I have no advice to offer beyond the standard parenting cautions... but want to commend you for your willingness to step up to the plate and take on a kid in need.

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

I went to a two hour information session a few weeks back. They could not stress enough that:

1. Newborns simply do not come along very often. (yes, aware that is not what you are looking for).
2. The rest of the kids will have issues. Every single one of them. You need to be fully aware that you will be signing up for meltdowns and probably lots of defiance. That being said, all the kids do just want to be loved and be "normal". Even if they themselves aren't capable of it.

Good luck.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Crap, I thought you were looking for someone to adopt you. I was going to put my name in that hat.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Dad, I want a new bike!

We already have a 16yo (he's my step son, very good kid, but gets defiant every so often....he's 16 after all).
And yes, nearly all of them have lived hard lives up to now. We went to the first day of training yesterday. 8 weeks left.
Some of the stories are heart wrenching...

We've done it (Russian adoption and a never completed domestic adoption).

1. Gut check time. You will be put through the ringer emotionally. HTFU.

2. Paper work. More paper work. Lost paper work (do it again). Expired home study (do it again). Some more paper work (you get the idea).

3. Be prepared to be treated with suspicion by 'the authorities'. Certain individuals (sometimes) have agendas as well.

4. Money will be extracted from your bank account at alarming rates.

5. Be supportive of your wife but watch out (see #1).

6. More paper work.

7. One thing that was totally unexpected was that we had people contact us during the process with possible matches who turned out to be scammers. Never give anyone money without them being vetted by your agency or attorney. We have no idea hoe this people got our information. We were contacted and offered placement. The red flags were 'let's do this without attorneys' and 'we need $$ assistance in order to (whatever excuse) before you can meet the child'.

8. Good luck and hang in there.

9. Congratulations!

PS: off to work right now but if you have questions or want me to elaborate, etc. I can respond more this evening.

PM or public is ok..

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

We went through either a 32-40 hour educational process for Foster Care licensing and the system is F'd up. The policy in our state is reunification no matter what meaning if mom gets out of jail for the third time in two years and wants to regain custody, chances are the children go back. We were told that unless parents terminated their rights, it would be a minimum of three years before we could start the adoption process whereby the kids could be taken on no notice if a parent/ blood relative wanted them. After learning this along with all the scary, sad, emotional issues these children likely have during our training, we decided not to pursue it until our kids are older.

I would suggest going through whatever certification process there is in your state which will include a bunch of education. You will likely need to shell out a couple hundred for background checks and you may need to make a series of home improvements.

Good luck.

Perhaps. But you have to do your chores, finish your homework, and be respectful to mom. Then I'll think about it.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

My buddy did this. Be prepared for a long period of fostering and legal bullshit while the parents rights are terminated. Then be prepared for the extended family to to extort money in order to allow the process to proceed. In addition child services though facially incompetent will put you through the ringer because it's easier to harass you than do their job with families that abuse their kids.

I find it amazing the hoops people have to go through to adopt a child. The paperwork, the training, the background checks, the means tests, etc. Why don't they do this with people before they have children. There would probably be a lot less children in need of adoption if they did this.

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Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it. John D. Rockefeller Sr.

I have lots of respect for those people who are willing to go through the process of adoption. It is difficult and trying. Good luck.

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Suffer Well.

My wife and I have started the training process to be adoptive parents. We aren't looking at adopting necessarily a baby, but one of the many kids who often times have big family issues etc.

What age? In US or outside?

I've never gone thru the process of adopting from an agency. We did adopt an older child from a a troubled back ground but the adoption came from with in the family not thru an agency.

Couple comments.

1) Adopting an older child is far more complex of an issue from a raising the child standpoint then adopting a baby. There is a WHOLE lot of development that takes place from ages 1-4 that biological parents take for granted because they take place relatively naturally, bonding etc. These have a MASSIVE effect on ability to form relationships later in life.

2) IF you're adopting an older child from with in the US there is typically a decent amount of assitance available to pay for various services. Therapy, training etc etc.

3) I would STRONGLY recommend therapy and counseling right off the bat for older adoptions. Not only for the kid but for the adoptive parents as well. A professional, well a good one, can often spot problems, knows what to look for, etc that can more easily be dealt with at a younger age then when they become a bigger problem, 10 years later and they are now 12-14 years old...think your 16 year old problems on steroids :-)

4) If adopting from an agency I would pay close attention for other issues. Birth issues from drugs, abuse etc. Not saying these are necessarily a no go but you should know up front if that is something you are ready to deal with or not and what future complications could be involved.

~Matt

My wife and I have been on the wait list for about a year. No comments on actually parenting adopted children, other than the fct that every single one of them has been through a trauma, or many. So you have to bear that in mind as you develop parenting strategies, there are things that you can do with biological kids that just won't work with a lot of adopted kids, time-outs for instance.

From our experience, the one thing that you aren't prepared for is how invasive the home-study process is prior to approval (may be different in your state, but here it was quite in-depth), and how emotional the waiting game is. We've been shortlisted a couple of times, and each time a different family was selected. Even though we've tried to keep a barrier up and not get too invested in the kids (we just get a written profile of the child), you can't help but develop an attachment and imagine what they would be like in your home. The first time we were shortlisted, the adoption worker sent us photos of the kids as well. I would recommend that you specifically ask to NOT receive photos. We attached to them almost instantly, and it was terrible when we weren't selected.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I've been through the foster-to-adoption process.

I suspect the process is highly variable depending on state law. We are in California, and even here, how the law is applied varies wildly from one county to the next. We worked with Orange County, and I found the vast majority of social workers we worked with to be extremely diligent and helpful. I have nothing but positive praise for them, but I've also heard different stories of different experiences elsewhere. Even a few of the social workers told us of horror stories that appalled them.

