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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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georged
Aug 26, 16 18:43
Post #51 of 90 (2946 views)
Plus, it's nice to set KOMs in Strava.

More seriously, I like 'knowing' how fast I'm actually going and getting a gauge on what my time over a set distance is. Same reason I don't swim in boardshorts.
'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [georged] [ In reply to ]
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Power13
Aug 26, 16 18:58
Post #52 of 90 (2938 views)
georged wrote:
Plus, it's nice to set KOMs in Strava.

More seriously, I like 'knowing' how fast I'm actually going and getting a gauge on what my time over a set distance is. Same reason I don't swim in boardshorts.

Conversely, I like training on Gatorskins and using non-aero gear. I trim by power, so don't really care about my time. An extra 5 minutes doesn't make a difference in my schedule.

But when I hit race day and have my fast wheels / rubber and all my aero gear, I get a nice little psychological boost...for my same power, I feel like I am absolutely flying.
Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay
Aug 26, 16 19:28
Post #53 of 90 (2920 views)
BryanD wrote:
I think the problem is that we are all defining the workout differently. For some speed is important, therefore they would choose a faster tire. For those with power meters, we just care about time spent at power. If it's a distance workout, then you have to rider longer to get the distance.

This is exactly my point. The only way to sensibly define a workout is time spent at power. There is no meaning to distance. It could be exceptionally windy and you could go 1.5 mph slower than normal. I get that for practical reasons you and Dev plan loops with distance, but that's just not how physiology works.

BryanD wrote:
Therefore, maybe I need 2 sets of tires haha! Gators for the group rides and GP4000s for regular riding.

Why not just pull more on the group ride? Are you letting the entire crew sit in your draft the whole time while you're rolling on gators? If so, you need to find another group ride.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay
Aug 26, 16 19:32
Post #54 of 90 (2915 views)
devashish_paul wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
Your problem is that you are using distance as the output to your equation. Stop. Distance doesn't matter. Time and power and heart rate and not having shitty tires -- those all matter in training.


From a practical perspective, I am not going to go and add extra distance to my bike commute or my 90K loop from home. The distance is the distance so if I am high Crr tires, it's just going to be more time out there, or the same time at higher power. Basically more Kilojoules by the time I get home. I get what you are saying but in most practical scenarios, the high Crr tires will result in slightly more work. And then there is the scenario of riding with others. With high Crr tires you ride at higher power to keep up with your group...it's not like you are going to look at your powermeter and say, "Hey, I am riding with low Crr tires and I better go harder since I am working too easy....you just sit on the wheel....or you are on high Crr tires and hanging on for dear life, but the speed of the group is the speed of the group"

My practical world observation is that higher Crr tires invariably results in more work even though you are theoretically following your power target.

It is only that way because you are planning your distance according to those gatorskins. If you planned your distance, I don't know, a bit longer to account for the fact that your tires don't suck, then it's the same thing.

Your group ride example doesn't make sense either. Pull more in a group ride, and sit in on your nice tires when you're tired. Show them what you can do at the front. If you are at the front the whole ride, you're in the wrong group.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD
Aug 26, 16 19:33
Post #55 of 90 (2913 views)
My group ride is probably the hardest and fastest group ride in the area. It's anything but easy.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Aug 26, 16 19:34
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay
Aug 26, 16 19:34
Post #56 of 90 (2908 views)
Power13 wrote:
I get a nice little psychological boost...for my same power, I feel like I am absolutely flying.

This is actually the only argument that makes (a little bit of) sense, surprised it came this late. To each his own, but when I show up to a race I'm riding my watts. It doesn't really matter how fast or slow I feel. I know my number, and I'm going to hit it, regardless of how fast or slow I feel or how fast or slow the day is. Anything else is just mental mind games that probably do more to mess with you than they do to help you.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay
Aug 26, 16 19:35
Post #57 of 90 (2907 views)
BryanD wrote:
My group ride is probably the hardest and fastest group ride in the area. It's anything but easy.

Good. So maybe the group would respect you more if you pulled more at the front. Which you would be able to do, stronger and longer, on a nice pair of 4000S tires.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD
Aug 26, 16 19:36
Post #58 of 90 (2905 views)
It's a bit of a stretch for you to think you know how my group ride works. When you are in my area, come ride with us and see if you can hang on. We don't do extended pulls at the front. Speeds are from 25mph and more.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Aug 26, 16 19:39
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay
Aug 26, 16 19:39
Post #59 of 90 (2900 views)
BryanD wrote:
It's a bit of a stretch for you to think you know how my group ride works. When you are in my area, come ride with us and see if you can hang on.

I'm significantly faster than you, and I have legitimate tires. So I'm pretty sure I can hang on.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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georged
Aug 26, 16 19:44
Post #60 of 90 (2898 views)
You two, chill.

