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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [fade] [ In reply to ]
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<<Much as I love studies, not everything is about double-blind testing>>

I agree, studies could only answer questions and address issues that are specific and well defined. Often they have no ecologic validity (that is measure what they are designed to predict in the real world). The subject matter is simple to conceptualise, but will not have clear cut answers any time soon.

Anyway, overall I agree with the distinctions that you are making, and I suppose it is semantics. We all agree.

For me, the fact that Paulo's athletes have impressive track record and are constantly progressing, and the fact that they stay with him long term shows that he is an effective coach.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [ In reply to ]
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There are many flavor of the day coaches, especially in triathlon or sports where the standards set by the governing body are so weak, the initial training course(s) so pathethic that any joe blow can pass and call themselves a coach. Swimming is another sport that comes to mind that also has many flavor of the day coaches. It is almost impossible to run a large swim team with just a head coach. You need several assistant coaches. Many of those assistants just finished thier swimming careers and while crappy to ok coaches now, may develop into a great coach later. Certifications can be gotten by any idiot.

Many athletes were successful in spite of what they did. There are many coaches who are good athletes, who are successful at some level in racing or sport, who are assumed to know what they are doing. There are some who actually do know what they are doing. Great athletes can make great coaches, just as mediocore athletes, poor athletes and non athletes can make great coaches. They can also make crappy coaches. No one thing makes a coach a good to great coach. There are several tools that a good to great coach should have in the toolbox.

Life experiences & athlete experiences - One is having the ability to take his/her experiences and have absorbed the lessons from those experiences while realizing those lessons are not all inclusive nor applicable to each athlete. Realize those lessons may only apply to 1% of the situations that your athletes may face. The coach should also take the experiences from the athletes he/she coaches and learn from those experiences.

Learning - Never underestimate the ability to learn. A coach will make a decent coach if she/he has asked and keeps asking the question why. If they asked when they were athletes they will have a better understandinng then the athlete that just followed blindly. They should still be asking now that they are a coach. Why this type of workout now, why not that type of workout? A great coach will take the answers and figure out how the answers apply to that specific situation and other situations both long and short term. A great coach should be able to answer the why for the when, how and what. A great coach who stops learning is no longer a great coach.

Personality - a great coach will have the ability to match his personality to the personality that the athlete needs for success. Some athletes need kid gloves, some need in your face attitude, some need to be told do X and don't think about it. Some need a mix of personality types. A great coach will almost intuitively know what the athlete needs and when. When the great coach gets it wrong he will learn from that situation.

Technical skills - A great coach will posses a good knowledge of technical skill(s) required by the sport(s) they are coaching. If that coach has a gap, a great coach is not afraid to refer an athlete to someone with better technical skills, nor is the great coach afraid to ask for help from a lessor known, lessor experineced coach who has better technical skills. The more a coach learns the better the coach can coach.

Academic background - a great coach has a degree in or has studied the physiology requirements of the sport(s) they are coaching. Not having an excellent background, be it from academia or from tons of reading, leaves a glaring weakness in the coaches foundation. They continue to read the literature that has been published to further increase their skill set. If you do not understand the basic science behind coaching then it will be hard to become a great coach.

Communicate - this goes along with personality but yet differs. A great coach can communicate with their athletes and other coaches.

Flexibility - A great coach needs to have the ability to kow when to change things and to know when not to change things. If plan A gets derailed for some reason, how to make plan B go towards the same goals.

Results - A great coach gets excellent results from a wide range of ability and athletes. There are coaches who are considered great b/c they have a great stable of athletes who have done great things but are not great coaches. There are coaches you have never heard of who are great coaches but don't have WC athletes. The results of one or two athletes do not make a coach great. Great results from a large scope of athletes make a coach great. Consistent improvement over long periods of time with the same athletes make a coach great. Any coach can improve an athlete for a year or two or make a young athlete faster. The great coaches can take an athlete and continue to improve them over a span of 3-7 years or take an older athlete and make them faster at a time when they really should be getting slower.