My experience may also be different because we were related to the child. (My cousin was the birth mother.) Being family exempted us from the foster educational requirements, and the certification process was streamlined. It also exempted us from any of the adoption fees that are otherwise charged -- we even were appointed a lawyer to draft the adoption paperwork. That said, the rest of the process wasn't too dissimilar -- a couple partners of mine went through it too without the family connection, and their experience dealing with visits, potential reunification, etc., was similar.

Duffy is right in that it is an emotional roller coaster. We didn't take her in as a foster child with the original intent to adopt. We had received a desperate call from my cousin (who I hadn't seen in 11 years) that her child had been taken and that she would prefer that we foster instead of a stranger. We were initially told around six months, but it quickly became apparent that my cousin's problems were severe, that reunification was unlikely, and that adoption was the best option for everyone. My cousin and the birth father, who was in prison at the time, didn't initially agree, so that prolonged the process.

In California, children placed in foster care who are under three years old are treated differently than older kids. While reunification with the birth parents is still the goal, the birth parents aren't given the same amount of chances as provided to parents of older children. It's essentially 6 months, with two possible six month extensions, at which point services to the parents are cut off and proceedings initiated to terminate parental rights and adopt out the child. I believe the idea is that it's easier to adopt when the child is young, so waiting too long with a young child might eliminate the option. Regardless, parents are almost always given the extensions, and if they fight (and appeals are on their own dime), they can drag it out.

It's the uncertainty that's so emotional. You've become attached to the child. You know the parents are unfit. But every so often, they'll do something that makes you think they just might be able to fool the social workers. We were fortunate in that we were eventually able to get my cousin and the birth dad to not contest the adoption.

One of my co-workers that went through the process had the first child that was placed in his home removed after three months because a distant relative was found. They almost gave up at that point, but decided to foster one more child with the intention of adopting. But the first experience made them hyper-sensitive to every little turn that took place with the second child. The adoption was finalized in about two years, but it was two years full of stress.

Another point is that even with young children and infants, you may still have behavioral and developmental issues. If an infant is removed from his or her parents, there's a good chance that the parents are addicts, which also means that there's a good chance the mother was using when pregnant. If it's not drugs, or even if it is, there's also a good chance that one or both birth parents have some form of serious mental illness. With our daughter, both birth parents were users and both have serious mental illnesses. We were never able to get a clear answer as to whether my cousin used during her pregnancy -- she denies it, but she's also a liar. Our daughter is fine for now, but the potential inheritability of some mental illnesses is concerning. We consulted with a psychiatrist over it, know generally what to look for, and have tried to teach coping and other skills in the event something develops when she gets older.

From what I understand, some children are already in the 'free to adopt category' (e.g. the parents have renounced their rights, or the state has decided they were given enough chances). So it makes things a bit less roller coaster like (hopefully). Virtually all the younger kids have serious mental issues, requiring one parent to be full time, so it's not possible for us. However, they nearly all have behavioral/emotional issues, and the extent varies widely. A good friend of mine (and colleague) is a clinical psych for kids, so we have some support close.

We, like Duffy, adopted from Russia about 6 years ago. Everything Duffy wrote pretty much spot on so I won't waste bandwidth repeating it. Good luck to you. Be flexible and patient because it will be frustrating at times.

From what I understand, some children are already in the 'free to adopt category'

I have no idea what this means legally and I also suspect that it changes from state to state.

In my case we went thru several years of attempting to severe parental rights of both the father and mother. The mother was still somewhat in the picture but the father was completely out of the picture. We did all the filings, publications etc etc and the fathers parental rights were severed, legally, thru the process. However upon the death of the biological mother the father suddenly showed up at the funeral and decided he wanted parental rights. He started the process up again by simply saying "I never got anything and didn't know anything about the process". This was actually correct...because no one knew where he was and the BS we went thru was largely put aside.

A couple years later we were finally finished and largely only because he gave up.

My point here would be I'd be very careful what the "Free to adopt category" means. It could be that the proper notices where sent out and publicized or it could be that the parents voluntarily signed their rights away and in my experience those are two VERY different scenarios. I think legally the former leaves the door open to a bio parent getting a foot back in the door.

~Matt

A good friend of mine (and colleague) is a clinical psych for kids, so we have some support close.

Again, can't reiterate how important this is.

We made the mistake of not doing this largely because it was an "Inside the family" adoption and there was some sense of what the prior conditions where. However we clearly underestimated the effect and depth of those conditions. It wasn't until she started getting older that we realized how much effect those early years had and the depth of the issues present...not to mention that how we had been parenting for the last 4-5 years was probably not the best way to deal with a child with the issues she had.

What comes "Naturally" as a parent may not be the best way to parent any kid. While you may be able to get away with those less then optimal parenting techniques with a bio kid, they will definitely come back and bite you in the arse with a kid with various emotional issues.

Best of luck.

~Matt

I found this interesting... others may not.

One person in our group asked a question about having a natural child and adopting. The lady leading our session mentioned that for some reason adoptive parents who already have a kid are more likely to (for lack of a better term) ask for a refund on the adopted kid when the going gets tough.

I can only guess that it's "I already have a kid, I don't need this hassle".

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I have two friends going through the same process and my wife and I had this very discussion. The money, red tape and BS you go through to provide a good home is crazy. The easiest process seems to be adopting a family member. One of our friends had this opportunity arise. A second cousin got pregnant as a teen and is a loser. The mother took custody but is in no position to raise the child and wants to put her up for adoption before too much attachment. Enter our friend. This seems to be the most viable. They have been in process with an agency for a long time and will continue that as well.