For those who have multiple sets of wheels and tyres, Gatorskins in training can be a good philosophy. I can't be bothered getting GPs on and off my only set of rims, on the other hand.

There's no right, there's no wrong, just don't use them on race day.
'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD
Aug 26, 16 19:56
Post #61 of 90 (2886 views)
PubliusValerius wrote:
BryanD wrote:
It's a bit of a stretch for you to think you know how my group ride works. When you are in my area, come ride with us and see if you can hang on.


I'm significantly faster than you, and I have legitimate tires. So I'm pretty sure I can hang on.


You don't know anything about me. I don't know who is worse with the attitude, you, or RomulusMagnus. You could even be both accounts for all I know.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Aug 26, 16 20:01
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul
Aug 26, 16 20:15
Post #62 of 90 (2859 views)
PubliusValerius wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
Your problem is that you are using distance as the output to your equation. Stop. Distance doesn't matter. Time and power and heart rate and not having shitty tires -- those all matter in training.


From a practical perspective, I am not going to go and add extra distance to my bike commute or my 90K loop from home. The distance is the distance so if I am high Crr tires, it's just going to be more time out there, or the same time at higher power. Basically more Kilojoules by the time I get home. I get what you are saying but in most practical scenarios, the high Crr tires will result in slightly more work. And then there is the scenario of riding with others. With high Crr tires you ride at higher power to keep up with your group...it's not like you are going to look at your powermeter and say, "Hey, I am riding with low Crr tires and I better go harder since I am working too easy....you just sit on the wheel....or you are on high Crr tires and hanging on for dear life, but the speed of the group is the speed of the group"

My practical world observation is that higher Crr tires invariably results in more work even though you are theoretically following your power target.


It is only that way because you are planning your distance according to those gatorskins. If you planned your distance, I don't know, a bit longer to account for the fact that your tires don't suck, then it's the same thing.

Your group ride example doesn't make sense either. Pull more in a group ride, and sit in on your nice tires when you're tired. Show them what you can do at the front. If you are at the front the whole ride, you're in the wrong group.

I think we all get how physiology works. In any case, if I am going with slower riders, slow Crr tires makes me work harder at a given speed, if I am going with faster riders, high Crr tires also make me work harder for a given speed. Given that the distance of the ride is fixed, then the high Crr tires result in more kilojoules by the end of the ride. If I used fast tires and tubes, I'd just get the ride done off less Kilojoules. In theory I could tack on extra riding for the exact same physiological workload, but in practice the loop is the loop, the commute is the commute. I actually feel the odd time that I ride my 90K loop in full race gear that it feels like cheating in that I know I'll get through it with much fewer kilojoules. I just won't end up tacking on more riding.

Someone mentioned swimming with slow clothing on....but that changes your technique from all the additional drag and stalling.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD
Aug 26, 16 20:19
Post #63 of 90 (2855 views)
He's apparently significantly faster than us mere mortals Dev. No point in arguing anymore in this thread. Pick your tires and ride.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Aug 26, 16 20:21
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded
Aug 26, 16 20:55
Post #64 of 90 (2831 views)
 The Gatorskins have twice the rolling resistance that my Conti TTs have so I'd have to put out more watts to produce the same speed = training benefit. Basic physics isn't it? What am I missing here?
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad
Aug 27, 16 0:09
Post #65 of 90 (2808 views)
Speed is irrelevant. Train with power and a watt is a watt is a watt.
I ride:
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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rock
Aug 27, 16 0:14
Post #66 of 90 (2807 views)
PubliusValerius wrote:
BryanD wrote:
My group ride is probably the hardest and fastest group ride in the area. It's anything but easy.


Good. So maybe the group would respect you more if you pulled more at the front. Which you would be able to do, stronger and longer, on a nice pair of 4000S tires.


Back when I was bike racing only, there was a local rider who raced at the top end of the national competition level. He used to race our local crits and road races using some 32 spoke open pro's and Gatorskins. Almost everyone else would be riding the fastest set up possible. He'd win most races, it was at the time like a badge of honour to win ok a slower set up. The interesting thing is that when he got beaten, most of the time the following week the person that beat him wild show up on his training set up to race as well.

Point being, good road riders notice those things. They know when a guy is pulling monster turns, and they also know what set up they are riding. Way more respect is given to someone riding a slower set up than fast during group training rides.
Last edited by: rock: Aug 27, 16 0:16
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun
Aug 27, 16 4:41
Post #67 of 90 (2775 views)
Man, I am really going to be in trouble. My tri bike I will be riding outside has gatorskins, plus panniers on the back. Boy will I be slow. :) (er) :)
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [georged] [ In reply to ]
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Ron_Burgundy
Aug 27, 16 9:00
Post #68 of 90 (2727 views)
georged wrote:
Gatorskins are the worst possible choice. I wouldn't even ride them on training rides.

