I suspect it means that, for children over a certain age, parental rights may have already been terminated or, if not, termination is not going to be challenged. For others, potentially regardless of age, it may mean that social services has made some kind of preliminary determination on the likelihood of reunification, based upon circumstances and experience.

Legally free to adopt means that either parents have relinquished their rights or that the court has decided so.

I'm sure you have representation on this and all is good but "Relinquishing rights" is far more water tight then the court deciding the rights should be relinquished.

In our case the Bio dad was no where to be found. We had to jump through many hoops including publishing things in newspapers for some odd period of time in the last known locations and many other things. The court finally decided that the fathers rights were severed. They nearly did an about face on the entire thing the second the father showed up until we convinced the father not to move forward.

~Matt

I suspect it means that, for children over a certain age, parental rights may have already been terminated or, if not, termination is not going to be challenged. For others, potentially regardless of age, it may mean that social services has made some kind of preliminary determination on the likelihood of reunification, based upon circumstances and experience.

And what I'm trying to say is that there are probably many different ways to wind up under the category of "Free to adopt" and I suspect that some may be more troublesome then others.

As I said having both parents sign a piece of paper saying "We relinquish parental rights to the state" or whatever is far different then "We tried to find the parent, could not for some period of time, filed papers, no one responded, so the court severed parental rights". Speaking from experience the later is not so water tight :-)

I suspect that both of the above scenarios could end up under the category of "Free to adopt", maybe going thru an agency is more insulative then a direct adoption under those conditions, no idea.

~Matt

The former isn't so water tight either.

Our old neighbor was fostering a boy named Max for about a year. The birth mom (from prison) gave up her rights so the adoption process was started.

8 months later birth mom is out on parole, cleaned up and wants Max back. Of course the wizards of Smart that run these things decides it's 'in the best interest' of Max to be 'reunited' with his 'real mom' (some lady he never knew).

I was with my neighbor when took max away. I could have killed.

6 months later Max is beaten by birth mom and her boyfriend.

Max goes back into foster system. CPS refuses to allow my neighbor to either adopt or foster Max.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That's exactly the kind of stuff I want to hear about actually...It seems that in FL at least, it's pretty tight when rights have been foregone.

This is predictable bureaucracy run amok.

---

---

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I actually thought long and hard before posting that (probably a first for me!). I don't want to let worse case scenarios scare you out doing this and the whole process is emotional enough without you having to worry about these things.

Our Russian adoption went really well. There were bumps in the long road but in the end I couldn't have dreamed of a better outcome. We halted our domestic adventure because it basically bled us dry financially and emotionally. If we hadn't already successfully adopted our son we would have soldiered on with the domestic adoption.

To give you some perspective, we know personally several parents who have done adoptions (age ranging from new to 9) and know of dozens. All happy stories.

I only know (personally) of the one described above and another that got caught up in the political mess of US/Russian relations (thanks, Obama!).

Don't let the nightmare stories get to you.

Man up and press on.

Again, best wishes to you and your family. It's a journey.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My husband and I fostered and then adopted an older child out of foster care in California, and I'm also a clinical psychologist who has worked with a number of foster children in the past, so know both the emotional issues and "the system" well. I don't want to talk too much about my son in a public place, as I don't think it's fair to him, but his is definitely the standard foster care story. Drug addicted parents, drug addicted baby, in and out of the system, multiple foster homes until he landed in ours at age 7. As has been said, these kids don't come without baggage -- the bio parents are a wreck, the foster care system is a wreck, and the courts/laws are the biggest wreck of them all. We found there were foster children whose needs were so extreme we couldn't meet them, especially with both of us working, and it was incredibly heart-wrenching the one time things didn't work out. We didn't really go into fostering with the intent to adopt, but after a couple of years we knew we couldn't let our son go and adopted him. I won't lie -- it's crazy hard parenting a child with so much damage. You really have to not get caught up in comparisons to kids who have lived stable lives and realize success in all likelihood will be defined differently and will happen on a different timeline. Your limits and sanity will be tested, even more so than they are with your biological children. We all made it through, our son is 28 years old now and doing well. He works full time, has a nice girlfriend, has never been in trouble, stays away from drugs and alcohol, and is mature enough to appreciate the difference we made in his life. But it was a long, hard journey getting here.

I don't know how other states work, but California will not sever parental rights until there is a serious potential adoptive parent. It was explained to me, but I don't remember the explanation -- something about not creating "legal orphans." So, in California, parental rights are retained by the biological parents even if the child has been in foster care for years and years and the parents have done nothing to prove they are capable of caring for that child. That does not mean they will send the child home with the parents; they just won't terminate their parental rights. The courts have hearings every 6 months to update the child's status; biological parents are allowed to attend if they like, but foster parents are not. Like I said, messed up system. When we decided to adopt our son at age 11, his biological mother did fight it, from her home in jail. That dragged things on for a little bit, but obviously it worked out for us (and him). Feel free to PM for additional info. Jordan's wife Jill can vouch for me -- she knows me and has met my son.