The other is going through the process and it is ridiculous. They have already spent 60K. Way to start a new family, in debt.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Actually, the term is 'legally free to adopt'. But we are very careful indeed.

ne person in our group asked a question about having a natural child and adopting. The lady leading our session mentioned that for some reason adoptive parents who already have a kid are more likely to (for lack of a better term) ask for a refund on the adopted kid when the going gets tough.

Were doing it the other way around....no idea WTF I was thinking :-)

The adoptive experience was...well...let's see...hmmm...well, let's just leave it at tough. I kind of wanted to find out what bio parents went thru and if it turns out to be similar I will eternally wonder how our species has survived this long.

~Matt

Actually, the term is 'legally free to adopt'. But we are very careful indeed.

Again, didn't have to go thru the process thru an agency but, at least in IL, severing parental rights is near impossible. You can essentially beat your kid, abandon them by the side of the road and end up in jail for the assault and they won't severe parental rights.

The Bio mother essential abandoned our daughter, which was my wifes great niece, for nearly four months with us. The response from the state was "Well she made arrangements for her care so...nothing to see here...move along"

We were in court and fighting for parental rights for 3-4 years and had no success. We had "Legally" severed the fathers rights because he was not in the picture...or so we thought. Wasn't until the Bio mom died that we finally got parental rights...well almost...then the bio Dad shows up crying foul.

Just a horror story to make sure that every "i" is dotted and every "T" is crossed and that even that sometimes is not enough.

~Matt

Legally free to adopt means that either parents have relinquished their rights or that the court has decided so. Looking at the various sites, it happens quite a bit (it also seems to be kids who have more emotional baggage).

I suspect it means that, for children over a certain age, parental rights may have already been terminated or, if not, termination is not going to be challenged. For others, potentially regardless of age, it may mean that social services has made some kind of preliminary determination on the likelihood of reunification, based upon circumstances and experience.

Legally free to adopt means that either parents have relinquished their rights or that the court has decided so.

I'm sure you have representation on this and all is good but "Relinquishing rights" is far more water tight then the court deciding the rights should be relinquished.

In our case the Bio dad was no where to be found. We had to jump through many hoops including publishing things in newspapers for some odd period of time in the last known locations and many other things. The court finally decided that the fathers rights were severed. They nearly did an about face on the entire thing the second the father showed up until we convinced the father not to move forward.

~Matt

I suspect it means that, for children over a certain age, parental rights may have already been terminated or, if not, termination is not going to be challenged. For others, potentially regardless of age, it may mean that social services has made some kind of preliminary determination on the likelihood of reunification, based upon circumstances and experience.

And what I'm trying to say is that there are probably many different ways to wind up under the category of "Free to adopt" and I suspect that some may be more troublesome then others.

As I said having both parents sign a piece of paper saying "We relinquish parental rights to the state" or whatever is far different then "We tried to find the parent, could not for some period of time, filed papers, no one responded, so the court severed parental rights". Speaking from experience the later is not so water tight :-)

I suspect that both of the above scenarios could end up under the category of "Free to adopt", maybe going thru an agency is more insulative then a direct adoption under those conditions, no idea.

~Matt

The former isn't so water tight either.

Our old neighbor was fostering a boy named Max for about a year. The birth mom (from prison) gave up her rights so the adoption process was started.

8 months later birth mom is out on parole, cleaned up and wants Max back. Of course the wizards of Smart that run these things decides it's 'in the best interest' of Max to be 'reunited' with his 'real mom' (some lady he never knew).

I was with my neighbor when took max away. I could have killed.

6 months later Max is beaten by birth mom and her boyfriend.

Max goes back into foster system. CPS refuses to allow my neighbor to either adopt or foster Max.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That's exactly the kind of stuff I want to hear about actually...It seems that in FL at least, it's pretty tight when rights have been foregone.

This is predictable bureaucracy run amok.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I actually thought long and hard before posting that (probably a first for me!). I don't want to let worse case scenarios scare you out doing this and the whole process is emotional enough without you having to worry about these things.

Our Russian adoption went really well. There were bumps in the long road but in the end I couldn't have dreamed of a better outcome. We halted our domestic adventure because it basically bled us dry financially and emotionally. If we hadn't already successfully adopted our son we would have soldiered on with the domestic adoption.

To give you some perspective, we know personally several parents who have done adoptions (age ranging from new to 9) and know of dozens. All happy stories.

I only know (personally) of the one described above and another that got caught up in the political mess of US/Russian relations (thanks, Obama!).

Don't let the nightmare stories get to you.

Man up and press on.

Again, best wishes to you and your family. It's a journey.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My husband and I fostered and then adopted an older child out of foster care in California, and I'm also a clinical psychologist who has worked with a number of foster children in the past, so know both the emotional issues and "the system" well. I don't want to talk too much about my son in a public place, as I don't think it's fair to him, but his is definitely the standard foster care story. Drug addicted parents, drug addicted baby, in and out of the system, multiple foster homes until he landed in ours at age 7. As has been said, these kids don't come without baggage -- the bio parents are a wreck, the foster care system is a wreck, and the courts/laws are the biggest wreck of them all. We found there were foster children whose needs were so extreme we couldn't meet them, especially with both of us working, and it was incredibly heart-wrenching the one time things didn't work out. We didn't really go into fostering with the intent to adopt, but after a couple of years we knew we couldn't let our son go and adopted him. I won't lie -- it's crazy hard parenting a child with so much damage. You really have to not get caught up in comparisons to kids who have lived stable lives and realize success in all likelihood will be defined differently and will happen on a different timeline. Your limits and sanity will be tested, even more so than they are with your biological children. We all made it through, our son is 28 years old now and doing well. He works full time, has a nice girlfriend, has never been in trouble, stays away from drugs and alcohol, and is mature enough to appreciate the difference we made in his life. But it was a long, hard journey getting here.

