Is this a knock on Desert Dude?

On myself, I'm training for a marathon in '07.

Have you picked which marathon yet? Taking on Erik Clark again ;-) ?

Whew. Thx for the news. I was this <> close to inquiring on your services.

Now can you explain why they charge so freaking much?

If you don't hire me, the lesson you're teaching me is that it's not worth it to be nice to strangers on a bike ;-)

But this thread is not about me!!!

Paulo, I just have to say, I LOVE your posts.

I agree with what you've written - well said.

Joel

The great coaches are the ones that have the ability to detach themselves from their own experiences and live the experiences of the athletes they coach.

Of course. I would hope so.

All the truly great coaches throughout the years were not and are not competitive athletes.

ALL ??? There are a few coaches of other sports (team sports) who were pretty great in their day. Of course I am thinking baseball, basketball, (American) football. Perhaps also tennis, golf ... You know soccer and cycling better: So there were no great soccer coaches who were once very good? Cyclists neither? And none in triathlon?

Nice post, Paulo.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Now who is going to invite you to the annual coaches meetings if you alienate everyone?? ;)
Seriously, you put this much more eloquently than I would have...well done. I just hope I picked the right bike tire.

hmmm ... i believe both you and Paulo were decent triathetes at one point ... so does that put you both in the crappy coach category

I didn't know you were this FUNNY!

Obviously there is A LOT you dont know ;) JK I love your posts!

Yes it's true that I raced for the Quiznos racing team at one point in time, but fortunately never reached a high level and decided to focus on coaching exclusively.

Joel

If I can add my own experience on the subject, I have been trained by two good athletes in my area. Both went to Kona they have coached me for a year and as Paulo well said they always spoke from their own experience... I did this set, I did this ride, I felt this way, I did this amount of volume, etc. At the end, in both cases I end-up with my worst IM results...

But I have to said to their defense that I never work on a long-term goal (more than 1 year)... I want fast results and now (this year), I don't want to wait 2-3 years... I guess this is probably one of the biggest mistakes that I have made in the past instead of look more on a long-term plan...

Right, and there is no such thing as a brilliant woman who is also gorgeous.

Being physiologically superior does not mean one cannot possess superior powers of observation as well.

liar!!!! i remember you beating me at duathlon national many years ago....i think you were racing under Swiss Chalet international racing team

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

"I want fast results and now (this year), I don't want to wait 2-3 years... I guess this is probably one of the biggest mistakes that I have made in the past instead of look more on a long-term plan... "

It took me five years of racing TT's to break 27mph avg for 20k

New coach (me) says I can do 28.5mph next summer, win some races, and get my USCF CAT 2 upgrade, and I believe him

I decided to become a cycling coach this year, and coach myself (USA Cycling Level III licensed coach)

:)

I have a swim coach (Haydn Woolley) he's a top level ex-pro and had the fastest IM swim split for a number of years. He is also an excellent coach. He has the right blend of experience, knowledge, motivation etc etc. He's awesome.

I have a tri coach that mainly writes programs for me. He's still a very good triathlete and has only just been off the podium in several big races in the last year or so, even though he is now in his early 40's. Right around 9 hours IM time and just over 4 hours 1/2 IM. Walter Thorburn is his name and he's awesome too. Completely different guy than Haydn, but amazing in a different way. He is completely obsessed with triathlon, and even makes me look like I don't care!

I am very lucky to have these two guys. They are both ex-top level pro's but I don't think that is particularly important. It just happens to be the case for them. They have both helped enormously in my struggle from BOP to MOP and I owe them both a huge debt of gratitude for their assistance.

I think it's most important to get a coach the works with/for you, rather than just churning out a monthly program from a computer. What background they bring to the game isn't that important. That they make you better (or the best you can be) and that you are comfortable with their methods is what counts.

Remember that those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. (neither of the preceding are meant to be negative in any way)

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Good point Paulo, but I assume that you are saying that current top athletes don't make great coaches. This is in general true. But there are many former great athletes who are great coaches now. They are still fast now, but now as fast as they were. Is this what you mean?

-C

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------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

I agree with you, but I would add that not all great athletes make great coaches either. If many current competitive athletes are "flavor of the day" coaches, former great athletes are often, but not always, "good old days" coaches.

"Good old days" coaches remain too tied to their own experiences as athletes and have a difficulty in adptating to the new nuances in the sport. They often repeat what worked for them and nothing else more. Those coaches are also quite easy to spot, they're saying now what they were saying 10-15 years ago. They use outdated concepts and methods. Very often out of respect they're not contradicted and fail to receive (constructive) criticism that would make them question their methods and improve.

It's not so much "from their own experience" that troubles me as much as something I see with great frequency. A superior athlete might not know how or why they are so fast. It comes so naturally to them that they have a difficult time breaking down the elements of the skill. This pertains all to often to the technical side of coaching - or we could call it actualy teaching. Slowman divided tri coaches into two areas the hands on and the distant writer of programs.

Of course there are great athletes who can explain how a lesser athlete can improve but those with great talent in physical engine and great talent in communication are rare combo.

Coming to triathlon a bit later in life, and having switched from a from teaching & coaching skiing to multisport - I feel I'm a better coach for that than if I had be a highschool cross country champ, or swam since I was a tot or the like.

Perspective and communication - far better values in a coach than their PR.
Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I agree with you, but I would add that not all great athletes make great coaches either. If many current competitive athletes are "flavor of the day" coaches, former great athletes are often, but not always, "good old days" coaches.
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Wow, I guess Mark Allen must be in the process on closing down his coaching business with this news.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Dear Julian,

There must be something wrong with your editor, you quote my words, but you're replying to Colin. If I were you, I would get that checked.

Thank you very much for your positive contribution to the thread.

how come I am agreeing with you all of a sudden?

The gym where I started boxing many years ago had a recent world champ coaching. He was still a very competitive fighter. He was a natural athlete - light, very strong for his size, super fast, really talented guy. Watching this guy scrap was amazing - I have never in person seen anyone move as fast as him, and when you sparred him the little f**** would always pepper you with shots you just didn'ty see. He was quite brilliant, and also a complete asshole, and I mean that in every sense of the word.

Anyway, the fighters he produced were just terrible. He treated them all as if they had his gifts. So there was no defence, he never taught them footwork, he never developed a fight plan around that boxer's unique talents, for the simple reason that he knew one way to fight, which was the way he fought. As a result his coaching manual had one page.

In a way this was good for me and my coaching partner because guys would go and train with the ex world champ, they would get a series of hidings and then some of them (ok the ones we thought might make fighters) would come to us, train about six months...and start winning.

So I completely agree. Often successful athletes know one way to win - their way. They have never had to think too much about how there might be other paths to a particular goal.

BTW...I really do admire your posts.

---

kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

Dear Paulo, thank you for taking the time to look over my post to Colin. My editor appears to be functioning prefectly in what is known as a sub plot. Your sincere concern for my welfare is touching, I must apologise for contributing to the thread as I didn't realise that it was an invitation only thread.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Great Post , but I have the exception.

Johann Bruneyll

He was pretty good pro in his day.

not a coach....director sportif.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Kurt, maybe Ronnie is coached by Johann.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I think the "been there, done that" experience is something that is very valuable in a coach. If Paulo's suggestion that the competitive athlete would be too involved in their own training then I would guess the best coach to look for would be someone who has retired from competition and also been a competitive athlete.

yea, maybe. I bet he has a lot of free time.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

The two best coaches I have ever had:

Water Polo (Steve Heston: One of the best players in the US before he eventually went on to coach the USA Olympic Team)

Swimming (Tracey McFarlane-Mirande: Olympic silver medalist and most technique oriented swim coach I have ever seen)

I assume as the sport of Triathlon ages we will see more of the greats giving back to the sport.

Jim

>>I assume as the sport of Triathlon ages we will see more of the greats giving back to the sport. <<

We already have.

Paulo's becoming the "I think I'm intellectual" swimfan.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

This is really interesting and rings true in many sports I have played as well. When I think back to the best and most talented coaches I had in hockey, they all had one thing in common. They were students of the game. They read everything, watched everything and studied everything hockey all the time. Whereas the dudes who were ex-NHLers or ex Junior league players never really studied the game as much as they rested on what talent they had to get them by as coaches.
Some of the best coaches are the ones who study all aspects of the game, not the ones who were great at the game themselves.

LOL.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

hehe.

I agree with you. I don't know what a "Truly Great" coach is, but I would have to think that gordo, Mark Allen, et al are at least near the top.

Just because you were/are good, doesn't mean you can't be a student of the game and be in tune with your athletes. Indeed, I think if anything that those who speak in absolutes is more indicative of someone that might have trouble tuning in to their athletes.

LMAO

Unfortunately I had to live through this scenario with my last coach, who is a very gifted elite athlete. But who doesn't believe in testing, a heart rate monitor or anything but his own racing strategy, "go out as fast and hard as you can and pray your body holds on." He doesn't believe in swims over 1800-2000 since he doesn't like to swim and thinks anything over that is a waste of time.

I have 4 bad HIMs to prove that his theory works great on an elite athlete but not one like me who is not elite. I actually did better when I trained myself.

Further still, he has a cookie cutter approach that assumes that all of his adult athletes are time challenged. So one of my best assets - which is time since I work for myself - was not used.

