Dev,

I make both cases. The long term 3-7 yr case in my OP on this thread and in my second post I make a case for coaches that are only capable of doing one thing. In the first case the coach can develop a beginner through their triathlon lifecycle or take someone who is on the back side of their career and cause them to move up a notch.

In the second case if the coach or in the example I provided, the coaching group, is great at developing beginners. They should focus on what they do best realizing their limitations. They can be the springboard that new athletes use to extend their triathlon fun or take the next step.

IMO, this is where many former great athletes end up starting their coaching careers (and for their athletes sake hopefully progress), I can think of one former top ranked ITU athlete who has taken (or copied) what they learned from their former coach and are regeritating it to the athletes they coach. These former athletes know one maybe two methods of coaching (mostly what their coaches did to them) and unfortunately more athletes will never realize their potential then will in this type of one or two sizes fits all coaching methodolgy.

BTW there is a link to a 20-25min video to your race on the F1 track. If you want to see it, PM me I can dig it up.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Let's stay away from single examples of coaches that are successful coaching something they've never done, unless we can compile a rather substancial list, which would be interesting. Can we name 5 highly successful gymastics coaches that have never done gymnastics? Or just that one?. I ask because the "refute a mountain of observation with a single example" is a Lavender Room strategy that I'd prefer stay over there. We can certainly bring up Ted Williams as a counter example. It would be interesting to see statistical trends about successful coaches and their backgrounds.

Talking about the 1% is not very relevant to the whole (regardless of what topic we are talking about). Exceptions to the norm are just that ... they don't become the new norm. I'm not sure how much more can be said on this aspect without further data.

One thing I do notice in various sports, is that some folks (I have no idea what %) seem to take as much (if not more) pride in WHO their coach is versus HOW their coach is.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Desertdude, yup, some guys just don't realize the niche that they are great at. At this point they go from potentially great to mediocre. Like the case of the GP and neurosurgeon, I like dealing with medical professionals who have an excellent "network" of peers who they can refer me to when they reach their limitations. I think tri coaching is no different. For example, someone could be an excellent overall tri coach and refer his athletes, who are pushing the edge of the coaches capabilities in imparting technical swimming to a pure swim coach who can raise the bar technically for the triathlon coach's athletes!

I think that says it all. How many people can be great at everything. I think the great coaches are good at most things but they know their limitations. If they don't have the answers they find someone who does instead of making something up. There are a lot of things that go into tri training and coaching and it would be rare for someone to excel in everything. It would be much easier to do what you do well and seek help in the things that you don't do well.

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~~~ ><)))))))))))))))))))))))*> ~~~~~ ><}}}}> ~~~~~~
Marc

http://www.triformore.com

Nice post Brian. The main metric to me regarding success in coaching is simple: results. Coaches, just like athletes, can only truly be measured by results. Of course there are many skills and attributes that lead to getting results as a coach, but when I think of coaches I consider great, I think of the ones who consistently get world class results with their athletes, and who are able to do so again and again over time, with different types of athletes, even in different disciplines of the sport.

One other factor you forgot, which is key, is anyone who has coached forum legend jonnyo, or even better, had him live with them and is here to tell the tale, must be among the coaching greats! ;-)

What did I tell you about the duck thing ?

Look , if this is so important to you than go on the back face of Gordo's book , I quote " Gordo Byrn is an elite long distance triathlete and coach".

He is certified with USA Triathlon , Triathlon Australia , and the American Swim coaches association.

Now , who cares ? It's not about Paulo or Gordo .

I think it is on ultrasport.tv?

...oh and great posts DD.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Brian... Sergio will study in the States in 2008. Either in CA or AZ. It all depends if he will continue track racing or not (hurricanes don't count on this decision :) ). If it is AZ, I hope you can be his coach. Just do not take him rock climbing ;)

Best wishes,

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I evaluate coaches on their success with athletes. There are a couple of coaches here in Chicago that I noticed have had some significant improvements/success with their age group athletes. If I was ever to hire a coach it would probably be one of them. A coaches athletic accomplishments in any sport shouldnt be a deciding factor.

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I don't give a shit who he's certified with. I know plenty of boneheads with certifications.

I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

Has he taken complete responsibility for an athlete for a season, or two, or three and produced results? As far as I can tell.. or anyone else can tell me... NO.

Knowledge and practice are two different things.

No, this thread is not about gordo, but his name keeps coming up as a "coach"... and I can't quite figure out what makes him a coach. But, you've clarified that for me.... Gordo is a duck, not a coach. ;-)

Brian,

Excellent post.

As for Gordo actually coaching athletes, of course he does. I can name several he has/is off the top of my head. Hell, just ask him :-)

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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I won't speak for Gordo or the athlete, but I personally know of at least one person who he coaches who won his age group at an IM. I believe at any one time Gordo will only coach 5-6 people.

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http://bigisland-will.blogspot.com/

[reply]I don't give a shit who he's certified with. I know plenty of boneheads with certifications.

I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

Has he taken complete responsibility for an athlete for a season, or two, or three and produced results? As far as I can tell.. or anyone else can tell me... NO.

Knowledge and practice are two different things.

No, this thread is not about gordo, but his name keeps coming up as a "coach"... and I can't quite figure out what makes him a coach. But, you've clarified that for me.... Gordo is a duck, not a coach. ;-)[/reply]

Greg, what is your problem????

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Problem solved Cathy. will has confirmed that Gordo does indeed coach someone....