I don't know how other states work, but California will not sever parental rights until there is a serious potential adoptive parent. It was explained to me, but I don't remember the explanation -- something about not creating "legal orphans." So, in California, parental rights are retained by the biological parents even if the child has been in foster care for years and years and the parents have done nothing to prove they are capable of caring for that child. That does not mean they will send the child home with the parents; they just won't terminate their parental rights. The courts have hearings every 6 months to update the child's status; biological parents are allowed to attend if they like, but foster parents are not. Like I said, messed up system. When we decided to adopt our son at age 11, his biological mother did fight it, from her home in jail. That dragged things on for a little bit, but obviously it worked out for us (and him). Feel free to PM for additional info. Jordan's wife Jill can vouch for me -- she knows me and has met my son.

Thank you.

For what you do.

You do what most never will (including myself).

Thank you.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

The former isn't so water tight either.

Agreed, but far more water tight then the later. As Francois points out below it's different in different states and I suspect different by agency. IL seems to be ridiculously protective of parental rights. Sounds like CA is as well. I suspect that maybe states like Texas, probably no so much.

~Matt

I don't want to let worse case scenarios scare you out doing this and the whole process is emotional enough without you having to worry about these things.

Why not? Isn't it better to have the knowledge and decide not to go forward then not have the knowledge and decide when you're well into the process that you really don't want to do it anymore? I guess I'm speaking more about the very real discussion surrounding the potential difficulties with adopting older kids. It's really nothing like raising your own bio kids and can be much more difficult for a plethora of reasons.

I'm not saying it will definitely be that way, but odds are relatively high that it will be that way, certainly far higher then with a bio kid.

It can be an absolute blessing or a pure prolonged gut wrenching chaotic sort of hell. IF you can't accept that with the knowledge that you may get nothing in return other then the knowing that you're doing the good and right thing, maybe another option is a better choice.

I'd probably do it again in a heartbeat if it were a family member or a kid I knew in need, but if my wife suggested we should adopt an older kid just for the sake of raising another child I'd probably come down with a "Nay" vote....then again I'm damn near 150 years old so I'm probably not a prime candidate :-)

~Matt

I don't know how other states work, but California will not sever parental rights until there is a serious potential adoptive parent. It was explained to me, but I don't remember the explanation -- something about not creating "legal orphans." So, in California, parental rights are retained by the biological parents even if the child has been in foster care for years and years and the parents have done nothing to prove they are capable of caring for that child.

I believe that may only be true if the child was over three when placed in foster care.

I believe that it is statutorily a different matter and different track if the child is under three years old. That they will terminate parental rights regardless of whether there are adoptive parents in waiting. But as I posted above, I believe that's in recognition that it's a lot easier to adopt out a young child than an older one, and that if they don't act in a timely manner, they may lose out on opportunities to adopt the child out.

Because I knew Francios would hear it from all corners and I didn't want to pile on.

When mrs Duffy and I decided to adopt from Russia all we ever heard from people (mostly from people who didn't know jack shit about it) was nightmare stories. Malnutrition, fetal alcohol syndrome, reactive attachment disorder, speech problems, cleft pallet, future murderer, Russian mafia was going to steal him, we were going to get scammed, kidnapped, murdered!!!!

The only positive feedback we got was from the agency and a couple of families.

The reality is we couldn't have adopted a more normal kid. He's as normal as normal gets. He's freakishly normal (well he's colorblind).

We're just waiting for his handlers in the Kremlin to turn on the chip....

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That may be true. Although my experience is with someone who entered the system before age 3, it was long ago and I know that laws were changed in an attempt to make adoption of young children in foster care a more attractive and less onerous option. I also believe that foster parents may now have the option of speaking during the 6 month review hearings.

Guy I used to work with (and wife) adopted a girl from a Russia. They brought her back to the US and she was not a very happy child and had problems adjusting. At some point they learned it was because she missed her two sisters. Co-worker's family did not know she had sisters, I guess it wasn't disclosed for some reason. Anyway, guy and wife go back to Russia and somehow adopt the sisters too! Good story and I no longer work with him but see pictures of the family, all smiles and I think they are now in High school or possible even in college.

Crazy story.

I only have peripheral experience with it, through friends and colleagues. One rule of thumb that I heard is that it took roughly one year with you, for every year before you, in order to reach a level of "normalcy". These examples were usually/always foriegn adoptions of children under five years old.

Best of luck. you will have the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. It will be very stressful, tremendously rewarding and enormously beneficial to the children that you foster or adopt.

my son has several biological siblings he's never met. His birth mother gave up parental rights at birth and he immediately became a ward of the state.

We don't have much more info than that.

I was also adopted, have an older brother and sister (also adopted (all from different bio moms)).

As an adult I found my birth parents. On my birth mom's side I have a brother and 3 sisters (half). On birth fathers side I have 2 half brothers. We are all Facebook friends but I never interact with them in person.

A general note to everyone involved in adoption:

When you go searching you might never be prepared for what you find.

When a mother gives up her child the circumstances that predicated it are never good.

