose significance.
Last edited by: motd2k: Sep 14, 17 5:53
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5
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Re: does it get better than this position? [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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That one was disastrous. It was the day after the CTT 86'd the 3cm rule, so I completely changed my position. Bars ended up collapsing (happened in a few races you used, the PD Aeria is just awful) and I spent most of the time trying not to slip off the saddle (which was difficult considering my wrist angle). Also, my Di2 died 2 miles in so did the rest stuck in 58/13 which made for some interesting movement. You can see in CraigZ's gallery that it isn't like any position I've used before or since. http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/...iday-10-17/e87f6cf1e

I've done 5hrs of aero testing since the CTT's 3cm change of heart, and also there have been changes in equipment that aren't taken into account in any of the selected segments.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of thought obviously went into it, and a lot of testing most likely. (lots of D2Z logos to have not) So likely very good. The real question is how did he get USE R1's mated up to the SC? Never seen that before.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
A lot of thought obviously went into it, and a lot of testing most likely. (lots of D2Z logos to have not) So likely very good. The real question is how did he get USE R1's mated up to the SC? Never seen that before.

He mated the pods to the standard bar. Mork is always tinkering.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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ahh, makes more sense. Looks good.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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They're Tula pods, I think he did the work himself to fit them to the SC's base bar.

If his power data is correct, his CdA is considerably lower than Grill's.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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high hands low and back saddle, head slots in nicely... lots of folk find some sizeable gains with that kind of setup, so i don't doubt it.

I guess the tula pods are only really held onto the base bar by the pins and bolts, wouldn't be too big of a task to modify a bar to accept them. (or you could bond them i suppose as well)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

Out of interest, what is your eyeball assessment of the CdA of this guy's position?

http://www.craigzadphotos.co.uk/.../h946A8DE5#h946a8de5

Is this a test? It would be nice to see a front view, but I will give it a go and explain my reasoning. Looking at the headtube length versus wheel size I am guessing a 54 or possibly 52 frame, so the rider is 5'9" and 160 lbs. The attention to detail of the USE base bar and the shoes suggests that there are about no equipment details that haven't been considered (except the skewers. Needs some View Speeds and trim the last 2" off the extensions). The bar attach at the inside of the pedestals so the position must be pretty darn narrow.

The obvious red flags are the hump in the back, non-flat torso, poor hip rotation and the helmet doesn't sit particularly well. A different seat might help the hump/rotation issue.

If I am totally honest I would guess 0.19-0.195 but I think you are trying to jerk my chain and this guy has really narrow shoulders that trump the higher position. Final guess 0.175.

How did I do?
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.

It would be interesting to see if the width of his shoulder increases as you drop the front end. I don't see a reduction in CdA when I lower my pads but higher is definitely slower for me.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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the super large ass chainring absorbs wind, thereby reducing CdA
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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If you're curious why the Superman isn't good at yaw, just take a picture of yourself from the direction of the wind at some yaw angle. Since you're leaning so far forward, at any angle other than straight on, you'll look wide to the wind. This not only increases your area, but also drag coefficient since you're forcing the air to try to go around and "stick" to your body, which it can't do, leaving a big wake. Basically always think about the wind, it always tries to be parallel to your body and when it can't change direction that fast, it'll separate leaving a wake and creating drag.

It's the same reason Kamm tail drag results are presented at some yaw angle - they're less aerodynamic than the completed tail straight on, but will be better at yaw since they're shorter.

In terms of optimizing position, it's all about the race. You would technically want the position that gives you the least yaw angle weighted drag, with the weights depending on wind angle expected on a statistical basis.

I like analyzing things - http://engineeringfitness.org
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.

Are you basing that off my actual current CdA, or the one that's been posted here in a 3cm compliant/collapsed cockpit position? Mork's is still lower than mine, although I wonder how much I'd be able to close the gap if I lost 10kg...
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
It's a large Speed Concept, you can tell from the frame being higher than the top of the draft box.

His CdA is almost certainly lower than Grill's by a larger margin than you estimated. He has said in the past that his CdA reduced as he moved higher, so the logic of other factors trumping the higher position is incorrect - the higher position is more aero in itself.


I would say as I did to the OP above: you can often do more by focusing on width rather than height. I would bet dollars to doughnuts this guy is a lot narrower than Grill.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Sep 14, 17 14:06
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