Thank you.

For what you do.

You do what most never will (including myself).

Thank you.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

The former isn't so water tight either.

Agreed, but far more water tight then the later. As Francois points out below it's different in different states and I suspect different by agency. IL seems to be ridiculously protective of parental rights. Sounds like CA is as well. I suspect that maybe states like Texas, probably no so much.

~Matt

I don't want to let worse case scenarios scare you out doing this and the whole process is emotional enough without you having to worry about these things.

Why not? Isn't it better to have the knowledge and decide not to go forward then not have the knowledge and decide when you're well into the process that you really don't want to do it anymore? I guess I'm speaking more about the very real discussion surrounding the potential difficulties with adopting older kids. It's really nothing like raising your own bio kids and can be much more difficult for a plethora of reasons.

I'm not saying it will definitely be that way, but odds are relatively high that it will be that way, certainly far higher then with a bio kid.

It can be an absolute blessing or a pure prolonged gut wrenching chaotic sort of hell. IF you can't accept that with the knowledge that you may get nothing in return other then the knowing that you're doing the good and right thing, maybe another option is a better choice.

I'd probably do it again in a heartbeat if it were a family member or a kid I knew in need, but if my wife suggested we should adopt an older kid just for the sake of raising another child I'd probably come down with a "Nay" vote....then again I'm damn near 150 years old so I'm probably not a prime candidate :-)

~Matt

I don't know how other states work, but California will not sever parental rights until there is a serious potential adoptive parent. It was explained to me, but I don't remember the explanation -- something about not creating "legal orphans." So, in California, parental rights are retained by the biological parents even if the child has been in foster care for years and years and the parents have done nothing to prove they are capable of caring for that child.

I believe that may only be true if the child was over three when placed in foster care.

I believe that it is statutorily a different matter and different track if the child is under three years old. That they will terminate parental rights regardless of whether there are adoptive parents in waiting. But as I posted above, I believe that's in recognition that it's a lot easier to adopt out a young child than an older one, and that if they don't act in a timely manner, they may lose out on opportunities to adopt the child out.

Because I knew Francios would hear it from all corners and I didn't want to pile on.

When mrs Duffy and I decided to adopt from Russia all we ever heard from people (mostly from people who didn't know jack shit about it) was nightmare stories. Malnutrition, fetal alcohol syndrome, reactive attachment disorder, speech problems, cleft pallet, future murderer, Russian mafia was going to steal him, we were going to get scammed, kidnapped, murdered!!!!

The only positive feedback we got was from the agency and a couple of families.

The reality is we couldn't have adopted a more normal kid. He's as normal as normal gets. He's freakishly normal (well he's colorblind).

We're just waiting for his handlers in the Kremlin to turn on the chip....

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That may be true. Although my experience is with someone who entered the system before age 3, it was long ago and I know that laws were changed in an attempt to make adoption of young children in foster care a more attractive and less onerous option. I also believe that foster parents may now have the option of speaking during the 6 month review hearings.

Guy I used to work with (and wife) adopted a girl from a Russia. They brought her back to the US and she was not a very happy child and had problems adjusting. At some point they learned it was because she missed her two sisters. Co-worker's family did not know she had sisters, I guess it wasn't disclosed for some reason. Anyway, guy and wife go back to Russia and somehow adopt the sisters too! Good story and I no longer work with him but see pictures of the family, all smiles and I think they are now in High school or possible even in college.

Crazy story.

I only have peripheral experience with it, through friends and colleagues. One rule of thumb that I heard is that it took roughly one year with you, for every year before you, in order to reach a level of "normalcy". These examples were usually/always foriegn adoptions of children under five years old.

Best of luck. you will have the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. It will be very stressful, tremendously rewarding and enormously beneficial to the children that you foster or adopt.

my son has several biological siblings he's never met. His birth mother gave up parental rights at birth and he immediately became a ward of the state.

We don't have much more info than that.

I was also adopted, have an older brother and sister (also adopted (all from different bio moms)).

As an adult I found my birth parents. On my birth mom's side I have a brother and 3 sisters (half). On birth fathers side I have 2 half brothers. We are all Facebook friends but I never interact with them in person.

A general note to everyone involved in adoption:

When you go searching you might never be prepared for what you find.

When a mother gives up her child the circumstances that predicated it are never good.

I'll just leave it at that.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

A bit of a crazy adoption related story:

An old co-worker of mine was adopted. I knew she had a rough childhood, but, didn't really know the extent of it. She was one of 9 (9!!!) kids adopted into one family. This family consisted of the Two parents, who had 3 biological kids, and 9 adopted kids. When I met these people, the kids were all grown (teenaged to late 20's), and all wonderful, kind, intelligent, and genuinely warm people to be around. I don't believe in angels, but, I think those parents are the closest living thing you could find. How you can build a family like that, so full of love and success, from such broken beginnings, is beyond me.