I'll just leave it at that.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

A bit of a crazy adoption related story:

An old co-worker of mine was adopted. I knew she had a rough childhood, but, didn't really know the extent of it. She was one of 9 (9!!!) kids adopted into one family. This family consisted of the Two parents, who had 3 biological kids, and 9 adopted kids. When I met these people, the kids were all grown (teenaged to late 20's), and all wonderful, kind, intelligent, and genuinely warm people to be around. I don't believe in angels, but, I think those parents are the closest living thing you could find. How you can build a family like that, so full of love and success, from such broken beginnings, is beyond me.

Anyways, 10 years later, my old co-worker, now a mom of 2 herself, lifted the publication ban on her backstory and wrote a memoire. Herself and her 2 bio siblings were all being molested and abused by her bio dad. Bio mom was being beaten by bio dad. Eventually, bio mom snapped, drove the kids to a park, doused them all, herself included, in gasoline and lit a match in the car. My friend was the oldest (I think 6-7 years old), and was able to get out of the car. She was the only survivor, and she sat there, a child, in the dark, watching her siblings and mom burn to death. Her dad is in prison to this day, where he will be until he dies.

It's a really hard thing to make sense of. How she turned out to be so, for lack of better words, normal, is just incredible. Like I said before, she is a great mother of two with this incredibly large, loving family. She now volunteers extensively with various groups for abused women.

I'm not posting this as some adoption horror story to scare Francois, but more-so as an example of what good can occasionally come from the absolute worst scenarios.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

So the people who adopted her molested and tried to burn her?

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My apologies, poor writing on my part.

Bio dad was the abuser, bio mom killed herself and her other original siblings.

She was then adopted by two people who are god's gift to humanity, as far as I'm concerned. They had three biological kids, adopted my friend, plus 8 others, and somehow raised them all in to wonderful adults.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Hate to be an "activist" here but to be more clear in the future use the terms "birth parents" or "bio parents" (birth mom, birth dad, etc.) for the people who donated egg, sperm and womb.

"Mom", "dad", "parents", etc. are terms for the people who adopted and raised the kids. Sometimes "adoptive parents" is used but it's kind of grating to my ears.

Again, I'm no activist and I take no offense to those who use the "wrong" terminology. Just giving you a heads up.

Believe me, there are some nutty adoption activist out there just waiting to be offended.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Got it, thanks for the heads up.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

You'll be burned at the stake if you say "real parents" when referring to birth parents.

:)

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I don't think it is particularly unusual for children to be split from their siblings during the Russian adoption process. Our son has two older, biological siblings that, at least at the time of his birth, were still with the bio mom. She relinquished all rights to our son at birth and as far as I know hasn't seen him since the day he was born.

My wife is adopted and there was some drama with her bio mom. Part of the reason we went foreign, and Russian is that we figured it unlikely some crackhead Siberian would ever get it together and gather the resources to mess with us in the middle of America even if she wanted to.

I write this reluctantly. I had skipped over the post topic for 2 days because I didn't want to see what might be in it. I don't share this information with, well, anyone. Maybe a handful of people throughout my life know. The blow by blow of the backstory is irrelevant. I am not going to pick at that scab. But Alan stated something that resonates to this day within me so I want to explain something from the other side of adoption. I was an orphan. I lived in an orphanage. Yeah, they don't call them that today, but that is what they are. A place where they place kids whose parents don't want them anymore or can't take care of them any longer. Mine was a combination of both.

I survived. Somehow, I survived my childhood. I am a credentialed professional. Fairly wealthy. Live in a home worth 7 figures with a picturesque view of a lake. 40+ year stable marriage. My children have advanced education degrees and are doing well in life. But what you see is not the full story. I was an orphan and 60 years later, it still haunts me and creates those issues. Primarily, feelings of abandonment, of unworthiness of love. I still fight those internal battles. Not as often. Not daily. Not weekly. But not infrequently. For instance, I happened to watch the movie Steve Jobs. There is a moment where he is talking to John Sculley about being adopted and returned at 1 month old. He asks "what could a one year old do that was so bad that they returned me to the agency". That probably meant little to most viewers. To me, it sent me right back into the abandonment abyss. How can something so long ago still impact me so hard today?

You can't make the impact go away. So very many attributes of my personality, my attitude of what I will accept and what I won't can be traced back to that time period. I cannot imagine a child having been adopted NOT having behavior and developmental issues. There is a hole in them. One that can't be filled, only barricaded off and caution lights erected around so that you don't fall back into it. Oh, and a safety rope so you can climb out when you do fall back in.

Oddly, 2 of my best friends, long, long time friends, have a shared experience. One was adopted as an infant. The other was placed in an orphanage because his parents were too poor to feed him. Both have survived and are successful by all outward appearances. Both struggle, as I do, with the black hole of abandonment.

So be smart. Understand you can't gloss over this for the child you are adopting. I highly recommend psychological counseling for the child, especially when they get older. One of the best coping mechanisms my psychologists told me was to separate my life into 2 stages. The first being the stage where I did not have control (childhood and youth) and the 2nd being the stage where I did/do have control (adulthood). That I am not responsible for the decisions made and actions taken in the first, but I am for the 2nd. I use this thought to climb out of that black hole when somehow I fall back into it, like an unexpected moment in a movie that triggers it.

I agree. I would never use the word 'mom' to describe the woman who gave birth to me. I usually refer to her as, well that, 'the woman who gave birth to me'. If someone asks say, 'is your mom alive' I redirect the topic or when pressed say 'I don't have a mom' and move on. I would NEVER refer to her as my mom.

As further amplication, she is still alive. To this day, I refuse to visit the city where she lives. I won't even drive through it.

Obviously there's some history there. I hope someday you can gain something from it or move passed it. I have my own demons I'm dealing with regarding my real mom (the one who adopted me).

