Yes, they are slowing you down, yes that amount is typical, no it won't help your endurance if you ride on these awful things, and yes you should take them back to the shop. Wiggle and Probikekit et al are selling two packs of Continental 4000s II tires for $70 right now. There is absolutely no justification for buying these items at your local bike shop, or listening to any advice they give you if this is the kind of advice they give.

Did the shop know you had an upcoming race?

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They are definitely slow tires but I guess it can't hurt to train in them...damn sure wouldn't use them in a race!! I'm curious as to why your LBS recommended those tires? For comparison, I race and train on the same tires (Conti 4000II and/or Conti TT). New tires always for an IM! Once I get 400-500 miles on a tire, it is then a trainer tire only.

It was discussed in conversation when I picked the bike up, but that was it.

Yes the Gatorskins are a slower tire than the GP4000s. What many will do is use the Gatorskins for a training tire and the 4000s for a race tire. If 2 sets of tires aren't in your budget or you don't want to switch them off your wheels, just go with the GP4000s moving forward.

Yes.

Search the forums - you could not pick a slower tire.

The only reason to use them is if you can't change a flat and the illusion of protection offers you peace of mind for a big race.

I would be changing tires every 2-3 weeks in the summer. That is just crazy. I put 1000s of miles on a tire and never have problems.

Gatorskins are the worst possible choice. I wouldn't even ride them on training rides.

As others have said, GP4000S's are a very good option, with high levels of flat protection (I use them to commute through industrial areas every day) and among the best rolling resistance.

If you'd like to learn about latex tubes and sealant, there are some good threads on here. And lastly, don't listen to your bike store.

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Let me try that again. Once I get 400-500 RACE miles on a tire then it becomes a trainer tire until it is nearly shredded and I am getting frequent flats. I.e., I won't race on a tire that has more than 500 miles on it...with the exception of non-consequential local sprints. If I'm paying money to enter and travel to a HIM/IM, I'm not going with tires that have any significant wear.

The tech is probably in his AG!

Slowing you down 1-1.5 MPH? That seems high, especially over regular stock tires. Not like he's switching from highly rated race tires to gatorskins. Definitely a significant time savings to be had, but it's surprising that it'd be that big.

If you're hovering around the 20 MPH mark, putting on gatorskins is going to add nearly 25-30 minutes to an Ironman ride? (Doing the math in my head so may be off)

lol, that would be funny if that was true. Or maybe they are having an internal 'punking' contest. One of the shop hands bet another lunch if he could get Gatorksins out the door on the bike.

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I train on Gatorskins and regular training wheels. My view on training is that I should have equipment that makes me work harder so that when I switch to my race wheels and race tires I will go a lot faster from the harder efforts on Gatorskins. They are great training tires.

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that is all kinds of messed up. just because they make you slower, they do not make you train harder. your legs are putting out the watts, the tires take some, the air takes some. your legs don't make extra watts because of the tire you use.

is it Tom A that says, "life is too short to use crappy rubber"?

my view on training is that it should simulate as closely as possible the race conditions, ie do in practice what you want to do in a race(gearing,cadence, speed) riding something that makes you go 1/4 as fast as you would in a race makes for shorter distance training rides but offers no simulation of how the race will "feel"

Same here, I have ran the Gatorskin on my training wheels for 2 years now, 1 flat only.
Great training tire. GP4000s for racing for sure is the way to go.

It's not messed up at all. The rolling resistance of the Gatorskins consumes a lot more watts than race tires. Gatorskins take around 20W a tire to roll.

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I run Gatorskins and conti 4000s. I actually do not see a whole lot of difference in puncture flat protection because the 4000s are amazingly robust especially given their racy nature. I would give a slight edge to the Gatorskins in preventing sidewall cuts though and they are more likely to stop a bigger piece of glass, metal or a thorn. Gatorskins are definitely slower although it is hard for me to tell how much since I run them on non aero training wheels. Gatorskins are not as supple as the 4000s but I tend to think people over estimate how slow they are. The do not totally suck, they are just not race tires.

Gatorskins do have some things going for them as a training tire. They last a lot longer (around twice as long, which if you are riding 5-6000 miles + per year really adds up over time). I find they handle a bit better when it is cold or wet. And, while the 4000s are great against basic punctures, there are situations where a Gatorskin is much more robust.

I do tend to reach for the Gatorskins mostly when I need the psychological comfort of not wanting to even think about getting a flat (never races, but, for example, those cold winter rides where stopping equals death ;-)

If I'm going slower, then I have to increase power to go faster. If I put faster tires on, I'll go faster on less power.