As others have said, GP4000S's are a very good option, with high levels of flat protection (I use them to commute through industrial areas every day) and among the best rolling resistance.

If you'd like to learn about latex tubes and sealant, there are some good threads on here. And lastly, don't listen to your bike store.

I think saying to not ride them on training rides is going over the top. I am a competitive cyclist and ride around 300-325mi per week on fairly bad roads and some dirt/gravel. Gatorskins are the only tire that i have never, i repeat never flatted, even on absolutely horrible roads. They allow me to ride some really sketchy roads that normally i would probably grab the cross bike for and can handle the trainer really well. Furthermore, on team training rides not flatting and having the group stop is another benefit. Price is another variable, one pair of gatorskins will last longer than two pairs of GP 4000's.

Now as i type this my training wheels have GP 4000's on them right now, but for the winter i always use the gatorskins.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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kiremma
Aug 27, 16 9:42
Post #69 of 90 (2719 views)
Today's 20mi bike / 6mi run brick that i have done 50 times was the deciding factor. I was a full 2 min slower across 20 miles than usual and had to stop after 4mi of running due to my hamstrings being on fire from trying to keep my normal pace during the bike. If it wasn't the tires it would have had to have been something with the tune up, which i doubt. Swapping for some 4000s today.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [kiremma] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue
Aug 27, 16 18:22
Post #70 of 90 (2654 views)
kiremma wrote:
from trying to keep my normal pace during the bike. If it wasn't the tires it would have had to have been something with the tune up, which i doubt. Swapping for some 4000s today.

That's your problem there, training by speed is rubbish, even more so than heart rate.

Train by time and power, speed is more of an e-penis strava thing in training, it's irrelevant. Like others have posted, running bombproof gear in training and being slower is a non issue, it beats changing a tube on the side of the highway. I used to run GP4000s all the time, but switched to Durano's because i was getting flats from debris i couldn't even see, small bits or wire and glass.

So yeah, your gatorskins are slowing you down by heaps, but it's only an issue if you run them in a race, which i wouldn't recommend.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded
Aug 27, 16 19:55
Post #71 of 90 (2630 views)
I've ordered some anyway, so will be interesting to see how they go. Will only use them for training rides. Have had a horror run with vittoria rubinos. Only use them as they came with my old P2 and my new P2. I used to use them for races, but had 3 flats in 1 year during races, luckily two were as I approached transition so a non-issue. Anyway I stuck them on my roadie instead and race with Conti GP TTs which have been great. Quick and no flats yet.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [kiremma] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad
Aug 27, 16 22:01
Post #72 of 90 (2612 views)
kiremma wrote:
Today's 20mi bike / 6mi run brick that i have done 50 times was the deciding factor. I was a full 2 min slower across 20 miles than usual and had to stop after 4mi of running due to my hamstrings being on fire from trying to keep my normal pace during the bike. If it wasn't the tires it would have had to have been something with the tune up, which i doubt. Swapping for some 4000s today.
LMAO!!!

Again, speed is irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant.

Conditions change from day to day, week to week.

Watts do not. A watt is a watt is a watt. Not sure how many time the same thing needs to be said.

Maybe the truth just evades your grasp, who knows.?.?
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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Wild Horse
Aug 28, 16 5:30
Post #73 of 90 (2566 views)
Entertaining thread to read while drinking my morning coffee. Sun's up... time to head out on my Gatorskins and get some work in at target power. Looking forward to my 808's and tubies on race day.
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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [Wild Horse] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun
Aug 28, 16 6:19
Post #74 of 90 (2551 views)
Wild Horse wrote:
Entertaining thread to read while drinking my morning coffee. Sun's up... time to head out on my Gatorskins and get some work in at target power. Looking forward to my 808's and tubies on race day.

Going out for a training ride in the hills this morning for the first time all year with some friends. Guess I will be by myself since I also have Gatorskins on the training wheels. Maybe the bike rack will help though? :)
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Are new gatorskins slowing me down? [ In reply to ]
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Benv
Aug 28, 16 6:52
Post #75 of 90 (2646 views)
I have been riding GP4000s in training and racing for the last 7-8 years and they're awesome but for the first time I just bought a 25mm set of Gatorskins ($61 from wiggle for the pair, no tax, free shipping). The rear tire on my road bike (23mm GP4000) was getting worn so I thought why not put Gatorskins on. The extra rolling resistance is a plus, because I tend to ride with our tri club a lot and happen to be the fastest cyclist usually, which means more waiting at regroup points,or cruising, or not much competition when we do some racing or sprinting for fun on a ride etc. If they slow me down, they could essentially make me ride longer in a ride, and that would be awesome. And with winter approaching (or at least, the racing season is almost done) some extra protection is always good.
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