PM me if you need to get thing off your chest.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

We're just waiting for his handlers in the Kremlin to turn on the chip....

Not to worry you...but if he's that normal they already have :-)

~Matt

That's precisely the reason I'm worried. The 'programming' is too good…


The chip probably messes with his vision and that's why he's color blind. Hopefully the EnChroma glasses will put a wrench in Putin's plans...

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My mom was an orphan growing up, never adopted. Never had any family of her own. In her 40s she finally decided to look for her birth mom. Found the address she lived at then stopped. Couldn't bring herself to contact her.

Fast forward 20 years and she started searching again. As it turns out, someone in her family is a serious geneology guy. My mom has been connected with her brother, many cousins and Aunts/Uncles. Only two people in the family knew that she even existed.

Anyway, hers is definitely a good news story. Her family has completely embraced her and our family as one of their own. I have met a few of them. Apparently I am the spitting image of one of her cousins when he was young. I have only seen photos of him now (old, fat). I can see some similarities. It's been interesting for me because I never felt like I look like any of my siblings. I look most like my mom but I certainly don't look a lot like her.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yeah, I've met my bio family. Without getting into specifics, not everything about them is love and peaches but I can get passed it. Let's just say they me a huge favor by choosing not to raise me.

We're on friendly Facebook terms and that's about it. I have a half brother that seemingly want absolutely nothing to do with me which is fine.

My sister met her birth parents and on the maternal side it's all pretty good but her birth father is a complete ass. He won't even acknowledge her existence (50 years later!). I think he's about dead at this point anyway.

My brother found his birth parents and they tried to scam him out of money. It was his actual bio-parents and not people posing as them in some kind of scam. His birth parents tried to scam him…

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You can't make the impact go away. So very many attributes of my personality, my attitude of what I will accept and what I won't can be traced back to that time period.

I highly recommend psychological counseling for the child, especially when they get older. One of the best coping mechanisms my psychologists told me was to separate my life into 2 stages.

First thanks for sharing things from the other side.

What you state above is something I wish someone, anyone, would have said to us when our daughter was young. We were young, first time parents taking on a child from with in the family. Hell we were still planning our wedding when we got involved in the process.

We went about attempting to raise her as if she was our child, without the knowledge you give above. From our perspective, we were the parents, from hers we were as well, but nothing we could do would ever fill that hole and we had very little idea that hole even existed.

At the younger ages what we saw as "Typical kid stuff" wasn't necessarily that at all. It wasn't until things really started to spin out of control as she got older that we sought professional help for her, us and the entire family, by that point we had missed a whole lot of opportunity to get her the coping mechanisms and tools she needed.

To this day I feel that had we started with professional help at a much younger age we would have had a much better experience with much better outcomes, for her and us.

For the most part I don't think we as humans are very well equipped to deal with being parents when emotional conditions of the child are not fairly close to the norm. Abandonment of a child is about as far from the norm as we can possibly get for the human species. Most parents can certainly use help when trying to help a child cope and get thru these types of issues.

~Matt

Similar here. I have (full) siblings that I haven't seen or spoken to in several decades. They are strangers to me. I've got half siblings I haven't seen or spoken to in 40 years. My adult children never met them. As a coping mechanism I closed off virtually all contact with my family.

OTOH, we are all very close to my wife's family. They are very nurturing and good people.

Life can be fucked up sometimes. So those adopting, take these small windows of insight into the struggles of adopted children and orphans into consideration. Thank you for adopting, loving and caring for those children, but understand their will still be issues, many of which you will not necessarily understand.

Of course you didn't. You loved, nurtured and cared for her. You thought that was enough. Except you didn't know what you didn't know. You didn't know how big of a hole abandonment creates. What you needed was professional assistance but you didn't know that then.

Consider that moment from the Steve Jobs movie. He fortunately, was adopted by parents who loved and nurtured him. He loved them. Yet throughout his entire life he had a question that haunted him. "What could a one month old baby do that was so terrible that they returned him?". That was somewhat of a façade because he also had to deal with being put up for adoption twice in the first month of his life. There is no magic answer anyone could have given him that would have made that OK. More importantly, simply made it go away. You just can't.

What he needed, what I needed, what your daughter needed, was a way to cope with it all. Abandonment is a difficult emotion to wrestle with. I can't resolve it. I had to learn to 'wall it off'. To say to myself, 'I was not responsible for those events, I was a small child'. So I separate that. I am responsible for my adult decisions. I am responsible for my family (descendants). I will not repeat that pattern of behavior. I will have the relationship with my children that I wanted/needed when I was a child. That is how I cope. But I do know of many that never found a productive way of coping.

I talk to my wife sometimes about things that may come up with our son that she'll never understand.

I guess I'm lucky, as a parent of an adopted child, being also adopted myself.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

This. Exactly this. Couldn't have said it better myself. Bottom line is that you can't expect to parent the way you might a bio-child.

Agreed. I have explained the 'whys' to my wife and she hears but I don't think she really understands, despite her best attempts. She grew up in a Ozzie/Harriet family structure.