I disagree 100% with your view on training. I'm not riding my 808 and Super 9 with Turbo Cottons and Latex Tubes in training. I don't need to "simulate" racing during a training ride by using my racing gear. I train hard and race harder. If you need to "feel" how a race might be in training, you need to train harder.

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I'm normally not one to complain about tiny aero gains on the bike, as I can never podium in an overall WTC branded event in my AG, but I will say that earlier in my cycling days, I heard about these "gatorskin" tires, and after having experienced a bad slew of flats from thorns, I promptly put them on my P2C.


Gotta admit though, wow I noticed right away that my bike just felt slower. I know it wasn't some -in-my-head effect, because at the time I knew nothing about the weight of Gatorskins nor their effect on speed, but compared to my not-pricey Rubino Pros, I could tell immediately that something was different and clunkier feeling, even if was <1mph difference.

Rode those for a while, which worked well in training, and even raced a few times with 'em (Andy Potts!) until I got onto the ST.com and people were bemoaning their slowness.

Swapped 'em back to Conti GP4000s, and it's back to that fast feeling bike. I think it's real - don't use 'em for racing.

19.3W of rolling resistance per tire. http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...ental-gatorskin-2015

It has a real and great effect on training. I have to use a bit more power on my group rides and my legs thank me on race day.

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If you are using gatorskins on group rides you will have to work harder to keep up with the group == more training effort

If you are using gatorskins on solo training rides you will travel less distance for the same amount of work == same training effect

Both of you are right depending on the situation you use them in.

This might be opening up a can of worms, but does anyone else notice that it seems easier to put out high watts when you are also going faster? Of course I've got no data to back this up. Maybe it's just more fun to hammer at 45-50km/hr with the wind at your back than to struggle going 22km/hr into a headwind. If so, makes sense to train on somewhat fast gear.

Might have something to with smaller momentum changes when moving fast as you don't have to bring the bike back up to speed every pedal stroke.

It also depends on if you are training with time at power or distance traveled. I'm more concerned with time at different levels of FTP than how far I go. It depends on the workout though.

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and if you increase power on faster tires you also go faster. do you have some magical speed limiter you cannot exceed like H20 and his 30 mph?

they just make riding less enjoyable and there is no reason to do that

yes I use slower tires in training, ie 4000S's, than I do in racing

The Vittoria Rubino Pro tires (factory tires) are really shitty tires and the Gatorskins are probably a little bit better.

I immediately replaced mine before I even rode on them. I don't even bother with Gatorskins anymore, I ride Schwalbe One's or GP4000's. I've had more pinch flats with Gatorskins than I care to remember

No matter what tire you are using your effort in a training ride should be based on power, not on speed. Therefore if you head out to do a 3 hour zone 2 ride, you just won't go as far on gatorskins as on good tires - it should have absolutely no affect on how hard you are pedaling. 3 hours at 180 W (or whatever) is the same, no mater what your speed is. If you go 20 watts higher just because you are riding on slow tires and you are trying to make up the speed difference, you are doing it wrong.

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I have no speed limiter. I just prefer to use more power to go the same speed on other tires.

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Fair point there. I prefer the flat protection of the Gatorskins and due to the increased rolling resistance, I have to work harder in my group rides to stay at the front.

If I'm riding alone, I don't really care about speed. I only track power.

The Gators do make you work harder to attain the same speeds as other tires but it all depends on what you are trying to measure and the workout you want to do. Does that make sense or am I incorrect?

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I see. I read it to mean that you only used it on the trainer indoors once you get 400-500 miles. Makes total sense now and I do the same with my race tires.

The bolded above is my rationale for riding gatorskins on most of my training rides.

Although, I have a set of older, shallow racing wheels with latex and 4000s if I want to ride with some fast dudes or go for a PR day on Strava. On those days, I love the ride so much better, that soon enough I'll likely rotate those gatorskins onto my trainer bike and ride 4000s outdoors all the time.

or ride better tires and attack off the front on the group ride. more challenging to be the rabbit :)

This is precisely what I felt when I had been on them less than a minute. They "felt" slower. I kept going to see if that would change, and despite being on a relatively flat ride (north Houston), I kept feeling that I was putting way too much effort in to sustain even 20mph.

After a while I went back in and cranked the PSI up to 120 and there was a noticeable decrease in effort required on a short follow-up ride. Streets where I'm at are pretty clean (new residential developments), so flats are few and far between. I'll definitely be investing in some faster tires prior to the races. Thanks for the advice all.