Silly. Crazy. Gordo has coached successfully across the spectrum of athlete types; all ages and abilities. Pros and elite AGers. He has guided back of the pack to podium finishes at international IMs. There have been multiple podium finishes (Pro and AG) at international IMs in the past year alone. He has coached a masters athlete to multiple IM Hawaii podium finishes. Two of his full time athletes won IM age group championships this year. There are dozens of Kona qualifications that have come about under Gordo's coaching. There are numerous elites and Pros whose names others don't know because it is no body elses business. Don't confuse being humble or protecting privacy with doing nothing.

>I don't give a shit if he wrote a book, I could write a book too.

You are a VIKING! ***


















*** a viking with gordo issues.

Everyone keeps telling you Gordo's a coach , and I'm glad you finaly believe somebody , so maybe now we could move on....

Gordo a duck ? , no....



But we know what you are ....

This is a simple question I would ask before hiring a tri-coach: Based on my past performance, how much better can I do and why? And then, give me some examples.

The answer to this question is one reason I like race calculators. Based on my 5K time, I can predict my best marathon time even though I've never run one before. But if I do one, I know what is possible even if I fall short the first time around. I know that the fault lies in the training program and that I can improve by tweaking the program. The program inherently lies upon the coach and his/her refinement.

I agree that the best coaches are students of the sport and often those without the natural gift of speed. Bob Hannish here in Milwaukee is a wonderful coach and has a wonderful objective viewpoint. For example, at the local track workouts you don't see him out there ripping off 1:05 400's and you never would. He's there to coach you. He cares and he's got the knowledge.

I would love to make more blanket statements, but upon reflection there are too many exceptions to make them monographical.

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Matt Amman

I think hiring a coach is a really personal thing , and could go either way.

If I could afford to hire a coach , I would , and I would be torn with the descision of hiring a great mind like Paulo or a guy who walks the walk like Rappstar. That's a hard one , don't know what my flavor would be?

Either way I'm sure I'd be better off.

Actualy there is an Elite Ironman Athlete ( Terry Kerrigan ) in my club who has giving me a little more than advice , I'd say he's coached me. It's been succesful too , which is suprising since I place right behind him at club races , and it's pretty cut throat at our races. He's helped me shave more than a minute off my sprint time in only 4 weeks. I had confidence in following his program for 4 weeks and it worked. Still , I think this is rare and most of the best coaches are not competetive athletes .

In virtually every sport the best coaches were guys that did make it to a reasonably high level, but were not superstars.

Scotty Bowman of the NHL is a classic example and there are many in pro sports.

On the other side, Gretzky has been coaching in Phoenix and had mixed to poor results. Gretzky cannot get others to do what he did because much of what he did is something you can't teach. The same goes for Jordan, Tiger, Montana etc.

I can think of very few athletes who were at the top ranks of their sport and also had great coaching success.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

I think your post is pretty meaningless until you define what a successful coach is. That's a pretty subjective term.

I am not a coach, I am not a good athlete and I do not have a Phd so maybe I don't know anything about coaching but in terms of triathlon, a successful coach is someone who has winning athletes.

As much as we like to flower things and say things like a successful coach has "happy" athletes who "achieve all their goals and have a balance in their lives", for the most part, the ones who produce athletes that win, are the ones in demand.

That's why the top athletes can generate a lot of clients without having any coaching ability, people want him/her to get them to their level.

Paolo and others who have not won Hawaii or other major races have to coach based on gaining knowledge and that is why I agree with his post. Top athletes rely on what they did, which works for them, but coaches without that personal experience, have to rely on what works for you, the athlete and that is much more challenging.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Hey KKL, best of luck working with Marty. I worked with Marty for a few years, bumbling from a total beginner to a decent IM finisher. Marty is not what Paulo would call a "great" triathlete - though outstanding in my view - and probably not a "great" coach by his standard either, but I think he is truly a gifted coach notwithstanding his athletic prowess. I have learned from his failures as much as his successes. I appreciate his shortcomings in some key races as both of us learned from them. At the end of the day, he imparted some good knowledge to me, buttressed by great emotional support and a positive attitude. Is that enough to create greatness? Who knows. But for the rest of us recreational athletes, it was great stuff indeed.

<< I can think of very few athletes who were at the top ranks of their sport and also had great coaching success >>

{almost choking on my sausage, kielbasa, and brats}

DITKA

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float , hammer , and jog

DITKA

OK, there's one (and I can think of a few more, but not many).

Now, if we start counting coaches who have had a lot of success and were not elite athletes, I think it would be a little easier.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Paulo, I'm surprised... The answer is simple. His name always comes up because there's probably no other individual in the sport of triathlon who does the following:

1. Participates in the sport at a very high level (time and results)

2. Dedicates as much time as he does to educating the world. He is completely open about everything he has done in the sport (ie the good, the bad and the really ugly). Keep in mind, he does it without ever once insulting anyone. He doesn't even use the slightest bit of sarcasm to make a point because he feels it's completely unnecessary.

One more thing and this is just my opinion... I don't think Gordo is near genetically gifted as most if not all of the other Pros out there. I think he has got as far as he has in the sport because he has this impeccable work ethic. He just reminds me of some normal dude who has an extreme passion for success.

Mitch Gold is another guy who has similar qualities, imho.

Bottom line, people like these qualities in individuals. It's inspiring and refreshing...

Thanks, Chris