Thank you for sharing that. As a psychologist, I intellectually "knew" these issues when we started fostering and then adopted, but I guess my heart didn't fully grasp the magnitude of the loss associated with abandonment by one's biological parents until I saw the depth of the hole and the strength of the longing. As a foster or adoptive parent, you feel like the love and care you are pouring into this child should make up for all the bad things and it's hard not to take it personally when it doesn't -- even if you know better. I understand it better now, as much as it can be understood by someone who hasn't lived through it, but definitely always appreciate the input from someone who has experienced it.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I wasn't adopted and was raised in a relatively normal family. So understanding what it's like to have been adopted doesn't come to me naturally and is something where I have to make an effort to get. It's sometimes easy to assume my adopted child's experiences are similar to my other children's. And that's probably true the vast majority of the time, but it isn't always true. Her birth mom is still in her life -- she sends presents from time to time, letters, and we allow a visit once a year or so. So there is some understanding that her birth mother cares deeply for her, even a potential understanding that she allowed the adoption to proceed precisely out of that love. But my daughter also asks about her birth dad from time to time, and he's not someone I will allow in her life at this time.

We have meet with a counselor and have discussed how to spot and deal with issues that arise. And while we're optimistic, we also recognize that she may have a greater propensity to mental illness to the extent that's inheritable.

You're right that adopted children face different issues. Those issues are not insurmountable, but they're something adoptive parents need to be aware of and prepared for.

Thank you for the kind words. They made me tear up, especially so close to Mother's Day, and I kind of had to sit on it for day. Thanks aren't necessary -- we did it to make a difference for a child and I think we've done that -- but I appreciate the acknowledgment. You've done much the same.

I (somehow) know that you honestly mean that. That is part of the reason you are so deserving of thanks.

You do what you're doing because that's what you do. I get it. That's why I can never thank you enough.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Thank you for sharing your experience. I think this is very important as it gives me (us) some insight into what could be going on in our adoptive child's mind.
I really appreciate everyone's input. Heck, I'm impressed that even Duffy can talk about serious stuff for a few lines ;-)

I'll post just to give a different view. I was adopted as a baby (1 week) and have never felt a "hole" or felt like I was abandoned. Quite the opposite, my parents often told me (and my brother who was adopted from a different area) that they chose us because they knew we were the ones for them. Honestly, the idea of abandonment never crossed my mind until this thread. I never had any issues growing up that could be associated with my adoption and very rarely ever think of it except to smile when people say I look like my mom or ask if my dad is tall (I'm a 6'1" woman.) And now that my mom is in memory care with severe dementia, nothing can make me smile like walking into the room and having her say "there's my beautiful daughter." I know my story is unusual, and I was very fortunate, but t wanted to point out that not ALL adopted children have a hole in their lives.

For those that had much harder roads, I'm very sorry and hope you all find happiness.

I was adopted as a baby (1 week) and have never felt a "hole" or felt like I was abandoned.

I think timing of adoption makes a HUGE difference. My understanding and walk away from counseling and therapy is that there is a whole lot of "Hard wiring" that takes place in the early years. If that does not take place, something that can happen even when you're with the birth parents under certain conditions, there are very long term effects of that that are often negative.

~Matt

Ah, Duffy. I have no issue with his sense of humor. I take it as a defense mechanism. I think much of his razzing, sarcasm, humor are likely his technique for coping. Sometimes, mine too.

I respect greatly that as an adoptee he is also an adoptor. That is not normal. I couldn't. The pain would be overwhelming. So while he will say he doesn't need big props for being and adoptor, yeah, as an adoptee he needs all he can get. Big, big props to you Duffy. Thank you.

When I say that the 'feelings' are not infrequent, let me also say they are not planned. They may be years apart. They arrive when something triggers them. Like the Steve Jobs movie.

I watched the Ron Howard movie Cinderalla Man, once. Never, ever again. Holy crap. There was a scene where they take their kids to an orphanage to give them up because they couldn't feed them. I was at a movie theater with my family. I had to get up and walk out because I was crying. I was in my 50's and yet suddenly I was 4 years old again. Afterwards, I explained to my children that I can never watch that movie again because it was too real.

A decade or so ago we had dinner at Cracker Barrel restaurant. No big deal. But I was killing time, waiting while my wife used the restroom, looking at the eclectic crap they sell there. I froze. There was the little trinket toy I got at Xmas in the orphanage when I was 4. Back came the memories of Xmas, alone in an orphanage. Not good. Not good at all. I have never eaten at Cracker Barrel since.

For many years, my wife bought toys at Xmas and donated them to the Toys for Tots program. I encouraged her. But I couldn't help her. I couldn't shop for the toys. Then one year we volunteered at the Ronald McDonald House and when Xmas rolled around they had all these toys for the kids. I struggled. My psychologist had me physically pick up toy after toy, hold it, feel it. That worked. I can now help.

This is the 'abyss' I refer to. It is not a good place. I have to avoid it. I am struggling writing about it, but think helping those wonderful people who have adopted children gain a scintilla of understanding that they need to teach how to cope, not how to forget, nor how to ignore, trumps my discomfort. Get them the professional help to learn how to cope.

That is all. No more for me on this topic. I think I will get a beer, go sit on the dock, and watch the sun set.

I lost my dad unexpectedly less than 2 years ago. He was healthy but 84. Just didn't wake up. Every so often I'll watch something that will make me think of him, or hear something or whatever and I'll tear up. Really fast.
But this is something that we all anticipate at some stage. The feelings you get are much deeper so I'm sure no matter how I try I can't come close to how you felt. But duly noted nonetheless. Professional help is on our list. Once again, thank you and everyone else.

This is a good thread. Good luck to all on your different journeys. You are doing wonderful things and will continue to do wonderful things regardless of who is in the White House.

That's generally my experience as well (as someone who was adopted). I sought out my birth parents mainly out of curiosity. It was (parts of) their story that opened up some weirdness.

My dad died when I was 19 so maybe I was trying to fill that hole...

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

There are things more important indeed...

It's me coping with a mind full of funny shit.