Gatorskins are crap. Yes, they slow you down. But, I never had a flat until until I got Gatorskins. After three flats, I took those things off and went with Conti GP 4000s.

slow tires in training while in theory don't make you work harder, if you live somewhere rolling they make every uphill longer. At the bottom of every hill you have lower terminal velocity and if there is an uphill, you have less linear momentum thrusting you up part of that hill. So even though your legs only put out the same watts, you might just coast less and take slighlty longer to do your ride. Add that up over an entire week of riding and you have some 'extra' training load. It's not a ton, but depending on how many hours you ride with slow tires it can add up.

I think is incredibly dumb and makes no sense.

Regardless, GP4000s of the same size with a lower PSI offers less Crr and a better ride quality. I have a part time riding buddy that swears by Gatorskins yet he's flatted 3x with me to my 0, yes I remind him every time why he's riding such a POS tire! FWIW I'm on GP4k with latex tubes.

Your LBS story reminds me when I went to the closest LBS to get a latex tube. I had to hear from the owner that latex tubes are only good if doing big mountain rides and that they are useless here in flat FL (yet they have them on the shelf). I said "thank you for that advise" and promptly left to go to another LBS to buy said tube!

Looking forward to your "what's the best race day tire" thread, lol...

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Am I correct in thinking the continental 4 seasons are just as slow as the gator skins?

Pretty nice comparison below

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...ental-gatorskin-2015

+1. BryanD's comment is nonsensical.

Explain?

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Why? For most of your training, you should be working really hard and trying to increase your FTP. I don't understand why people train with aero wheels, racing tires, and aero helmets.

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I'm training on Shwalbe durano's, I have a power meter so i don't give a shit about speed in training and i'm not working harder, i just don't want to change tubes on the side of the highway.

The ideal thing is to have two sets of wheels, bombproof trainers and some racing wheels.

You are only working harder if you are a) riding for longer (time, not distance) b) pushing more power or c) both. The type of tires you use has no bearing on the foregoing. Why don't you set your brakes to rub? That makes just as much sense.

If I want to ride a 60 mile loop on Gatorskins, then I will have to ride for more time than if I had GP4000s due to crr loss.

Assuming identical power for both scenarios, the only thing that changes is time.

If I wanted to do each loop in equal time, I would have to use more power to go the same speed with the Gatorskins. If this is incorrect, then tell me what I'm not understanding.

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Your problem is that you are using distance as the output to your equation. Stop. Distance doesn't matter. Time and power and heart rate and not having shitty tires -- those all matter in training.

Just reread Jeffp's post.

I think the problem is that we are all defining the workout differently. For some speed is important, therefore they would choose a faster tire. For those with power meters, we just care about time spent at power. If it's a distance workout, then you have to rider longer to get the distance.

I think I mistakenly assumed that because the rolling resistance is so bad, I would have to work harder in my workouts. That's only true for my group rides because I have to increase power to match the speeds of other riders.

For the other rides at Zone 2-3 riding, it's just time spent at power. Therefore, maybe I need 2 sets of tires haha! Gators for the group rides and GP4000s for regular riding.

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Gatorskins make me work "longer". I have a 60mi. loop, regardless of tires. I don't have a 58mi. loop for Gatorskin rides.

In practice, I have Gatorskins on my tri bike's training wheels (race wheels are Supersonics + latex), which levels my speed to be closer to my road bike (GP4000s IIs).

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From a practical perspective, I am not going to go and add extra distance to my bike commute or my 90K loop from home. The distance is the distance so if I am high Crr tires, it's just going to be more time out there, or the same time at higher power. Basically more Kilojoules by the time I get home. I get what you are saying but in most practical scenarios, the high Crr tires will result in slightly more work. And then there is the scenario of riding with others. With high Crr tires you ride at higher power to keep up with your group...it's not like you are going to look at your powermeter and say, "Hey, I am riding with low Crr tires and I better go harder since I am working too easy....you just sit on the wheel....or you are on high Crr tires and hanging on for dear life, but the speed of the group is the speed of the group"

My practical world observation is that higher Crr tires invariably results in more work even though you are theoretically following your power target.

Race scenario is different. You're already max'd out and want to get done the course as quickly as possible.

Plus, it's nice to set KOMs in Strava.

More seriously, I like 'knowing' how fast I'm actually going and getting a gauge on what my time over a set distance is. Same reason I don't swim in boardshorts.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Conversely, I like training on Gatorskins and using non-aero gear. I trim by power, so don't really care about my time. An extra 5 minutes doesn't make a difference in my schedule.

But when I hit race day and have my fast wheels / rubber and all my aero gear, I get a nice little psychological boost...for my same power, I feel like I am absolutely flying.