But I know this is not going to be the case anymore!! ;-)

I think there are people who understand that it's the system that is helping them deliver the personal results and those that think it is merely there innate talent. People who understand the former -- Mark Scott, Dave Allen, Mitch Gold, Rich Strauss, Scott Jones, etc. -- make very good coaches in my opinion. There are too many examples that go against your assumed convention.

I find your post very Dev like. You seem to posting because you think people want to hear what you have to say, not that which is truly insightful. Maybe you guys are the same person.

WHen this sport started in the late 70's, virtually all of us were self coached, and remained so throughout our careers. We made a lot of mistakes, it was basically trial and error. Start with 150 miles a week cycling, and after 3 or 4 years we were doing 300 to 500. SOme guys would do weeks of 600(mostly Germans), so where was the breaking point, and would we be better served to go faster, for a shorter period?? Most of us answered those questions for ourselves in all 3 diciplines and how to balance them, and I got to witness the answes that others figured out also. Lots of different answers, so any cookie cutter approach today is not worthy as great coaching. I've had swimming and running coaches, and in my case, they were former great athletes. They were able to communicate to me the nuances that make average good athletes, into great athletes. That is what I needed, but if I were a BOP'er starting out, then I would need a lot less, and probably for several years, maybe forever, depending on my goals.

I once spent some time in Dave Scott's program in Boulder in the early 90's, just as a drop in for workouts. I found his program to be very informative, and his athletes all seemed to like him and did well in his programs. I can't say what is happening now with him, but I assume he does allright, and apparently coaches quite a few people. I heard a lot good things about Gordo and his approach, somewhat like Molinas, but there again, I have no direct expirence with those two as coaches. Tim SHeeper up in Nor Cal. has a great program, coaching 100's of athletes, and he continues to race pro at 43 years old. Mike McMahon is anotrher guy that has had great sucess with pros, not sure about his AG'ers, also a former and current great athlete. There are coaches that throw a lot of the "More is More" at a whole group, and wait for the few to surface that can handle it. THe Germans and CHinese were famous for that stragedy. It obviously worked for some, and they would go on to greatness, but the climb to the top was littered with 100's of broken bodies, many of which could have also been great under a different approach. And most of those programs are run by regular coaches, and not former greats of the sports.

I guess my point here is that I agree with Paulo, except that I take his arguement a bit further and say that regular coaches also make bad coaches. I see them all the time, and USAT level 1 and 2 certificates mean almost nothing. Just that you have spent some money and time, and can go to class for a few days. Most good coaches that I know now, only get the certs to fill out their resume for the average uninformed potential client. It's like the old merit badge system, the guy with the most, must be the best, it's just business. IF that is all you have, which many do, then you have almost no background to be coaching triathletes. The fact that someone has done the sport for a very long time, and been sucessfull, is worth a level 10 credential. Now how you use and impart that information is the key. DO you hold to your standard for every athlete like Paulo suggests?? THen you waste your knowledge, and only benifit those that are exactly like you were. And yes, there are some of these out there. Do you use that knowledge, and all the information you learned from your peers, to tailor programs for individuals, that fit more closley with others that were similar to your clients? THen you are using your vast and varied potential as a coach, and probably doing a great job. And there are many of these coaches out there also.

I don't think that having been a great athlete, or not, has much to do with how well one will coach a variety of athletes. There is a whole list of positive attributes that go into it, communicating well, patience, observational prowess, willingness to continue the learning process, admitting when you are wrong, and on and on. I do however think that given all things equal, I would want the person that had the athletic background. You can teach a lot of things, but some things are best learned by personal expirence.......

I was going to PM you with a response to this but noticed you did not allow the receipt of PM's under your username.

I read your thread with interest. Well said. I agree with you on this.

What is your read on the influx of people calling themselves coaches, particularly in the U.S.?

While you include some of this information in your original thread, what qualifications do you think a coach needs to be qualified and competent?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Having read this whole thread with interest, I think that ST misses a point that seems to be overlooked a lot on this forum. "Everyone is Unique" while I tend to agree with Paulo that most really competitive athletes make poor coaches in any sport (Martial Arts is a great example) There is always an exception. From what I understand Gordo is both a great athlete and a fine coach. But it has more to do with the type of person he is overall than anything else. He is also a good business man, if my recollection of his bio is correct. He is one of those individuals who is good at what they are doing or he doesn't bother to do it.

Some people make great athletes, some people make great coaches, a few have the ability to do both. The really good ones know the difference. The ones that don't know the difference are the really bad coaches. In my experience in teaching Martial Arts it soon became apparent to me that I would be a rotten competitor. What a blow to my ego that was. I soon discovered I had a knack for teaching it, and while it wasn't the thrill competing would have been it was nice to take a group of student to a tournament and watch them clean up. I spent 8 years learning to be a good instructor, I could have spent 8 years learning to be a bad competitor, but I would probably have quit the sport in dispair before then.

The most important thing I learned in teaching was to treat the students/athletes as individual and tailor what i taught and how I taught to the individual. Everbody is Unique, I used to teach everything three different ways, because people have different ways of absorbing data and often time will not get it the first time, but if you change the message it makes sense.

So while it is unfair to say that all great athletes make lousy coaches, it might do you good to consider how much time this great athlete has spent learning to coach and how much time he spent learning to be a great athlete. Going back to Gordo, he spent time learning why things worked while becoming a great athlete and I think that is the difference.

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

I definitely see swimfan's influence in your post. But, as usual, I LOVE your posts.

PS-No, I'm not talking about him, I happen to like him. So stop being defensive ;-)

Dear Sir,

Congratulations, you have invested several paragraphs in defense of your ego and identity as a coach who was not a great athlete.

Because there are anecdotal examples of coaches who are successful despite not having been great athletes, you have created agreement on our little forum which, I hope, will temporarily help you self-soothe the deep lingering self-doubt you possess when in the presence of other coaches who are/were great athletes.

Sir, I recommend you end the self doubt, you take your new found sense of security and become a "guidance counselor" of goodness and positive reinforcement to those you previously disparaged, held in contempt, or treated with indifference.

You sir are evolving! Keep it subtle and we won't question why. :)

Odd for me to come to the defense of one of Paulo's arguments as he neither needs help defending his perspective nor woud he do the same on my regard, but I'm missing the purpose of your comments.

I agree that being a good athlete does not pre-dispose a person to being a good coach.

What I would like to know is, what makes a good coach? What qualifications and personal qualities go into making someone a credible coach?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Monty,

I think you made a good summary of the history of triathlon coaching in the US and the people involved. Even though I can think of some names, they are definitely different from the names you will think off, and other people will think of other names. Julian thinks I meant Mark Allen, Cathy thinks I meant Molina and you mentioned Dave Scott is doing ok. I wouldn't even DARE to criticize those three, out of respect for all they've done for the sport.

This discussion is not meant to be bashing the great athletes that are indeed great coaches, because there are cases of that in every sport. I thought I would express my opinion in a topic that is dear to me, triathlon coaching. I would like to end by saying that this is not about me. I'm not in the run for being a "great coach" for several reasons, the biggest one that I only have 8 years of experience and only coached around 60 athletes in my short career. I am often envious of those that have been around for longer and that know so much more just because they've been around for longer... and knew what to do with all that information.

Great discussion. Great athletes certainly do not automatically make great coaches; however, there are many who have been - and are - successful, and they do exactly what you warn against: they essentially transcend what worked for them to their athletes, with a nice touch of fine tuning. Siri Lindley is the best example of this (as well as other disciples of Brett Sutton). She absolutely coaches her athletes in her mold and with her distinct training techniques and workouts ... and has had terrific success with many (most notably, Lauren Groves this year - 4th at ITU World Champs); however, those who do not fit or adhere to her "mold" are not nearly as successful, and ultimately leave the fold. Lesson: find what works for you as an individual and with a coach that you fully and implicitly trust and respect.

I guess the corollary to this would be the old saying "those who can, do....those who can't, teach..."

But the reality is looking at the big picture---what will work for a variety of athletes with their own idiosyncracies and limitations, both physiological and time-committment wise as opposed to what works, or worked, for them as an athlete.

Very good thoughts.

And yes, I love your posts too.

;-)

thanks for the great topic
we live in a small town
with a very small school
K through 12 in one building
graduating classes avg. 23
Class D school
just finding a coach is very difficult.
and like said before some parant take a class and like magic the become a coach
just cause they played some sport they think they know how to get the best out of a team
this year the JV soccer coach never even played soccer or knew the rules.
"the boys know how to play the game "
"Just let them play"
How can anyone think they can play at a winning leval with out a real coach.

My hat is off to coaches that change the outcome of a sport by increasing the fitness, awareness,tactics employed by atheteles


Dirt

Paulo,

Coaches such as those you've mentioned often are discussed as great coaches primarily because of their athletic success, rather than success they've had coaching. People generally avoid looking critically at them as coaches due to that success. Inevitably the ad hominem attacks start as soon as anyone questions what they have to say. Looking at their track record as coaches and the success they've had with other athletes means much more than any personal success they had, even if they were champions.

I'm not saying they are not great coaches, but in the context of this discussion, no great athlete should be assumed to be a great coach, but they often are.

Joel

What about athletes who coach, but apply the lessons they learn from coaches, rather than their own specific training?

I think the real distinction is between coaches who coach like a coach and those who coach like an athlete. Interestingly, I've had coaches who were great athlete, but who coached like a coach, and coaches who were terrible athletes that coached like an athlete.