Depth and breadth - a great coach will have lots of experience from his many years spent coaching and racing if they raced. They will have acquired lots of knowledge and they will be able to apply that knowledge to each specific individual that they coach. They will have coached a sufficient number of athletes to have sharpened their technical skills, gained knowledge from their athletes experiences, learned from reading and talking with other coaches. The great coaches will be able to take that learning and apply it going forward, while picking up new knowledge and assimilating it with their previous knowledge. The best coaches will look at the new information, research, experiences, knowledge and skills and see how it fits into or challenges his/her paradigm of thinking. A great coach is not afraid to shift their paradigm of thinking. A great coach does not shift their paradigm of thinking every month either. N=1 or 10 does not lend itself to making someone a great coach.

Mentoring & Observation - A great coach will have most likely trained under or with other coaches at some point. The great coach will have absorbed what was going on in the surroundings and seperate what they saw did not work from what they noticed that did work. They will have asked why this did or did not work. They will have observed how the coaches they worked with, and themselves interacted and how the athletes reacted. Even today where there is much internet interaction and little face to face interaction, a great coach will be able to read through his emails and pick up on what the athlete is saying, not what has been typed. A coach who did not have this training can still be a great coach, it will just take longer since they did not have tha advantage of watching other screw up and learning from those mistakes.

Getting to know the athlete - Great coaches learn the person that the athlete is. What makes them tick, who they really are. A coach who does not care about you only cares about your $. The coach does not have to be your friend, but the great coach takes the time to learn about who you are.

Thinking - Great coaches are always thinking about how to improve their athletes and how they can improve themselves.

Failing - All coaches fail at some point with some athletes. A great coach learns from these failures and becomes a better coach due to this experience. A coach who never fails never truly coaches.

Coaching - A great coach can skillfully blend in the right amounts at the right time, the science of coaching with the art of coaching.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 8, 06 8:28
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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No, it's not about you. Rather, it is about those you do not have respect for. It's clear you don't respect anyone in the Gordo camp. Like I said, eventually you would make it known on this thread. Either directly or implied.

This is not an ad hominem attacked. This is an observation. If you want to get defensive about it, that is your decision.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Learning - Never underestimate the ability to learn. A coach will make a decent coach if she/he has asked and keeps asking the question why. If they asked when they were athletes they will have a better understandinng then the athlete that just followed blindly. They should still be asking now that they are a coach. Why this type of workout now, why not that type of workout? A great coach will take the answers and figure out how the answers apply to that specific situation and other situations both long and short term. A great coach should be able to answer the why for the when, how and what. A great coach who stops learning is no longer a great coach.

Brian,

Great post (seriously).

I understand that coaches will have different insights and different preferences, and I also understand there are a lot of ways to get to the same destination (I encourage this). A lot of athletes will require different roads to the same place.

The one thing that truly bothers me about certain coaches are guys that do not speak from the "What I have found is ..." perspective, but simply parrot what was said at a clinic, course, book, etc. "So-n-So says ...". They simply lack the knowledge/experience to evaluate a strategy, and just do it because someone else does ... furthermore they apply it to EVERYONE they coach, coimpletely ignoring individual differences among athletes.

There are coaches you have never heard of who are great coaches but don't have WC athletes.

I know we don't have data and/or studies (and likely can'y have given the array of attributes we're talking about), but what I've seen from 25 years in playing/coaching sports, I'd guess that MOST of the outstanding coaching performances go without notice, because they "don't win it all". I don't know that the flipside (bad coach, lots of talented athletes) is as true as often, but I've seen that happen.

---------------------------

The same things that make a great coach, make a great teacher. I've often referred to coaching as "intimate teaching" because that's what it is. The effectiveness should be assessed by how much the athlete improves and/or how much out of their ability the athlete gets. It almost always has the be viewed on an individual case-by-case basis because, as you said, even the best coach is going to fail with an individual at some point.

Too often the coach/teacher is labelled great because they have great athletes/students, and far too often outstanding coaches/teachers go unnnoticed because they simply coach/teach athletes/students with much less initial talent, overall potential, and/or outside support.

With the whole certification thing ... this is not unique to triathlon. The demand for coaches is greater than the supply. So, mass certification methods are designed for the purpose of getting as many "trained" coaches out ther as possible. People will pay, often times good money, for a coach without knowing if the coach has been effective or not.

The tpic is very interesting to me, and I do point out I am not speaking from triathlon experience, but quality individual teaching/coaching is quality individual teaching/coaching. The attributes are the same, the content is different.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian,

Great post, really awesome.

I particularly liked this definition:

"Great results from a large scope of athletes make a coach great."

It's interesting and at the same time amusing that people involved in sports have a difficulty with identifying what success in sports, like it was some kind of mutating or ethereal definition.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
No, it's not about you. Rather, it is about those you do not have respect for. It's clear you don't respect anyone in the Gordo camp. Like I said, eventually you would make it known on this thread. Either directly or implied.

This is not an ad hominem attacked. This is an observation. If you want to get defensive about it, that is your decision.


Just in case you don't know what ad hominem is, because you're doing it again, here's a definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I am through replying to your posts. Good day.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Despite all of your success, You are very sensitive to perceived critisism. Why is that?
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not attacking you. I'm just making it an observation. You believe it is an ad hominem attack because you are veiwing it through your personal defensive lense.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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DD,

Very thorough and well articulated response. I particularly like the part about taking an athlete and seeing improvement over 3-7 years or prolonging an older athlete's career. A good coach can cause a young athlete to improve but a GREAT coach will take an experienced athlete to the next level.

--------------------------

Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [qcassidy] [ In reply to ]
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Some coaches are really good at initial/beginning athletes, but poor with advanced athletes. Others are really good with advanced athletes, but horrible with initial/beginning athletes.

I don't think the same coach/teacher should necessarily be expected to take an athlete from initial to advanced status. That's asking A LOT out of one coach/teacher.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah TT, that's what the world great means... for the other situations there's "pretty good", "good", "mediocre" and "not so good".
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't think the same coach/teacher should necessarily be expected to take an athlete from initial to advanced status. That's asking A LOT out of one coach/teacher.


Some coaches have that ability, hence the reason why they would be great. On the flip side, there is a coaching group out here in Phoenix that does a great job with first timers but are not very good at developing athletes beyond the initial newbie stage.

Part of being a great coach would be knowing your strength(s) and weakness(es) then figuring out if you want to stick with only your strength(s) or if you want to expand your knowledge base. If a coach is fine with not being able to develop someone beyond the initial stages then they should focus on doing the best job possible with the population they choose to coach.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Some coaches have that ability, hence the reason why they would be great.

I agree, and hope my comments did not suggest otherwise.

When you list all the attributes that a great coach, teacher, doctor, lawyer, principal, parent, pastor, etc would need to have ... it's amazing that anyone ever actually meets the "requirements".

Even in "great" coaches, there are very few, if any, that are great in all regards. Most great coaches simply do a "few things very well", and these few things usually are in the areas of "people skills, motivation, encouragement, and planning". In short great coaches (and teachers, etc) possess the skills you can't teach, and are willing to learn what they can.

One of the best books I've ever read is "Wooden on Leadership". His principles are so simple and straight-forward and the language is so "everyday", that I would imagine many folks would read the book and think "There's no way that can work. It's too easy".

Anyway, I am enjoying the insights of others regarding something I deal with on a daily basis (coaching, in another regard).

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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Who has Gordo actually coached?????
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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As desert dude said:

"A great coach gets excellent results from a wide range of ability and athletes"

key word: RESULTS
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [synchronicity] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [TripleThreat] [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Some coaches are really good at initial/beginning athletes, but poor with advanced athletes. Others are really good with advanced athletes, but horrible with initial/beginning athletes.

I don't think the same coach/teacher should necessarily be expected to take an athlete from initial to advanced status. That's asking A LOT out of one coach/teacher.

I agree with every one of those words TT. Then it is pretty hard to say good bye, to that first coach. But sometimes you have to.

Sergio


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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"Gordo wrote a pretty good book and has a good website , being that you both coach elites,"

BUT WHO DOES HE ACTUALLY COACH? HUH? You have to coach people to be a coach right?

Anyone can write a book and put up a website.....
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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If your first coach can't take you to the top... why not find one that will?
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [synchronicity] [ In reply to ]
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If you write a very succesful book on coaching Ironman athletes, and that's what Gordo did , and your website is full of coaching advice and material I guess that makes him a coach. You know , if it looks like a duck , it is....

If you want to get technical , he coached a club mate of mine at Epic Camp , who by the way races Elite at the Ironman distance.
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][reply]
So, just curious - do we collectively think Gordo is a good coach? (OK, so he's never won Kona, but most would concur that he's a top tier Pro athlete) [/reply]
Why is it always about Gordo, why does his name always come up? And how many top tier pros there are?[/reply]

Yes, why is it everyone is a "top tier" pro? We all know that getting a pro card is not like making it through the PGA Q-school or making it out of AAA baseball. Just being a pro-triathlete; unlike, say, just being in the NBA; carries little to no meaning. The worst guy in the NFL/MLB/NBA was among the best players on his college team. He is, if you calculate the odds out, something like one in ten thousand or so. Maybe even more elite.

To be a top tier pro, IMO (and I think you share the same opinion, Paulo) you must have won a race at the distance you specialize in. If you are an IM pro, then you must have won a MDot or similar level IM (such as Roth). If you race 1/2, then you must win one of the big 1/2's (Wildflower, St. Croix, Florida, Vineman, etc.), if you race Oly, then you must have either won a World Cup or a major non-drafting Oly (such as LA, Chicago, NYC, Lifetime, etc.).

A top tier pro means that you have, on at least one occassion, been able to beat some of the best in the world at the distance you choose to specialize in.

As a side note, I am pretty sure Gordo considers himself a coach, because when you go to his website (gordoworld.com), there is a link that says "Coach Gordo." Doesn't seem to be too much trickery going on there...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [runner man] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I totally agree.

Look at Bela Karolyi .

Bela can't do a cartwheel if his life depended on it.

Bela is the coach of the women's gymnastic greats like Nadia Comaneci and Keri Strug the girl who landed on one foot and won the US gold in 1996.[/reply]

Great example!

BTW, the Johan Bruyneel example was awful (although he is a master tactitian/dir sportif and very dedicated)

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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Coach: someone in charge of training an athlete or a team

Writing a book and doing a website make him in charge of noone.

Now.. your buddy just attended Epic Camp and listened to advice, or is he actually coached on an ongoing basis?
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [synchronicity] [ In reply to ]
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Synch,

Want me to change the title of the thread to "The Gordo Thread"? Because I can do it if you want... ;-)
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Desertdude, very nice post, you made many excellent points, however, the only area where I have a different view is that a great coach has to be able to take someone over a span of many years. I kinda see it like being a CEO. Some CEOs specialize in startups, some at taking companies to IPO, or even a Series B or C. Some can take a company from IPO to $100M in revenue, and then you have others that can effectively run a multi billion dollar transnational company. All can be great in their area of specialty. Certainly there can be coaches that are great with newbies, and also coaches that can be great getting ITU also rans to the World Championship podiums, while others can be great getting also rans to Kona age group qualifier. I think really its not up to coaches to define what makes a coach great or successful. Like in any service business, it is up to the customers to decide. :-).

Clearly, many coaches will specialize in certain areas, just like there are doctors that are GP's vs those that are neurosurgeons. They can all be great in their own way.

Dev
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Re: Flavor of the day coaching [synchronicity] [ In reply to ]
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Talking to some other friends who participated in EpicCamp, there is coaching going on. Maybe Gordo does not end up coaching some of these guys over the long term, but over the short term, there is coaching. No different than going to a Scotty Bowman hockey camp for 2 weeks, so that you can be trained by some of the best in the business.
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