Anyways, 10 years later, my old co-worker, now a mom of 2 herself, lifted the publication ban on her backstory and wrote a memoire. Herself and her 2 bio siblings were all being molested and abused by her bio dad. Bio mom was being beaten by bio dad. Eventually, bio mom snapped, drove the kids to a park, doused them all, herself included, in gasoline and lit a match in the car. My friend was the oldest (I think 6-7 years old), and was able to get out of the car. She was the only survivor, and she sat there, a child, in the dark, watching her siblings and mom burn to death. Her dad is in prison to this day, where he will be until he dies.

It's a really hard thing to make sense of. How she turned out to be so, for lack of better words, normal, is just incredible. Like I said before, she is a great mother of two with this incredibly large, loving family. She now volunteers extensively with various groups for abused women.

I'm not posting this as some adoption horror story to scare Francois, but more-so as an example of what good can occasionally come from the absolute worst scenarios.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

So the people who adopted her molested and tried to burn her?

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My apologies, poor writing on my part.

Bio dad was the abuser, bio mom killed herself and her other original siblings.

She was then adopted by two people who are god's gift to humanity, as far as I'm concerned. They had three biological kids, adopted my friend, plus 8 others, and somehow raised them all in to wonderful adults.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

Hate to be an "activist" here but to be more clear in the future use the terms "birth parents" or "bio parents" (birth mom, birth dad, etc.) for the people who donated egg, sperm and womb.

"Mom", "dad", "parents", etc. are terms for the people who adopted and raised the kids. Sometimes "adoptive parents" is used but it's kind of grating to my ears.

Again, I'm no activist and I take no offense to those who use the "wrong" terminology. Just giving you a heads up.

Believe me, there are some nutty adoption activist out there just waiting to be offended.

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Got it, thanks for the heads up.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

You'll be burned at the stake if you say "real parents" when referring to birth parents.

:)

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I don't think it is particularly unusual for children to be split from their siblings during the Russian adoption process. Our son has two older, biological siblings that, at least at the time of his birth, were still with the bio mom. She relinquished all rights to our son at birth and as far as I know hasn't seen him since the day he was born.

My wife is adopted and there was some drama with her bio mom. Part of the reason we went foreign, and Russian is that we figured it unlikely some crackhead Siberian would ever get it together and gather the resources to mess with us in the middle of America even if she wanted to.

I write this reluctantly. I had skipped over the post topic for 2 days because I didn't want to see what might be in it. I don't share this information with, well, anyone. Maybe a handful of people throughout my life know. The blow by blow of the backstory is irrelevant. I am not going to pick at that scab. But Alan stated something that resonates to this day within me so I want to explain something from the other side of adoption. I was an orphan. I lived in an orphanage. Yeah, they don't call them that today, but that is what they are. A place where they place kids whose parents don't want them anymore or can't take care of them any longer. Mine was a combination of both.

I survived. Somehow, I survived my childhood. I am a credentialed professional. Fairly wealthy. Live in a home worth 7 figures with a picturesque view of a lake. 40+ year stable marriage. My children have advanced education degrees and are doing well in life. But what you see is not the full story. I was an orphan and 60 years later, it still haunts me and creates those issues. Primarily, feelings of abandonment, of unworthiness of love. I still fight those internal battles. Not as often. Not daily. Not weekly. But not infrequently. For instance, I happened to watch the movie Steve Jobs. There is a moment where he is talking to John Sculley about being adopted and returned at 1 month old. He asks "what could a one year old do that was so bad that they returned me to the agency". That probably meant little to most viewers. To me, it sent me right back into the abandonment abyss. How can something so long ago still impact me so hard today?

You can't make the impact go away. So very many attributes of my personality, my attitude of what I will accept and what I won't can be traced back to that time period. I cannot imagine a child having been adopted NOT having behavior and developmental issues. There is a hole in them. One that can't be filled, only barricaded off and caution lights erected around so that you don't fall back into it. Oh, and a safety rope so you can climb out when you do fall back in.

Oddly, 2 of my best friends, long, long time friends, have a shared experience. One was adopted as an infant. The other was placed in an orphanage because his parents were too poor to feed him. Both have survived and are successful by all outward appearances. Both struggle, as I do, with the black hole of abandonment.

So be smart. Understand you can't gloss over this for the child you are adopting. I highly recommend psychological counseling for the child, especially when they get older. One of the best coping mechanisms my psychologists told me was to separate my life into 2 stages. The first being the stage where I did not have control (childhood and youth) and the 2nd being the stage where I did/do have control (adulthood). That I am not responsible for the decisions made and actions taken in the first, but I am for the 2nd. I use this thought to climb out of that black hole when somehow I fall back into it, like an unexpected moment in a movie that triggers it.