Personally, I think you're making some blanket statements here that are not neccessarily true.

I do definitely agree with Joel that the great athletes tend to be judged overall by their athletic accomplishments, and people do assume that they are great athletes a result.

I don't think you can overlook the mentors role in forming a coach. An athlete who was self-coached, IMO, will always be a worse coach than an athlete with a proper mentor who eventually becomes a coach. The ability to learn from those around you (and that includes learning from research, etc.), rather than learning just from yourself (i.e. how training and certain methodologies affect YOU personally) would seem to me to be the major factor in determining how good a coach someone will be.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You make an excellent point supporting what I have said.

Knowing you well, I realize that throughout your post you're making a case for yourself as a coach. But that's OK, sometimes the posts we write say more about ourselves than the subject discussed.

Of course that doesn't mean that I don't LOVE your posts!

Ironically, I rarely, if ever, call myself a coach. I usually say that I "coach a couple people." In a lot of ways, I don't think of myself as being a coach, given the sort of influence and respect that I think a *real* coach deserves. I haven't been doing it long enough to feel that I'm there.

Of course, I would like to feel good about the coaching that I do, so I am sure that colored the wording of what I wrote. But I'd say that you and Joel are "coaches," whereas I'm more of a coach-in-training or something like that. Maybe someday I'll have my own offices in both a Quiznos and a Swiss Chalet and a Milagro's. But until then, I'll just be happy with what I've got...

I think we need better demarcations, like in the church. Then I can be like a priest-level-coach, you and Joel can both be cardinal-level-coaches, and, of course, Chris Carmichael can be the the pope-level-coach. ;) Oh yeah, and then Dev Paul can be the fringe-separatist-messiah-level-coach! :P Then of course, there will be a great schism, and we will have the Coaches of England and the Coaches of Rome, and there will be many wars fought, and... Oh, I think I'm taking this too far...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I just weeded through this entire thread, and I think Rappstar is entirely correct. I was hoping no one brought up the points that I wanted to make, but Rappstar beat me to it.

Anyways, while I've never had a tri coach, I've certainly had many coaches throughout my adolescent years. I was a pretty successful hockey player who got to travel far and wide as a kid, and had several coaches who were both incredibly successful in their playing careers and others who were solely coaches. I certainly think that one can toe the line and be both.

The distinction that Rappstar makes is a very important one - a successful athlete/coach needs to fully understand the dichotomy between the two positions. All athletes are different, and a good coach realizes this. A coach who is blinded by his own athletic pursuits. Personally, I wouldn't understand how to do this if I were a tri coach, but I could handle the hockey aspect. There are people who are commonly referred to as "students of the game" who understand that the game is a sum of all the moving parts. I think this is what makes a good coach, whereas the good/great athlete would only understand specific parts of the whole.

In an age of specialization, I think it's becoming increasingly rare that an athlete can be successful as the athlete and then successful as the coach. We seem to have evolved to a point where an athlete is particularly good at one thing - be it a specific position in a team sport, or a certain discipline in triathlon - and then seek to be somewhat adequate in the other parts of the game. That being said, I think athletes tend to become experts of sorts in one particular area. The great athlete and coach sees the other elements of the game or sport and understands them as well as their own little position.

Paulo, if I could, I would like to take your statement and revise it slightly.

Great athletes can make great coaches, but it is far more likely that a great coach was a good athlete but a "student of the game," to continue my analogy.


Rick

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Existence precedes Essence.

There'll also be a Crusade, where all of you coaches and the rest of us wannabes (who follow the those higher in the hierarchy like lemmings) wage a war against, say, basketball coaches or something.

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Existence precedes Essence.

Paulo, according to your website ....

Paulo Sousa, PhD, is one of Europe’s most knowledgeable and experienced multi-sport coaches. He has been involved in athletics since 1994 as a triathlete and coach, combining professional certification and education with international coaching experience to provide a first-class training program.

.... does the fact that you have been involved as a "triathlete and coach" mean that you've lost all credibility as a coach :)

No, never having won Hawaii takes care of that.

I am and always will be a recreational athlete and the parents I chose are to blame for that.

Damn parents :)

If you go by the never having won Hawaii specification, then there aren't too many athlete/coaches that you can discredit.

Something must have been lost in the translation, I am not out to discredit anyone.

>>Cathy thinks I meant Molina<<

Acutally, no I didn't. And besides, I think the three you mentioned could probably handle your criticism. ;-)

It's the absoluteness of your inital statements. You have since tempered it with this:

>>This discussion is not meant to be bashing the great athletes that are indeed great coaches, because there are cases of that in every sport. <<

It was that whole black/white thing. Life is more grey.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

This is a good thread.

Can't help but agree with Paulo ... Monty makes a good point too. The discussions remind me of some of my college professors. Some were brilliant and knew their subject extremely well. Some maybe knew their subject too well: They were simply not able to articulate and summarize. Simply put, they wre bad teachers and they lost more students than they taught. Students inevitabally fell into two camps: They idolized the professor (for their knowledge and achievements) or disliked him. One example was a guy I never had but one of the very few journalists to win a Pulitzer in two separate categories: Most students said he was a sucky prof.

I am wrapping up my first season as a high school cross country coach. I must say I am learning much more from the other coaches (and colleague who coach other sports) and from other teachers and from the kids themselves than I ever could from my 10 years of running and 4 years in tri's. It is a huge mistake to try to apply too much of your own experience to others.

But, I believe my own experiences, just going from a 40+ 10K runner to a 36- 10K runner over a few years add a bit to my perspective. The deal is to not let it influence or drive my perspective. The whole tri. thing can't be applied much to them at all: 15-year-olds with a goal to run 3 miles in 17 minutes don't have the attention span/patience and just won't benefit from workouts geared toward races that take hours. At least I realized that very soon.

Coaching and teaching are maybe ever more about communication, personality and psychology than actual knowledge.

Okay, I've been following this thread since I have an internet coach (hi martyg). Should I fire him because he and his wife are really good and then look for a MOP coach? I honestly don't think you mean this, but I'm honestly unclear about your message. Could just be me.

Yes, there are good and bad coaches. I just wouldn't categorize them by their own success in triathlon. I don't think a love and study of the sport comes more easily to those who never succeed (and they get to define success, not me). I'd venture to say that some successful triathletes have become successful because they spent a lot of time studying the sport.

If you're saying that a winning triathlete who starts coaching with the plan to send every athlete the plan he/she is personally following, then I'd agree that this is bad and doing a disservice to the client. I'd bet that coaching is a bell-curve.

Tom Demerly has a good point; how to identify those coaches at the right end of the bell curve. Hell if I know. Absent any real reward/consequences for doing well/poorly, I'd just ask if you're having fun, not getting injured, and improving year to year (relative to your age). Sounds like a win to me.

Case in point, no you shouldn't fire Marty :-) I have heard great things about him actually.

But I'm sure he would be the first to admit that he is not a great athlete. He's a pretty good age-group athlete, well above average (and well above me :-).

NYC? :-) Which one???

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----------

“You can't coach desire.” --Dathan Ritzenhein
http://xtreme4.com/ -- an extreme ride for extreme change: go green

Heh, Paulo, I think Marty would admit that after his Oktoberfest adventure, he now has breasts larger than me! BTW, this would take a gain of 2 or so pounds. ;-)

And to clarify my thoughts about you, I love Portugal. I've even been to the Azores (Terciera)...great bread. I just want to understand your posts. I know you're a great coach and I know you have a lot to add to any discussion, I just don't understand some of them [insert blonde joke here].

I'm keeping Marty and moving on. Hope our paths cross at some time.

here is where you have painted yourself into a corner: the word, "all".

the statement you make above is patently false.

yes, some coaches that were competitive athletes are indeed quite poor. but some are great.

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Where would you want to swim ?

[reply]No, never having won Hawaii takes care of that.

I am and always will be a recreational athlete and the parents I chose are to blame for that.[/reply]


Best. Line. Evar.

My genetic mediocrity puts me in the same spot. I hope one day to break away from my desk job and use triathlon/cycling as a way to put food on my table.

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Mike R

Software Engineer and Mac geek
Aspiring to be front-middle-of-the-pack in 2010.

Paulo, nice thread, and many good insights. While I have no tri coach (I grew through tri in the age of Monty when everyone was experimenting and was self coached), I have found that my "best athletes turned coaches" in track, cross country, soccer, hockey, tennis, baseball, cricket, field hockey, and XC skiing were usually the guys who were not the best but were had to work like maniacs at the technical aspect of their game to be on the same playing field as the very best. Because they picked the "wrong parents", they had to make up for this deficiency by becoming a student of their game, and learning every little trick in the technique and tactics playbook. These seem to be the guys with a bit of an analytical mind who can then communicate it back to the athlete in a way that the truly elite may not simply because the real elite guy never had to figure it out and therefore has difficulty explaining it.

With respect to picking a coach, though, I'll want to pick a coach that has been on the same battlefield that I am heading to. Just like I won't follow a colonel into battle that does not have experience, I'm not keen to follow someone who has not experienced what he is about to impart without having done it himself. This really applies to technical sports like swimming, XC skiing, baseball, tennis or soccer, more so than triathlon. I want someone who has played the game and can tell me what I should feel in my bones when my body is oriented in a certain position and ball or trail come flying at me at 70 kph and I suddenly have to change directions. Moreover, I want someone who can share the psychology of race day execution in the field of battle (a directeur sportif type of guy...). Someone who can tell me how the head reacts when the body is falling apart, and how to right the body when it is veering away from the intended goal. While having a long coaching track record is valuable, that coupled with the real world experience of having been in the trenches really makes an awesome combination. So do you need to have been a triathlete to coach triathlon? YES. Did you need to be elite? NO

Being or having been an elite athlete is not necessary to coach the bulk of age groupers or tier 2 pros. But if you are going to contend for the Stanley Cup, the Olympic Gold Medal, or a world championship, its nice if your coach has already done it himself, or if you coach has coached others that have done it. Then you know that they can impart the nuances of the process of getting there...and often its those small details that the guys with the experience have that can elevate someone to the next level of success:-)

Paulo,

You obviously are incorrect in some areas, and others have already pointed that out.

You are also partially correct. But I'm not sure you are for the right reason (or at least I didn't read your wording carefully enough). Great athletes *generally* don't make great coaches because everything works for the genetically gifted. Thus, they *generally* mistakenly assume that the same protocols work for everyone. There are examples of this in all sports.

For that reason, I take the training advice of the champions with a grain of salt, and pay much closer attention to those who have broader experience and considered alternative viewpoints (and understand how one could defend those alternatives).

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

What this thread needed was your asterisks, that made the discussion a lot more clear. Thank you for your *insight*.


Edit: ;-)

Aztec, you are wise (please attach to your signature henceforth).

I am now convinced however that we should not limit ourselves to examining only two types of coaches. Here, I think we should be inclusive of a third category of coaches...."those who read slowtwitch and profess knowledge of the sport and specifically knowledge of proper bike position."



P

"As a coach, it is very easy to spot these athletes/coaches because they say they are coaches, but talk like athletes."

"All the truly great coaches throughout the years were not and are not competitive athletes."

so, nut up and tell us, who are the bad and truly great coaches? otherwise, more spurious bs.

P-

While there are certainly many coaches who are/were athletes who trade on that personal knowledge base and success as the foundation of their coaching, and thus are not nearly as good at coaching as they were as athletes, it's not an absolute.

Likewise, not being a great athlete in X sport doesn't mean that one will be a good coach at it. (even tho they are not 'corrupted' by their own success and therefore trying to get everyone to do things like they did it, cuz it worked for me)

So, just curious - do we collectively think Gordo is a good coach? (OK, so he's never won Kona, but most would concur that he's a top tier Pro athlete) How about Mark Allen? Are they the exceptions that prove the rule, or are they the poster boys for what you are trying to say? My perception would be the former (at least for Gordo, I really don't know much about how/what Mark Allen does in terms of coaching, although I can certainly easily speculate based on his past writings). When Mark Allen Online boasts about having X # of athletes q for Kona, is that a reflection on his coaching, or that there are just a gazillion clients and by default a certain percentage qualified, or that athletes of a certain caliber and willingness to train via the more is MORE massive volume approach that MA is known for are drawn to him, and those folks tend to then perform well?

There are examples in all sports of everything from total couch potatoes who are among the best-ever coaches, to decent athletes who then become coaches , to a small handful of elites who also then became great coaches. I agree with you that the latter is a rarity, but it's not like it never happens.

Probably the best-known cases of "decent athlete, GREAT coach" are Pat Riley and Phil Jackson in the NBA. Both had serviceable pro careers, neither was a star athlete even on their own team, much less in the overall league, yet both have gone on to be at the top of the pro coaching pantheon. By definition, anybody good enuff to make it into the NBA as a pro is obviously a very talented athlete, so how does this tie in to your original assertion?

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float , hammer , and jog

Why is it always about Gordo, why does his name always come up? And how many top tier pros there are?

Paulo, you're right. In virtually every sport the best coaches were guys that did make it to a reasonably high level, but were not superstars.

The reason for this is simple ... they had to do "everything right" to get where they did. Their ability was less than others, so they could make fewer mistakes. So, they know how to get the most out of their potential. Furthermore, the best coaches know how to teach and how to get others to maximize their potential, but are still able to relate to an athlete in a high level position (the latter is why I don't recommend getting a coach that DID NOT do something a reasonably high level. They can help you "start out", but that's it).

It is very difficult for superstars to coach. First, they've never been mediocre/average (they've always been the most talented player in the field) and cannot relate to that situation. Secondly, they've never really had to improve, so they don't know how to teach someone to get better. Now, some of the techniques used by the superstar may be effective to some degree, but anything is effective to some degree.

Seriously, list the greatest coaches of each sport, and it's usually the same description ... guy with limited ability that maximized every advantage from practice strategy, to game preparation, to knowing the game, to improving what they could, etc. They can both relate to high level situations and teach others how to max their potential.

To be honest the coaches that bother me are the "stable owners". They don't talk about how much progress their athletes make, or how effective their strategies are, they talk about "who" they coach. They are primarily name droppers, secondary coaches. They specialize in coaching athletes that don't really need coaches.

I see quite a few of these and know a couple. What they offer is more along the lines of fast talk and programs from books, instead of progress from experience. There also seem to be A LOT of guys that make a pretty good living by just parroting what the big name coach says in their latest book/website ... even guys that have never "done" what they are coaching. I'm not going to start listing (non-triathlon) names, because that's not my place, but I very easily could. I won't go so far as saying it's intentionally dishonest, but at least it's misrepresentation.

I'll be honest about coaching, most anyone can do the basics, X's and O's, the practices, the drills, it's all pretty much standard-issue. Where a coach comes in handy, and where coaches are most valuable is dealing with the emotional/mental side, dealing with adversity, and making changes on the fly. Anyone can coach when things are going "according to plan", a valuable coach becomes really benenficial when things start to slide or unanticipated things come up.

Too often I have seen teams/athletes be successful in spite of their coach, not because of their coach. Almost just as often I have seen coaches that have done outstanding jobs with their athletes/teams, but go unnnoticed because they eventually lose to a team/athlete that has double their talent.

Triathlon, like a lot of other sports, seems to feature quite a few coaches that seemingly just parrot the basic advice from the latest major book/clinic/seminar/etc. But, many people are far too willing to part with their money for whatever level of coachnig they can get.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Great athletes may become great coaches, but I think it's unlikely while thier athletic career is still going on. I think to be great at coaching it requires a narrow focus just like it requires to reach the top level of ones sport and theres just not room for one person to narrowly focus on both of these things at the same time.

I think the motivation to coach for a lot of current athletes is to either A. supplement their income or B. coach a buddy or 2 just for fun. Neither of these motivations are necesarily wrong, just not the motivation required to be a great coach

I tend to disagree about top tier elites just having the talent and not knowing how to develop someone. The top tier athletes are the ones with incredible talent who then, in addition, do all the little things that it takes to be great.

As far as "flavor of the month" coaches, there are a lot of those regardless of whether they are/were a great athlete. I think that's because it's easy, it's been said before here that most athletes and coaches are nearsighted and believe that the training we do in the few months preceding our event is what determines our success or failure. This makes the idea of trying the "flavor of the month" appealing because if one "flavor" doesn't work, hey, try another.

Great athletes may become great coaches

Honestly, in our major sports, where there's lots of coaches, I can't think of many great athletes that have been successful coaches. Coaching, for many of them that have tried, has been a downpoint of their career. The list of "great athletes that became great coaches" is very small, and may be limited to one or two guys.

Triathlon may be different.

I am not saying this in a rude manner, but when looking at the comment I quoted at the beginning, great athletes could become great coaches. I am primarily interested in whether they HAVE done so ... and in amounts that make it a compelling conversation. Theoretically, anyone could/may become a great coach.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Good thought-provoking post.

There has been a lot of talk on this thread mentioning team sport coaches as examples or counter-examples to Paolo's original hypothesis. I would posit that coaches in team sports (football, basketball, etc.) need to have a different skill set to succeed than coaches in individual sports like swimming, triathlon, running, & gymnastics. Skills such as group psychology, motivating a large group of athletes from a wide range of backgrounds to achieve a single goal, managing a large organization (like an NFL team), simply aren't relevant to single-sport coaching.

Therefore, those coaches aren't as relevant to the subject at hand, which I would assume is triathlon coaching (or were you speaking generally, paulo?).

To Paolo's point, I would tend to agree with his primary point, which I take to be that great athletes are not necessarily great coaches. Since I've made my living in the sales/marketing business...I think of it as being similar to the concept that great sales people are not always great sales managers or business leaders. Sure, occasionally, you will get lucky and find one who is both....but the skills sets are different. The same with athletic success and coaching success. Each has its own set of skills that are required.

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

Nice post. Without getting bogged down with semantics, I'm taking away the ideas you layed down and will make it a part of my thought process before dishing out advice. It's important for me to know not just what "seemed to work for me in the past," or "what *I'd* like to try tomorrow, " but rather, "what's likely best for the athlete I'm coaching."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

<< When Mark Allen Online boasts about having X # of athletes q for Kona, is that a reflection on his coaching,

do you really think that Mark Allen is coaching all of those people? Better yet, do you think he is coaching any of them? If you do, there are a couple of South African entrepreneurs that you need to be introduced to.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Wait, first I want to sell him some seaside property right here in the city where I live in :-D

I think your post is pretty meaningless until you define what a successful coach is. That's a pretty subjective term. Can you give us your definition ?

Greg.

How do you define success in sports?

hahahahaa

I'm sorry. Was my question was too difficult for you, or is there a certain etiquette one must adhere to, in order to get a reasonable response from you?

Greg.

It seems you're taking lessons in manners with your friend Julian. Good night.

It was only a matter of time before your Gordo complex reared its head on this thread. Why don't you just come out and say it?

Are these the ad hominem attacks that czone was talking about?

This thread is not about me. It's not about Gordo either, even though some people want it to be about Gordo. That is very interesting in itself.

There is no correlation (positive or negative) between a person's athletic level and achievements (current and past) and their competency as a coach.

What are the attributes of an effective coach? What are the particular personality traits, knowledge, attitude, or skills that determine success?

Your arguments are indeed meaningless. However, your unsupported arguments are entraining and well written.

Greg,

Easily done.

A successful coach is one who fulfills his/her aims as regards coaching, whatever those aims may be.

An effective coach is something different. An effective coach does all that they can to help their athletes fufill their aims, whatever they may be, to the best of their ability.

Now, do you have a worthwhile point to make?

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

"An effective coach does all that they can to help their athletes fufill their aims"

No it is not. That is a dedicated coach.

Effectiveness is the extent in which goals are met. Or in more clear terms - The ability to achieve stated goals or objectives, judged in terms of both output and impact.

Efficiency it is also important. Could the coach allow an athlete to achieve the same level using more efficient methods?

However, the underling issue is the lack of studies to support the arguments that Paulo is proposing.

And how do you methodologically control the impact of the coach on performance? For example, you cannot have a control group, the same person not being coached. How do you know if it is the coaching method or the coach? To what extent it is the coach and not the commitment of the athlete to be coached?

Gordo reminds me of Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion .

Whenever someone talks about triathlon swimming , Terry comes up as well?

I guess it has to do with writing books ? The difference is that Gordo knows what he's talking about, and TI is just voodoo...

You should write a book. It seems that triathlon training material is limited to old school stuff or the Friel/Gordo approach. From reading your posts , you seem to offer something new.

>Just like I won't follow a colonel into battle that
>does not have experience, I'm not keen to follow
>someone who has not experienced what he is about
>to impart without having done it himself. This really
>applies to technical sports like swimming, XC skiing,
>baseball, tennis or soccer, more so than triathlon.

Why can't we just examine the coach on an individual basis, instead of trying to use some absolutist rule like "great athletes make bad coaches" or "those with no experience can't coach"?


What about Mike Leach, the football coach at Texas Tech? He was a lawyer, don't think he ever played football.

"No it is not. That is a dedicated coach."
Semantics somewhat, but I'd suggest that a dedicated coach may do all they can for their athlete, but not necessarily get them anywhere. IMO effectiveness requires dedication, but dedication does not necessarily lead to effectiveness.

"Efficiency it is also important. Could the coach allow an athlete to achieve the same level using more efficient methods?"
Again, part of effectiveness in this discussion I feel.

"However, the underling issue is the lack of studies to support the arguments that Paulo is proposing."

Much as I love studies, not everything is about double-blind testing. Good athletes do not always make good coaches in the same way that academics do not always make good teachers.

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

Don't take it personal , there are some on this forum that just wait to jump on someone like a pack of wolves.

I've noticed certain things about them besides being a bunch of cowards. They suck as triathletes , they think of themselves as intellectual , and they will always " make it about you".

Gordo wrote a pretty good book and has a good website , being that you both coach elites I guess some assholes are going to try and create drama everytime you say his name.

Murphy'sLaw is a good guy though, and a good athlete. I think he just wanted to know what you thought of Gordo's methods ?

Fade,

Yes, I do have a point. Who is, or is not, a successful coach is really something that is for their athletes to decide. If the athlete being coached is happy with their relationship, I'd say the coach gets a passing grade. For someone not involved personally, like Paulo, to judge whether or not a coach should be deemed successful, you have to set some criteria to base your opinion on don't you think? So I'm asking, what are you basing your judgement on? How many athletes the coach has? How many of his athletes return? How much money he makes? How many of his athletes have won Ironman Hawaii? How popular he is on Slowtwitch?

I think it's a pretty simple question. Does it insult the intelligence of some to be asked such a simple question?

Greg.

Paulo,

I don't think you're really qualified to talk about manners.

I simply want to know what you think makes a successful coach. You started this topic so I assumed you wanted opinions from other people. What are you getting your back up for?

Greg.

my hats off to the parent who stepped up and took charge..

<<Much as I love studies, not everything is about double-blind testing>>

I agree, studies could only answer questions and address issues that are specific and well defined. Often they have no ecologic validity (that is measure what they are designed to predict in the real world). The subject matter is simple to conceptualise, but will not have clear cut answers any time soon.

Anyway, overall I agree with the distinctions that you are making, and I suppose it is semantics. We all agree.

For me, the fact that Paulo's athletes have impressive track record and are constantly progressing, and the fact that they stay with him long term shows that he is an effective coach.

There are many flavor of the day coaches, especially in triathlon or sports where the standards set by the governing body are so weak, the initial training course(s) so pathethic that any joe blow can pass and call themselves a coach. Swimming is another sport that comes to mind that also has many flavor of the day coaches. It is almost impossible to run a large swim team with just a head coach. You need several assistant coaches. Many of those assistants just finished thier swimming careers and while crappy to ok coaches now, may develop into a great coach later. Certifications can be gotten by any idiot.

Many athletes were successful in spite of what they did. There are many coaches who are good athletes, who are successful at some level in racing or sport, who are assumed to know what they are doing. There are some who actually do know what they are doing. Great athletes can make great coaches, just as mediocore athletes, poor athletes and non athletes can make great coaches. They can also make crappy coaches. No one thing makes a coach a good to great coach. There are several tools that a good to great coach should have in the toolbox.

Life experiences & athlete experiences - One is having the ability to take his/her experiences and have absorbed the lessons from those experiences while realizing those lessons are not all inclusive nor applicable to each athlete. Realize those lessons may only apply to 1% of the situations that your athletes may face. The coach should also take the experiences from the athletes he/she coaches and learn from those experiences.

Learning - Never underestimate the ability to learn. A coach will make a decent coach if she/he has asked and keeps asking the question why. If they asked when they were athletes they will have a better understandinng then the athlete that just followed blindly. They should still be asking now that they are a coach. Why this type of workout now, why not that type of workout? A great coach will take the answers and figure out how the answers apply to that specific situation and other situations both long and short term. A great coach should be able to answer the why for the when, how and what. A great coach who stops learning is no longer a great coach.

Personality - a great coach will have the ability to match his personality to the personality that the athlete needs for success. Some athletes need kid gloves, some need in your face attitude, some need to be told do X and don't think about it. Some need a mix of personality types. A great coach will almost intuitively know what the athlete needs and when. When the great coach gets it wrong he will learn from that situation.

Technical skills - A great coach will posses a good knowledge of technical skill(s) required by the sport(s) they are coaching. If that coach has a gap, a great coach is not afraid to refer an athlete to someone with better technical skills, nor is the great coach afraid to ask for help from a lessor known, lessor experineced coach who has better technical skills. The more a coach learns the better the coach can coach.

Academic background - a great coach has a degree in or has studied the physiology requirements of the sport(s) they are coaching. Not having an excellent background, be it from academia or from tons of reading, leaves a glaring weakness in the coaches foundation. They continue to read the literature that has been published to further increase their skill set. If you do not understand the basic science behind coaching then it will be hard to become a great coach.

Communicate - this goes along with personality but yet differs. A great coach can communicate with their athletes and other coaches.

Flexibility - A great coach needs to have the ability to kow when to change things and to know when not to change things. If plan A gets derailed for some reason, how to make plan B go towards the same goals.

Results - A great coach gets excellent results from a wide range of ability and athletes. There are coaches who are considered great b/c they have a great stable of athletes who have done great things but are not great coaches. There are coaches you have never heard of who are great coaches but don't have WC athletes. The results of one or two athletes do not make a coach great. Great results from a large scope of athletes make a coach great. Consistent improvement over long periods of time with the same athletes make a coach great. Any coach can improve an athlete for a year or two or make a young athlete faster. The great coaches can take an athlete and continue to improve them over a span of 3-7 years or take an older athlete and make them faster at a time when they really should be getting slower.

Depth and breadth - a great coach will have lots of experience from his many years spent coaching and racing if they raced. They will have acquired lots of knowledge and they will be able to apply that knowledge to each specific individual that they coach. They will have coached a sufficient number of athletes to have sharpened their technical skills, gained knowledge from their athletes experiences, learned from reading and talking with other coaches. The great coaches will be able to take that learning and apply it going forward, while picking up new knowledge and assimilating it with their previous knowledge. The best coaches will look at the new information, research, experiences, knowledge and skills and see how it fits into or challenges his/her paradigm of thinking. A great coach is not afraid to shift their paradigm of thinking. A great coach does not shift their paradigm of thinking every month either. N=1 or 10 does not lend itself to making someone a great coach.

Mentoring & Observation - A great coach will have most likely trained under or with other coaches at some point. The great coach will have absorbed what was going on in the surroundings and seperate what they saw did not work from what they noticed that did work. They will have asked why this did or did not work. They will have observed how the coaches they worked with, and themselves interacted and how the athletes reacted. Even today where there is much internet interaction and little face to face interaction, a great coach will be able to read through his emails and pick up on what the athlete is saying, not what has been typed. A coach who did not have this training can still be a great coach, it will just take longer since they did not have tha advantage of watching other screw up and learning from those mistakes.

Getting to know the athlete - Great coaches learn the person that the athlete is. What makes them tick, who they really are. A coach who does not care about you only cares about your $. The coach does not have to be your friend, but the great coach takes the time to learn about who you are.

Thinking - Great coaches are always thinking about how to improve their athletes and how they can improve themselves.

Failing - All coaches fail at some point with some athletes. A great coach learns from these failures and becomes a better coach due to this experience. A coach who never fails never truly coaches.

Coaching - A great coach can skillfully blend in the right amounts at the right time, the science of coaching with the art of coaching.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

No, it's not about you. Rather, it is about those you do not have respect for. It's clear you don't respect anyone in the Gordo camp. Like I said, eventually you would make it known on this thread. Either directly or implied.

This is not an ad hominem attacked. This is an observation. If you want to get defensive about it, that is your decision.

Learning - Never underestimate the ability to learn. A coach will make a decent coach if she/he has asked and keeps asking the question why. If they asked when they were athletes they will have a better understandinng then the athlete that just followed blindly. They should still be asking now that they are a coach. Why this type of workout now, why not that type of workout? A great coach will take the answers and figure out how the answers apply to that specific situation and other situations both long and short term. A great coach should be able to answer the why for the when, how and what. A great coach who stops learning is no longer a great coach.

Brian,

Great post (seriously).

I understand that coaches will have different insights and different preferences, and I also understand there are a lot of ways to get to the same destination (I encourage this). A lot of athletes will require different roads to the same place.

The one thing that truly bothers me about certain coaches are guys that do not speak from the "What I have found is ..." perspective, but simply parrot what was said at a clinic, course, book, etc. "So-n-So says ...". They simply lack the knowledge/experience to evaluate a strategy, and just do it because someone else does ... furthermore they apply it to EVERYONE they coach, coimpletely ignoring individual differences among athletes.

There are coaches you have never heard of who are great coaches but don't have WC athletes.

I know we don't have data and/or studies (and likely can'y have given the array of attributes we're talking about), but what I've seen from 25 years in playing/coaching sports, I'd guess that MOST of the outstanding coaching performances go without notice, because they "don't win it all". I don't know that the flipside (bad coach, lots of talented athletes) is as true as often, but I've seen that happen.

---------------------------

The same things that make a great coach, make a great teacher. I've often referred to coaching as "intimate teaching" because that's what it is. The effectiveness should be assessed by how much the athlete improves and/or how much out of their ability the athlete gets. It almost always has the be viewed on an individual case-by-case basis because, as you said, even the best coach is going to fail with an individual at some point.

Too often the coach/teacher is labelled great because they have great athletes/students, and far too often outstanding coaches/teachers go unnnoticed because they simply coach/teach athletes/students with much less initial talent, overall potential, and/or outside support.

With the whole certification thing ... this is not unique to triathlon. The demand for coaches is greater than the supply. So, mass certification methods are designed for the purpose of getting as many "trained" coaches out ther as possible. People will pay, often times good money, for a coach without knowing if the coach has been effective or not.

The tpic is very interesting to me, and I do point out I am not speaking from triathlon experience, but quality individual teaching/coaching is quality individual teaching/coaching. The attributes are the same, the content is different.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Brian,

Great post, really awesome.

I particularly liked this definition:

"Great results from a large scope of athletes make a coach great."

It's interesting and at the same time amusing that people involved in sports have a difficulty with identifying what success in sports, like it was some kind of mutating or ethereal definition.

Just in case you don't know what ad hominem is, because you're doing it again, here's a definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I am through replying to your posts. Good day.

Despite all of your success, You are very sensitive to perceived critisism. Why is that?

I'm not attacking you. I'm just making it an observation. You believe it is an ad hominem attack because you are veiwing it through your personal defensive lense.

DD,

Very thorough and well articulated response. I particularly like the part about taking an athlete and seeing improvement over 3-7 years or prolonging an older athlete's career. A good coach can cause a young athlete to improve but a GREAT coach will take an experienced athlete to the next level.

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Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges

Some coaches are really good at initial/beginning athletes, but poor with advanced athletes. Others are really good with advanced athletes, but horrible with initial/beginning athletes.

I don't think the same coach/teacher should necessarily be expected to take an athlete from initial to advanced status. That's asking A LOT out of one coach/teacher.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Yeah TT, that's what the world great means... for the other situations there's "pretty good", "good", "mediocre" and "not so good".

Some coaches have that ability, hence the reason why they would be great. On the flip side, there is a coaching group out here in Phoenix that does a great job with first timers but are not very good at developing athletes beyond the initial newbie stage.

Part of being a great coach would be knowing your strength(s) and weakness(es) then figuring out if you want to stick with only your strength(s) or if you want to expand your knowledge base. If a coach is fine with not being able to develop someone beyond the initial stages then they should focus on doing the best job possible with the population they choose to coach.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Some coaches have that ability, hence the reason why they would be great.

I agree, and hope my comments did not suggest otherwise.

When you list all the attributes that a great coach, teacher, doctor, lawyer, principal, parent, pastor, etc would need to have ... it's amazing that anyone ever actually meets the "requirements".

Even in "great" coaches, there are very few, if any, that are great in all regards. Most great coaches simply do a "few things very well", and these few things usually are in the areas of "people skills, motivation, encouragement, and planning". In short great coaches (and teachers, etc) possess the skills you can't teach, and are willing to learn what they can.

One of the best books I've ever read is "Wooden on Leadership". His principles are so simple and straight-forward and the language is so "everyday", that I would imagine many folks would read the book and think "There's no way that can work. It's too easy".

Anyway, I am enjoying the insights of others regarding something I deal with on a daily basis (coaching, in another regard).

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Who has Gordo actually coached?????

As desert dude said:

"A great coach gets excellent results from a wide range of ability and athletes"

key word: RESULTS

Re: Flavor of the day coaching [TripleThreat] [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply

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In Reply To:

Some coaches are really good at initial/beginning athletes, but poor with advanced athletes. Others are really good with advanced athletes, but horrible with initial/beginning athletes.

I don't think the same coach/teacher should necessarily be expected to take an athlete from initial to advanced status. That's asking A LOT out of one coach/teacher.

I agree with every one of those words TT. Then it is pretty hard to say good bye, to that first coach. But sometimes you have to.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

"Gordo wrote a pretty good book and has a good website , being that you both coach elites,"

BUT WHO DOES HE ACTUALLY COACH? HUH? You have to coach people to be a coach right?

Anyone can write a book and put up a website.....

If your first coach can't take you to the top... why not find one that will?

If you write a very succesful book on coaching Ironman athletes, and that's what Gordo did , and your website is full of coaching advice and material I guess that makes him a coach. You know , if it looks like a duck , it is....

If you want to get technical , he coached a club mate of mine at Epic Camp , who by the way races Elite at the Ironman distance.

[reply][reply]
So, just curious - do we collectively think Gordo is a good coach? (OK, so he's never won Kona, but most would concur that he's a top tier Pro athlete) [/reply]
Why is it always about Gordo, why does his name always come up? And how many top tier pros there are?[/reply]

Yes, why is it everyone is a "top tier" pro? We all know that getting a pro card is not like making it through the PGA Q-school or making it out of AAA baseball. Just being a pro-triathlete; unlike, say, just being in the NBA; carries little to no meaning. The worst guy in the NFL/MLB/NBA was among the best players on his college team. He is, if you calculate the odds out, something like one in ten thousand or so. Maybe even more elite.

To be a top tier pro, IMO (and I think you share the same opinion, Paulo) you must have won a race at the distance you specialize in. If you are an IM pro, then you must have won a MDot or similar level IM (such as Roth). If you race 1/2, then you must win one of the big 1/2's (Wildflower, St. Croix, Florida, Vineman, etc.), if you race Oly, then you must have either won a World Cup or a major non-drafting Oly (such as LA, Chicago, NYC, Lifetime, etc.).

A top tier pro means that you have, on at least one occassion, been able to beat some of the best in the world at the distance you choose to specialize in.

As a side note, I am pretty sure Gordo considers himself a coach, because when you go to his website (gordoworld.com), there is a link that says "Coach Gordo." Doesn't seem to be too much trickery going on there...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

[reply]I totally agree.

Look at Bela Karolyi .

Bela can't do a cartwheel if his life depended on it.

Bela is the coach of the women's gymnastic greats like Nadia Comaneci and Keri Strug the girl who landed on one foot and won the US gold in 1996.[/reply]

Great example!

BTW, the Johan Bruyneel example was awful (although he is a master tactitian/dir sportif and very dedicated)

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Coach: someone in charge of training an athlete or a team

Writing a book and doing a website make him in charge of noone.

Now.. your buddy just attended Epic Camp and listened to advice, or is he actually coached on an ongoing basis?

Synch,

Want me to change the title of the thread to "The Gordo Thread"? Because I can do it if you want... ;-)

Desertdude, very nice post, you made many excellent points, however, the only area where I have a different view is that a great coach has to be able to take someone over a span of many years. I kinda see it like being a CEO. Some CEOs specialize in startups, some at taking companies to IPO, or even a Series B or C. Some can take a company from IPO to $100M in revenue, and then you have others that can effectively run a multi billion dollar transnational company. All can be great in their area of specialty. Certainly there can be coaches that are great with newbies, and also coaches that can be great getting ITU also rans to the World Championship podiums, while others can be great getting also rans to Kona age group qualifier. I think really its not up to coaches to define what makes a coach great or successful. Like in any service business, it is up to the customers to decide. :-).

Clearly, many coaches will specialize in certain areas, just like there are doctors that are GP's vs those that are neurosurgeons. They can all be great in their own way.

Dev

Talking to some other friends who participated in EpicCamp, there is coaching going on. Maybe Gordo does not end up coaching some of these guys over the long term, but over the short term, there is coaching. No different than going to a Scotty Bowman hockey camp for 2 weeks, so that you can be trained by some of the best in the business.

Dev,

I make both cases. The long term 3-7 yr case in my OP on this thread and in my second post I make a case for coaches that are only capable of doing one thing. In the first case the coach can develop a beginner through their triathlon lifecycle or take someone who is on the back side of their career and cause them to move up a notch.

In the second case if the coach or in the example I provided, the coaching group, is great at developing beginners. They should focus on what they do best realizing their limitations. They can be the springboard that new athletes use to extend their triathlon fun or take the next step.

IMO, this is where many former great athletes end up starting their coaching careers (and for their athletes sake hopefully progress), I can think of one former top ranked ITU athlete who has taken (or copied) what they learned from their former coach and are regeritating it to the athletes they coach. These former athletes know one maybe two methods of coaching (mostly what their coaches did to them) and unfortunately more athletes will never realize their potential then will in this type of one or two sizes fits all coaching methodolgy.

BTW there is a link to a 20-25min video to your race on the F1 track. If you want to see it, PM me I can dig it up.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Let's stay away from single examples of coaches that are successful coaching something they've never done, unless we can compile a rather substancial list, which would be interesting. Can we name 5 highly successful gymastics coaches that have never done gymnastics? Or just that one?. I ask because the "refute a mountain of observation with a single example" is a Lavender Room strategy that I'd prefer stay over there. We can certainly bring up Ted Williams as a counter example. It would be interesting to see statistical trends about successful coaches and their backgrounds.

Talking about the 1% is not very relevant to the whole (regardless of what topic we are talking about). Exceptions to the norm are just that ... they don't become the new norm. I'm not sure how much more can be said on this aspect without further data.

One thing I do notice in various sports, is that some folks (I have no idea what %) seem to take as much (if not more) pride in WHO their coach is versus HOW their coach is.

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=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Desertdude, yup, some guys just don't realize the niche that they are great at. At this point they go from potentially great to mediocre. Like the case of the GP and neurosurgeon, I like dealing with medical professionals who have an excellent "network" of peers who they can refer me to when they reach their limitations. I think tri coaching is no different. For example, someone could be an excellent overall tri coach and refer his athletes, who are pushing the edge of the coaches capabilities in imparting technical swimming to a pure swim coach who can raise the bar technically for the triathlon coach's athletes!

I think that says it all. How many people can be great at everything. I think the great coaches are good at most things but they know their limitations. If they don't have the answers they find someone who does instead of making something up. There are a lot of things that go into tri training and coaching and it would be rare for someone to excel in everything. It would be much easier to do what you do well and seek help in the things that you don't do well.

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~~~ ><)))))))))))))))))))))))*> ~~~~~ ><}}}}> ~~~~~~
Marc

http://www.triformore.com

Nice post Brian. The main metric to me regarding success in coaching is simple: results. Coaches, just like athletes, can only truly be measured by results. Of course there are many skills and attributes that lead to getting results as a coach, but when I think of coaches I consider great, I think of the ones who consistently get world class results with their athletes, and who are able to do so again and again over time, with different types of athletes, even in different disciplines of the sport.

One other factor you forgot, which is key, is anyone who has coached forum legend jonnyo, or even better, had him live with them and is here to tell the tale, must be among the coaching greats! ;-)

What did I tell you about the duck thing ?

Look , if this is so important to you than go on the back face of Gordo's book , I quote " Gordo Byrn is an elite long distance triathlete and coach".

He is certified with USA Triathlon , Triathlon Australia , and the American Swim coaches association.

Now , who cares ? It's not about Paulo or Gordo .

I think it is on ultrasport.tv?

...oh and great posts DD.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Brian... Sergio will study in the States in 2008. Either in CA or AZ. It all depends if he will continue track racing or not (hurricanes don't count on this decision :) ). If it is AZ, I hope you can be his coach. Just do not take him rock climbing ;)

Best wishes,

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I evaluate coaches on their success with athletes. There are a couple of coaches here in Chicago that I noticed have had some significant improvements/success with their age group athletes. If I was ever to hire a coach it would probably be one of them. A coaches athletic accomplishments in any sport shouldnt be a deciding factor.

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-----------------------:)
SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
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Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

I don't give a shit who he's certified with. I know plenty of boneheads with certifications.

I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

Has he taken complete responsibility for an athlete for a season, or two, or three and produced results? As far as I can tell.. or anyone else can tell me... NO.

Knowledge and practice are two different things.

No, this thread is not about gordo, but his name keeps coming up as a "coach"... and I can't quite figure out what makes him a coach. But, you've clarified that for me.... Gordo is a duck, not a coach. ;-)

Brian,

Excellent post.

As for Gordo actually coaching athletes, of course he does. I can name several he has/is off the top of my head. Hell, just ask him :-)

--------------------------

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

I won't speak for Gordo or the athlete, but I personally know of at least one person who he coaches who won his age group at an IM. I believe at any one time Gordo will only coach 5-6 people.

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http://bigisland-will.blogspot.com/

[reply]I don't give a shit who he's certified with. I know plenty of boneheads with certifications.

I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

Has he taken complete responsibility for an athlete for a season, or two, or three and produced results? As far as I can tell.. or anyone else can tell me... NO.

Knowledge and practice are two different things.

No, this thread is not about gordo, but his name keeps coming up as a "coach"... and I can't quite figure out what makes him a coach. But, you've clarified that for me.... Gordo is a duck, not a coach. ;-)[/reply]

Greg, what is your problem????

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Problem solved Cathy. will has confirmed that Gordo does indeed coach someone....

Silly. Crazy. Gordo has coached successfully across the spectrum of athlete types; all ages and abilities. Pros and elite AGers. He has guided back of the pack to podium finishes at international IMs. There have been multiple podium finishes (Pro and AG) at international IMs in the past year alone. He has coached a masters athlete to multiple IM Hawaii podium finishes. Two of his full time athletes won IM age group championships this year. There are dozens of Kona qualifications that have come about under Gordo's coaching. There are numerous elites and Pros whose names others don't know because it is no body elses business. Don't confuse being humble or protecting privacy with doing nothing.

>I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

You are a VIKING! ***


















*** a viking with gordo issues.

Everyone keeps telling you Gordo's a coach , and I'm glad you finaly believe somebody , so maybe now we could move on....

Gordo a duck ? , no....



But we know what you are ....

This is a simple question I would ask before hiring a tri-coach: Based on my past performance, how much better can I do and why? And then, give me some examples.

The answer to this question is one reason I like race calculators. Based on my 5K time, I can predict my best marathon time even though I've never run one before. But if I do one, I know what is possible even if I fall short the first time around. I know that the fault lies in the training program and that I can improve by tweaking the program. The program inherently lies upon the coach and his/her refinement.

I agree that the best coaches are students of the sport and often those without the natural gift of speed. Bob Hannish here in Milwaukee is a wonderful coach and has a wonderful objective viewpoint. For example, at the local track workouts you don't see him out there ripping off 1:05 400's and you never would. He's there to coach you. He cares and he's got the knowledge.

I would love to make more blanket statements, but upon reflection there are too many exceptions to make them monographical.

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Matt Amman

I think hiring a coach is a really personal thing , and could go either way.

If I could afford to hire a coach , I would , and I would be torn with the descision of hiring a great mind like Paulo or a guy who walks the walk like Rappstar. That's a hard one , don't know what my flavor would be?

Either way I'm sure I'd be better off.

Actualy there is an Elite Ironman Athlete ( Terry Kerrigan ) in my club who has giving me a little more than advice , I'd say he's coached me. It's been succesful too , which is suprising since I place right behind him at club races , and it's pretty cut throat at our races. He's helped me shave more than a minute off my sprint time in only 4 weeks. I had confidence in following his program for 4 weeks and it worked. Still , I think this is rare and most of the best coaches are not competetive athletes .

In virtually every sport the best coaches were guys that did make it to a reasonably high level, but were not superstars.

Scotty Bowman of the NHL is a classic example and there are many in pro sports.

On the other side, Gretzky has been coaching in Phoenix and had mixed to poor results. Gretzky cannot get others to do what he did because much of what he did is something you can't teach. The same goes for Jordan, Tiger, Montana etc.

I can think of very few athletes who were at the top ranks of their sport and also had great coaching success.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

I think your post is pretty meaningless until you define what a successful coach is. That's a pretty subjective term.

I am not a coach, I am not a good athlete and I do not have a Phd so maybe I don't know anything about coaching but in terms of triathlon, a successful coach is someone who has winning athletes.

As much as we like to flower things and say things like a successful coach has "happy" athletes who "achieve all their goals and have a balance in their lives", for the most part, the ones who produce athletes that win, are the ones in demand.

That's why the top athletes can generate a lot of clients without having any coaching ability, people want him/her to get them to their level.

Paolo and others who have not won Hawaii or other major races have to coach based on gaining knowledge and that is why I agree with his post. Top athletes rely on what they did, which works for them, but coaches without that personal experience, have to rely on what works for you, the athlete and that is much more challenging.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Hey KKL, best of luck working with Marty. I worked with Marty for a few years, bumbling from a total beginner to a decent IM finisher. Marty is not what Paulo would call a "great" triathlete - though outstanding in my view - and probably not a "great" coach by his standard either, but I think he is truly a gifted coach notwithstanding his athletic prowess. I have learned from his failures as much as his successes. I appreciate his shortcomings in some key races as both of us learned from them. At the end of the day, he imparted some good knowledge to me, buttressed by great emotional support and a positive attitude. Is that enough to create greatness? Who knows. But for the rest of us recreational athletes, it was great stuff indeed.

<< I can think of very few athletes who were at the top ranks of their sport and also had great coaching success >>

{almost choking on my sausage, kielbasa, and brats}

DITKA

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float , hammer , and jog

DITKA

OK, there's one (and I can think of a few more, but not many).

Now, if we start counting coaches who have had a lot of success and were not elite athletes, I think it would be a little easier.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Paulo, I'm surprised... The answer is simple. His name always comes up because there's probably no other individual in the sport of triathlon who does the following:

1. Participates in the sport at a very high level (time and results)

2. Dedicates as much time as he does to educating the world. He is completely open about everything he has done in the sport (ie the good, the bad and the really ugly). Keep in mind, he does it without ever once insulting anyone. He doesn't even use the slightest bit of sarcasm to make a point because he feels it's completely unnecessary.

One more thing and this is just my opinion... I don't think Gordo is near genetically gifted as most if not all of the other Pros out there. I think he has got as far as he has in the sport because he has this impeccable work ethic. He just reminds me of some normal dude who has an extreme passion for success.

Mitch Gold is another guy who has similar qualities, imho.

Bottom line, people like these qualities in individuals. It's inspiring and refreshing...

Thanks, Chris

I still think it's surprising. For example, if the name of this guy always come up, that wouldn't surprise me

http://www.excaliburtraining.com/



But it never does... I wonder why that is?! And we know the athletes he coaches.

"Dedicates as much time as he does to educating the world. He is completely open about everything he has done in the sport (ie the good, the bad and the really ugly)"

This is what I like about guys like Gordo and Mitch Gold. They do this, on their own time, and you can get it for free and better yourself. They don't have to offer this, but they do. In a sense, it is excellent marketing, whether they do it purposely or not is another question (the smart money says they are also good at business...) :-).

In fairness to Paulo, he is offering lots of good insights into the sport, especially on this forum. He just does it with a different style, but he'll give you the info that you ask of him, but may not just serve it up like Gordo and Mitch :-)

Dear RA,

It's ok if you don't like me, but to manipulate what I have said is unacceptable. I have met Marty twice now, I know people that know him and his coaching and I've read some things from him. I have the best opinion about him, so for you to come and put words in my mouth is, like I said, unacceptable.

If you want to attack me personally, like you've done countless times, please do it without involving somebody else.

Thank you and good night.

I think a lot of it has to do with "messaging" or an element of marketing. No doubt, I feel that Gordo has marketed himself quite well. Actually, extremely well. But he definitely has likeable characteristics too and I'm sure he realizes that. Brett, for example, seems to be a bit of a wildcard in that sense. You know, I've heard some "interesting" stories about him and his approach (independent of his success at coaching athletes).

Hey, I don't need to tell you... A certain level of success and notoriety will always be dependent on one's ability to market themselves.

Thanks, Chris

Chris,

When you hire somebody to coach you, do you want somebody to help you get to the next level or do you want a friend?

But your post about Gordo had some interesting points, certainly worth discussing, if only this was The Gordo Thread... IT IS NOT! ;-)))

Paulo,

Who else would you put at that level (of Sutton)?
Col Stewart must be up there.
Any other additions?

Dan

At Brett Sutton's level? Well, nobody, of course ;-)

But yes, Col Stewart for sure, Bill Davoren, Siri Lindley, Joel Filliol, Michael Krueger, Molina.

Would you say a coach who would let a novice athlete race 3 IMs in a single year is a great coach?

What marathon?

Are you up for a coaching challenge?

No Dave Scott, Lance Watson and Mark Allen :-(.

Didn't know this name before:
Michael Krueger

Anywhere to find more info? With a quick search I see he's Danish and coached Rasmus Henning but who else?

Great list of other names too!
Dan

What's that, the athletes I coach against the athletes you coach?

How about you do my day job and also do my Master's coursework, then I will have the time to coach some athletes;)

Otherwise I just coach myself, you coach yourself and we'll see how much I beat you by.

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*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."

Ever since I started coaching people, I've completed a Masters degree and a PhD, but I understand others might have difficulty ;-)

Now seriously, we can settle this now. You're a faster runner than me from the times you posted before. It's really a no-brainer.

I don't have anything to add, but it tickles me pink to listen to coaches talk about coaching.....

I'd definately agree that the best coaches don't necessarily need to be the greatest athletes of their time...although some rare ones are able to get down off their throne and do a great job.

On a sidenote, I'm quite surprised more triathletes (esp IM distance) don't use sports shrinks.

Yes, but with your superior coaching knowledge and my complete ignorance of modern training principles and general pea brain I would think I barely stand a chance.

Surely you aren't suggesting that talent may be equally (or more) important than coaching?

I figured without your expert guidance Sergio would be washing dishes (No slam intended do not know Sergio other than his triathlon palmares) or something, not getting on the podium at IMs.

I wouldn't have put it any better, thank you.

12 months from now that number will hopefully be 8 IMs in 26 months. :)

And, actually, yes, I do consider my coach to be a great one. There was nothing about "letting" me do all these IMs. We had several long and very frank discussions about my goals, my abilities, and my experience, and we are following a plan to hopefully get the most out of those abilities. These races are part of that plan, and we both think it's a good one. I am continually surprised at the big picutre view my coach has for me. I can only assume that he has a similar view for all of his clients.


Also, just because I have only been a runner for just over three years in no way makes me a "novice" athlete.


-Colin

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

The answer to your question seems obvious but I don't think it is. I think a lot of us want a little or a lot of both at times (consciously or even subconsciously). Sometimes I feel I need a coach just because I need someone to believe in me. Often that comes better from someone who's behaving like a friend and not as a "classic" coach.

Gordo is just an example. I think the points are applicable in general. Don't you think?

Thanks, Chris

No John Hellemans?

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Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy- Sir Isaac Newton.

I am sure I forgot a lot of people, he is one of them.

I have followed this thread over the last few days, and just now went back and reread the initial post.

There has been some good debate and some interesting perspectives put forth on a topic that a lot of people feel they know a lot about. Whether they do or not is another question, but nonetheless it has been a healthy discussion.

What is not so healthy is how folks quickly resort to anger or put downs if someone holds a different opinion to them. IMHO that sort of thing degrades the quality of the whole forum. And compared to some threads the tone of this one is quite mild!

It is a real shame.

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kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

People can't get over Brett's past... that's why his name doesn't come up.

I had the privilege of attending a lecture by Sutto... learned more in 3 hours, than 3 years on the internet forums. ;-)

Sindballe... and pretty much most of top Danish athletes...

Damn fine athlete himself.

>But it never does... I wonder why that is?! And we know the athletes he coaches.


Maybe he should read my post on how to become popular on the internet, then devote some of his time away from real life to post on slowtwitch?

You are so right.

Bob Kipputh, the famous swim coach of Yale University was not a competitive swimmer.

The present basketball coach of the of the NBA team The Nets was never a competitive basketball player.

I see newbie triathlon coaches all the time many are still full time competitors.

On our first trip to Curacao, John Howard, a great biker and Ironman winner, was our bike coach. He kept dropping the participants. I asked him why. He said that it would increase their desire to become stronger. I told them that they were getting pissed off and wanted instruction not humiliation. It does not matter how good an athlete you are, unless you can communicate and assist your athletes to become more fit and faster you are useless.

DougStern

There are many more like them

When you hire somebody to coach you, do you want somebody to help you get to the next level or do you want a friend?

Me? I want both. When I was in USAF pilot training, I always shut down with the screaming IPs. I responded better to calm instructors. Some prefer the screamers.

And Doug, I lived your point. When I started biking 3 years ago, I'd ride with completely competitive family members and hammer to keep up. No fun--and we're talking riding 15 miles here. I think it needs to be fun before it gets hard. As a newbie on the bike, it took me a long time to equate a bike ride with fun.

And RA, I agree. Martyg is a great coach. And I consider him a friend. So there you have it; it is a good combo to my way of thinking.

By the way I phrased it, it seems that it is mutually exclusive to have either a friend or a good coach. It is not, what I meant is that there's a lot of people that hire the "nice guy", and let that be the deciding factor.

Paulo,

I didn't even know I was quoting you (cut and paste thing)

I've already acknowledged the results you get with your athletes. I'm sure you'd get good results coaching me. And I'm sure you'd be smart enough to know that screaming wouldn't work with me. We'd be friends.

You're a savy guy. Hell, I'm flattered you've responded to a couple of my posts on this thread.

Good luck to you and your friends in Hawaii!