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This is exactly my point. The only way to sensibly define a workout is time spent at power. There is no meaning to distance. It could be exceptionally windy and you could go 1.5 mph slower than normal. I get that for practical reasons you and Dev plan loops with distance, but that's just not how physiology works.


Why not just pull more on the group ride? Are you letting the entire crew sit in your draft the whole time while you're rolling on gators? If so, you need to find another group ride.

It is only that way because you are planning your distance according to those gatorskins. If you planned your distance, I don't know, a bit longer to account for the fact that your tires don't suck, then it's the same thing.

Your group ride example doesn't make sense either. Pull more in a group ride, and sit in on your nice tires when you're tired. Show them what you can do at the front. If you are at the front the whole ride, you're in the wrong group.

My group ride is probably the hardest and fastest group ride in the area. It's anything but easy.

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This is actually the only argument that makes (a little bit of) sense, surprised it came this late. To each his own, but when I show up to a race I'm riding my watts. It doesn't really matter how fast or slow I feel. I know my number, and I'm going to hit it, regardless of how fast or slow I feel or how fast or slow the day is. Anything else is just mental mind games that probably do more to mess with you than they do to help you.

Good. So maybe the group would respect you more if you pulled more at the front. Which you would be able to do, stronger and longer, on a nice pair of 4000S tires.

It's a bit of a stretch for you to think you know how my group ride works. When you are in my area, come ride with us and see if you can hang on. We don't do extended pulls at the front. Speeds are from 25mph and more.

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I'm significantly faster than you, and I have legitimate tires. So I'm pretty sure I can hang on.

You two, chill.

For those who have multiple sets of wheels and tyres, Gatorskins in training can be a good philosophy. I can't be bothered getting GPs on and off my only set of rims, on the other hand.

There's no right, there's no wrong, just don't use them on race day.

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You don't know anything about me. I don't know who is worse with the attitude, you, or RomulusMagnus. You could even be both accounts for all I know.

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I think we all get how physiology works. In any case, if I am going with slower riders, slow Crr tires makes me work harder at a given speed, if I am going with faster riders, high Crr tires also make me work harder for a given speed. Given that the distance of the ride is fixed, then the high Crr tires result in more kilojoules by the end of the ride. If I used fast tires and tubes, I'd just get the ride done off less Kilojoules. In theory I could tack on extra riding for the exact same physiological workload, but in practice the loop is the loop, the commute is the commute. I actually feel the odd time that I ride my 90K loop in full race gear that it feels like cheating in that I know I'll get through it with much fewer kilojoules. I just won't end up tacking on more riding.

Someone mentioned swimming with slow clothing on....but that changes your technique from all the additional drag and stalling.

He's apparently significantly faster than us mere mortals Dev. No point in arguing anymore in this thread. Pick your tires and ride.

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 The Gatorskins have twice the rolling resistance that my Conti TTs have so I'd have to put out more watts to produce the same speed = training benefit. Basic physics isn't it? What am I missing here?

Speed is irrelevant. Train with power and a watt is a watt is a watt.

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Back when I was bike racing only, there was a local rider who raced at the top end of the national competition level. He used to race our local crits and road races using some 32 spoke open pro's and Gatorskins. Almost everyone else would be riding the fastest set up possible. He'd win most races, it was at the time like a badge of honour to win ok a slower set up. The interesting thing is that when he got beaten, most of the time the following week the person that beat him wild show up on his training set up to race as well.

Point being, good road riders notice those things. They know when a guy is pulling monster turns, and they also know what set up they are riding. Way more respect is given to someone riding a slower set up than fast during group training rides.

Man, I am really going to be in trouble. My tri bike I will be riding outside has gatorskins, plus panniers on the back. Boy will I be slow. :) (er) :)

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I think saying to not ride them on training rides is going over the top. I am a competitive cyclist and ride around 300-325mi per week on fairly bad roads and some dirt/gravel. Gatorskins are the only tire that i have never, i repeat never flatted, even on absolutely horrible roads. They allow me to ride some really sketchy roads that normally i would probably grab the cross bike for and can handle the trainer really well. Furthermore, on team training rides not flatting and having the group stop is another benefit. Price is another variable, one pair of gatorskins will last longer than two pairs of GP 4000's.

Now as i type this my training wheels have GP 4000's on them right now, but for the winter i always use the gatorskins.

Today's 20mi bike / 6mi run brick that i have done 50 times was the deciding factor. I was a full 2 min slower across 20 miles than usual and had to stop after 4mi of running due to my hamstrings being on fire from trying to keep my normal pace during the bike. If it wasn't the tires it would have had to have been something with the tune up, which i doubt. Swapping for some 4000s today.

That's your problem there, training by speed is rubbish, even more so than heart rate.

Train by time and power, speed is more of an e-penis strava thing in training, it's irrelevant. Like others have posted, running bombproof gear in training and being slower is a non issue, it beats changing a tube on the side of the highway. I used to run GP4000s all the time, but switched to Durano's because i was getting flats from debris i couldn't even see, small bits or wire and glass.

So yeah, your gatorskins are slowing you down by heaps, but it's only an issue if you run them in a race, which i wouldn't recommend.

I've ordered some anyway, so will be interesting to see how they go. Will only use them for training rides. Have had a horror run with vittoria rubinos. Only use them as they came with my old P2 and my new P2. I used to use them for races, but had 3 flats in 1 year during races, luckily two were as I approached transition so a non-issue. Anyway I stuck them on my roadie instead and race with Conti GP TTs which have been great. Quick and no flats yet.

LMAO!!!

Again, speed is irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant.

Conditions change from day to day, week to week.

Watts do not. A watt is a watt is a watt. Not sure how many time the same thing needs to be said.

Maybe the truth just evades your grasp, who knows.?.?

Entertaining thread to read while drinking my morning coffee. Sun's up... time to head out on my Gatorskins and get some work in at target power. Looking forward to my 808's and tubies on race day.

Going out for a training ride in the hills this morning for the first time all year with some friends. Guess I will be by myself since I also have Gatorskins on the training wheels. Maybe the bike rack will help though? :)

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I have been riding GP4000s in training and racing for the last 7-8 years and they're awesome but for the first time I just bought a 25mm set of Gatorskins ($61 from wiggle for the pair, no tax, free shipping). The rear tire on my road bike (23mm GP4000) was getting worn so I thought why not put Gatorskins on. The extra rolling resistance is a plus, because I tend to ride with our tri club a lot and happen to be the fastest cyclist usually, which means more waiting at regroup points,or cruising, or not much competition when we do some racing or sprinting for fun on a ride etc. If they slow me down, they could essentially make me ride longer in a ride, and that would be awesome. And with winter approaching (or at least, the racing season is almost done) some extra protection is always good.

I used Gators for a few years on my training wheels, until I got a flat and realized how hard a Gator is to change. I could not remove the tire from the rim to change the tube. Had to call my wife and have her rescue me. Still couldn't get the tire off the rim by any conventional means so I ended up having to cut the tire off the rim, which was a chore in and of itself. It's a tough tire every way imaginable... protection, and getting on or off. This was with a set of Hed Jet 6.

Then I had another set of training wheels with Gators on them and it was also quite the process to remove the tires. This was with a Bontrager Aura 5.

No thanks. I just use GP 4000s for training and racing now.

Those of you that use them to slow you down crack me up. Like it f'n matters how fast you're going in training.

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It slows me down on my group ride which forces me to increase power to stay at the front. It also makes me ride longer since I go slower on regular rides. If I spend 10 more minutes at my target power, that's a good thing.

It all depends on what your target goal is.

If speed, get the GP4000s. If it's time at power, tire doesn't matter.

If it's distance and time, Gatorskins make you ride longer to get the same distance.

Not everyone has a power meter.

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Well that's funny, given that my initial impression of the tires - taken without a Watt meter - was validated by the vast majority of posters on this thread.

Do you have a power meter?

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No power meter. Haven't been in this sport long enough for the incidentals yet.

Going slower at same wattage is safer.

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I have a stupid question - how does a power meter know what tire you have? Is it because it measures strain and you need more strain on your cranks or hubs or chainrings to push a tire with higher Crr at an equivalent speed as a tire with lower Crr?

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Higher crr means more power to go the same speed on a tire with lower crr

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This is exactly what I do. I have the Gators on my training rims cause they are like iron. The areas I ride in have some pretty bad roads and bike trails. I have GP4000 on my racing rims. Never had any issues come race day with the transition but would not race on the Gators. But I am fortunate to be able to own a power meter. So I ride at my designated power regardless of what I have on my rims. I frankly just don't like changing tires on the side of the road while training and for the last 2 years on the Gators I haven't done that. Now I went and said it, flat tire coming tomorrow for certain:(

According to your first post, you were comparing them to the factory tires...Vittoria Rubino Pro...which are shit as well.

I thought it was obvious what I was saying. See post #10 in this thread please.

Please tell me you meant this to be in pink text.

You push the tire and power meter together, when they fall in love they will know everything about each other.

And you're doing fine.

People on this board will expect you to go out and throw another $1000 out.

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