The family I grew up in aways laughed and had fun. My grandfather was an undertaker with a wicked sense of humor and little sense of anything else. My father carried that on and was a practical joker (both the victim and the perpetrator) to the very end. When things got tough the jokes kept coming. It's not really a coping mechanism, per se. It's just how our family rolls through life. It just so happens we've had to put up with a lot of loss and insanity.

I'm lucky to have a sense of humor.


Thanks.

We tried to have kids the regular way and it didn't work (no matter how much sperm Mrs. Duffy swallowed she just wouldn't get pregnant). The decision to adopt was a no brainer. For me, adoption is the normal way. I was a little surprised that Mrs. Duffy jumped on the bandwagon so quickly.

It is for us.


Obviously our situations are different. And, again, PM me if you want to talk (I mean it).


I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, but in all candor we just wanted to have and raise a child. Our reasons for adopting were purely selfish. The outcome is that a boy doesn't grow up in a Russian orphanage but our intent was never to save children from Russian orphanages.
Again, though, I appreciate your kind word.

I have a friend who is having trouble making babies the old fashion way and have been going through much the same shit we did (I actually have a lot of friends who have gone through fertility problems (something in the food?)) and I've brought up adoption with them but, like many, they're 'uncomfortable' with idea. Same shit, 'passing down genes' and all that.

Passing genes was never important to me because my father's genetics hit a dead end, and so did my own (must be genetic…). Plus, honestly, Mrs. Duffy has some seriously fucked up genes in her lineage.

But to many 'blood' is important.

As a side note when I see families together and they all look very much alike it's kind of creepy.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Thank you. Your child that you love will thank you.

You'd be surprised.

I lost my dad 26 years ago and it still happens to me.

A couple of years ago I found a mini tape recorder while helping my sister clean our her garage.

I took it home and saw that it had a tape in it and I pressed play. My dad made a recording just days before he died (long battle with brain cancer). He knew he was on his way out and want to record some things…for us.

I pressed play, listened, and cried like a baby for an hour. I'm crying as I type this, actually.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

All of the above trouble me when it comes to telling our boy about his origins. He was young enough that he doesn't have any memories other than us and our family. But, someday we have to tell him and it kills me to open up wounds that don't currently exist.

I think that there is a better understanding of child development now than when I was raised. (i.e. attachment theory, bonding, etc.) Personally, I see that making a big difference in terms of the size and impact of the "hole" another poster referred to. Even though neither has a memory, I would also suggest that there is a difference between a child adopted at one week versus one adopted at six months.

As a clinical psychologist and adoptive parent, I can confirm that timing is a critical factor, although there are many adoptees adopted into wonderful homes at birth who still suffer from abandonment issues as adults. But, under those ideal circumstances, many do not. My impression is that the kids we are talking about here are generally not those given up for adoption at birth, but are infants, children, and adolescents who have experienced some significant trauma prior to landing in a potential adoptive home, whether that trauma be emotional or physical. My son, for instance, who spent most of 12 years in the foster care system (5 years with us), had been in a minimum of 8 different foster homes by the age of 7. And, really, you can't imagine the circumstances under which foster children are moved out of foster homes. It's often, "you're leaving right now; grab your things and throw them in this trash bag," and then they are dropped into a new home, with people they've never met, other kids they don't know, a neighborhood and school they've never seen -- and this happens to infant, toddlers, children, and especially adolescents over and over. This is all on top of whatever horrible things may have happened in their biological home before they were removed. Seriously, it's a miracle, and a testament to human resilience, that any of them survive -- and you can imagine the dedication it takes from foster/adoptive parents, professionals, teachers, etc. to get them to that point of survival.

Day 2 of training was yesterday. The attendance was a LOT less than it was in week 1. To a large extent, I have the feeling that
1. all the training could easily be done reading the material
2. they do this over 9 weeks (3h each) only to get to know people, and weed out folks.
I can't say I have learned a lot thus far. Hopefully this will change.

I don't recall learning much from any of the classes I took (but, from what I've been told numerous times here, I'm an idiot so your results may be better).

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Welcome to your students' world ;)

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===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

I just do research and have PhD students ;)

So after the first couple of classes, we did learn a bit actually, even if only procedural stuff. But it was enlightening. We have just finished the course, and have 'graduation' this evening.
We will be contacted this week for the beginning of the home study (the stuff we had to fill was longer than a mortgage application) and after the home study is completed (a couple of months) we will be ready for the adoption process per se.

after the home study is completed (a couple of months) we will be ready for the adoption process per se.

Best of luck to you.

~Matt

It's awesome that you're making progress. Just keep grinding away and be supportive of your wife.

Congratulations on this step of the process.

Keep us updated!

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

As some of you suggested, it is a fair amount of grinding away. Our home study was finally approved. Definitely not the 2 months after completion of the the course that we had planned, but we are legally approved to adopt a child.
Congrats to the agency, they go faster than USCIS to approve US citizenship (one year and counting since I applied and got fingerprinted and approved).

This thread has been a really emotional read. I have no experience with adoption, but I get really upset when I think about children suffering through no fault of their own. Beautiful, innocent lives do not deserve to suffer.

So to read about everyone here, your stories, your pain or your efforts to try and right the wrongs, to offer love and stability to those fragile and damaged little minds, is truly inspirational. Each and every one of you gives me hope for the future. In an era where logging on often just inundates my thoughts with images of selfishness, greed, narcissism, pain, suffering or evil, I enter this thread and I find good.

I wish you all sincere best wishes on the journey you are starting out on or the journey you have commenced. Congratulations to those who have completed theirs and made a real difference. For those who are still hurting I hope you find the means to reconcile the pain.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb