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Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury
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Are the benefits to running off the bike considerable and necessary or is doing them a recipe for injuries?

There are two types of bricks, the short 10-15 minute run and then a 60-90 minute run off the bike so keep this in mind with your recommendations.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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I think they are almost mandatory. I haven't done anything longer than 40 minutes off a long ride but they are definitely beneficial. If you're getting injured you're probably trying to go too hard too often.

I think even a 5 minute jog would help, just long enough to get your running legs back.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [borncrazy] [ In reply to ]
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Beneficial for learning about nutrition....your nutrition and how your body reacts to it etc.

2020: IMSG | IM70.3 Des Moines |
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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Often do bricks since training for sprints or Olympic distances. Usually three a week or about 200 a year.

Running after the bike is instructive. The legs have to adjust and taking short quick strides helps me shift from riding to running. It also helps me to go easy (spin) on the bike for the last minute or two so the legs feel fresh(er). Any length of run is better than no run. I prefer to do runs that are comparable to my race distance 5-10K. If you are going for a full IM, you would probably not do that amount of time unless you plan on getting a lot of support while doing so.

Injuries? There are any number of start up injuries that can occur if new to an activity. Or, chronic ones if you have been at it for awhile. What kind of injuries do you have or are you thinking you will get them? I get injuries and can usually figure out the cure if they hang around. Still going at 60.

What helps sometimes is a "healthy" fatigue that keeps one from hurting oneself while building endurance. Get off the bike knowing that you will be running, albeit awkwardly, for the first five to ten minutes. You might surprise yourself that running after a bike "warmup" might be considerably better than starting off cold in a few years.

Don't make it a big deal. Walk back if needed. Tell yourself that this brick is just for more information to help you in the future.

A cool down swim will help get the tiredness out of the legs after the run.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with borncrazy this is my first year doing multisport and was amazed at how bad it felt running off the bike. I spent the summer doing bricks and now I barely hurt.....maybe like 1 to 2 mins when I first start the run if at all. But i say it's all but mandatory at least one a week when in training for a race.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [borncrazy] [ In reply to ]
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Mandatory... I don't think so. It helps to do them at first when you're getting started because it's an odd feeling running off the bike. I just barely do them anymore and can't say I feel like I need to do them very often. I will do them 1-2 times before a race, once on race week at race pace and never much more than 10-15min. My longest brick for IM was 20 minutes.
My opinion is that if your legs feel like shit coming off the bike it means you bike fitness is just not there yet. The first 10-15 minutes running off the bike will tell you exactly what you need to know in terms of how your race will go and there's no need to do more.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
much more than 10-15min. My longest brick for IM was 20 minutes.
My opinion is that if your legs feel like shit coming off the bike it means you bike fitness is just not there yet. The first 10-15 minutes running off the bike will tell you exactly what you need to know in terms of how your race will go and there's no need to do more.
I don't agree with this statement, as my experience is that my feeling / RPE the first 1~2 miles of the run are highly misleading. My legs need to adjust from cycling to running, my breathing rhythm seems off somehow, and my tendency is to run too fast coming out of T1 so gotta focus on what my garmin tells me. For me those first 15 minutes therefore mean nothing - they are something I need to get through before my RPE gets recalibrated sort of speak.

I do bricks 2x per week, as part of a short higher intensity brick during the week (45' fast bike + 30' fast run) and during the weekend after my long ride (30~60'). I find them very insightful, you learn how to pace correctly according to your fitness level, you will notice if your hydration or nutrition is not dialed in, and it'll help give you more confidence in yourself when you've done these transitions over and over again in training.

When I started triathlon several years ago i also was amazed how weak my legs felt after the bike but that feeling is long gone. For short, high intensity bricks my run always feels fantastic somehow, the longer weekend ones bring some more suffering because I start off tired, but I don't see any reasons why it would be a recipe for injuries. I'd say go for it!


_____________________
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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I ride my bike trainer 7 days a week. 4 days a week I get on the treadmill after the ride for 10 minutes 6:30 pace bricks.

3 days a week, like I am going to do right now, I bike for 60 to 90 minutes, then I go for a cross country hill run
for 90 minutes.

When I am swimming during the season, I always bike after the swim and then brick on the treadmill.


Yep, most important thing is to not get hurt or you are always trying to catch up.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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Lot's of mis information in this thread. First off if you search the archives you'll see numerous threads with links to research done on bike/run transitions.

The answer to your question is sort of to the benefits and no to the injury.

Running off the bike is a skill that needs to be learned. You already know how to run so you won't teach yourself anything new there. There are neurological pattern differences running off the bike vs running with no prior bike. All the research shows that you will revert to normal motor patterning after at most 1km of running (3-5minutes). It also shows that people who do repeated bouts of b/r/b/r/b/r say 2-3km bike + 400-600m running repeated multiple times will run faster over the first kilometer of the triathlon. This is very important if you are racing ITU on the professional level and the importance of this diminishes rapidly as the distance increases and the further back you are from the front of the race overall or in your age group. It's most applicable to sprint then olympic racing and least applicable to IM racing. Doing a few ride then run then done now and then isn't going to really help nor will it hinder your training/racing.

I know lots of LC pros and age groupers who only do bricks when racing and that hasn't stopped them from running under 1:20/2:50 for half or IM distance. It's a skill that once learned doesn't need to be reinforced often bc you already know how to run and your body will revert back in the first 3-5 minutes to normal run motor patterns no matter if you brick or not.

Now people say you need to do a brick to test your nutrition. That may be the case. Or it may not. If you go out and do some hard long IM like rides, you can see how many kJ's you've expended. Then convert these to calories and you know your caloric burn rate (you need a powermeter for this). But I'd also say that if you do that long hard ride and you get off shelled and feel like crap, tired, wasted you've probably under eaten during it anyway or over biked what you should do in an IM. I suspect that many coaches will disagree with me and I welcome that debate.

The other thing to keep in mind is the recovery cost. running after a long and/or hard ride, especially if you run long or hard will increase the recovery cost vs that same run done with no bike. If you are using that to replace a quality (fast tempo/threshold run) you will run it at a lower velocity vs fresh and there for end up overall not as fast as you could have been. Quality runs should always be done relatively fresh in order to maximize the benefits. You can not run too fast in a triathlon.

it is a time saver though. I'd challenge you to think of a way to do your workouts that would provide more overall benefit with less recovery cost.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I have never practiced nutrition basically ever in any training. I know my boom works for me in races so I just use it.

I never bricked from any long bikes. Was just too tired.

Since I do short course racing, yep, being able to get speed right off the bike is a huge help compared to my competition.

For me never makes sense to run on rested legs since I never race that way. Not trying to set any time records with my run training,
just training to stay healthy. I just see so many with various running injuries. Guess this is why so many are so slow in races.

,

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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Running after cycling is a part of triathlon. Running well during the run is critical to "success" in triathlon. So, it goes without saying that this is something that you need to do - that at some point in your triathlon career/training, you do a lot of to get really good at it. It's not something that you need to do ALL the time. Like most things in training it needs to be balanced.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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This is a topic I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I agree with desert dude in the sense that running off the bike is a skill that can be honed. But I will take it one step further in that I think the skill is more 'running on tired legs'. I think if you do a lot of running directly off the bike you can desensitize yourself to the pain and awkwardness of the first kilometer / mile of the run, allowing you to get into a good rhythm faster. I don't think there is massive benefits to be had by doing this though. I won't start running directly off of the bike until race season is very near i.e. within one month of my first race. Mainly because it is very taxing, and I don't think there is a huge benefit to it.

Learning to run on tired legs on the other hand I think you can get progressively better at over time (more efficient muscle recruitment patters, breathing patterns, relaxation, etc.). And can hone the skill more safely. By about June of this year I began doing all of my running after my biking. This raised a bit of controversy and there was even a thread on here started about it:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=5344025;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


That particular quote was taken out of context. I do not recommend anyone suddenly begin doing all of their running on tired legs all at once. I do think you can see massive gains, very quickly if you run progressively more on tired legs. Starting with once per week, then twice, etc. Very quickly you can adapt to doing all of your running on tired legs. You can then go a step further and schedule a bike interval workout in the morning and a run interval workout in the evening. In the beginning, with all of these things I would highly recommend giving yourself as much time as possible in between the two workouts. This is another aspect you can control. Over time you can decrease the amount of time between the workouts. When in my best shape I will do a bike workout in the morning and then a run workout just two hours later. I find this method allows you to realize just about all of the gains of the "hard brick" without nearly as much physical and mental taxation. Even during race season I will only do one direct run off the bike per week.


I think it's always best to err on the side of caution and sustainability. This method I feel has allowed me to improve my running off the bike greatly, without nearly as much risk from doing multiple direct brick workouts ever week.

http://www.lsanderstri.com
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I've never had any issues running the first 1-2k off the bike in short races. By the time I get to T1 I'm hopped up on caffeine and race induced adrenaline that I pretty much smoke that first mile. The hard part is hanging on afterwards when the reality kicks in :)


h2ofun wrote:
I have never practiced nutrition basically ever in any training. I know my boom works for me in races so I just use it.

I never bricked from any long bikes. Was just too tired.

Since I do short course racing, yep, being able to get speed right off the bike is a huge help compared to my competition.

For me never makes sense to run on rested legs since I never race that way. Not trying to set any time records with my run training,
just training to stay healthy. I just see so many with various running injuries. Guess this is why so many are so slow in races.

,
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [LSandersTri] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder how fast you could run if you actually thought about what you typed and what may happen if you changed how you do things?

It, your running, could be even scarier.

sorry man but I see low hanging fruit on your tree.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 27, 14 11:39
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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What connection are you drawing between running off the bike and injuries? Or are you just stating two independent things that you think are important? Staying injury free should obviously be a goal for every athlete. Not sure how bricks fit into that though.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I am assuming your are talking in reference to a belief that quality should always be done fresh, so that it is the highest quality quality. I do believe this has a great deal of value. Particularly in the early stages of training both in one's career and in one's season. For instance, I am currently not doing any bike and run interval workouts on the same day, because I would like to push my Vo2Max to its highest point, and in order to have the best shot at doing this, I need to be fairly fresh. But, I have been running for quite a while now so running is probably my least likely discipline for absolute improvement. I think my biggest gains at this point are going to come from becoming more efficient at running off the bike vs. pushing maximum physiological values to their limits. I certainly believe in spending time pursuing both endeavours. Running a fast marathon off the bike certainly depends on having high absolute values like Vo2Max and Lactate Threshold, but this certainly is not the only factor.

http://www.lsanderstri.com
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
What connection are you drawing between running off the bike and injuries? Or are you just stating two independent things that you think are important? Staying injury free should obviously be a goal for every athlete. Not sure how bricks fit into that though.

I guess I just believe in a few things.

First, run all year long. run lots of hills. IMO, one does not need to do any track work, just open it up in races.

I believe there is nothing negative to always running on tired legs, which is what I do on all my runs.

Folks who seem to want to push it such that so many end up hurt makes no sense to me. I would rather hit the start line 95% trained, than not at all.

I just look at the folks I know who are so much better than me, but either they are not at the start line, or they cannot run worth beans.

So I just look at folks saying there is only one way to do things and then I just want to see their results.

I just know that since after my bike 4 days a week I hit the treadmill for 6:30 10 minute run, that when I am in a race, I seem to be able to just take off since this
is mentally what I have trained myself to do.

Again, I never run after a long bike. I just do not see any value and too much risk of injury. I save this risk for a real race.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [LSandersTri] [ In reply to ]
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yes. Firmly believe that quality should be done fresh. True you have less upside potential on the run than most pro triathletes. smart call on vo2 running

Typically the faster one is say when racing/running open distance the faster they will consistently be in triathlon. running fast is a good way to increase economy as well. (as is hills, high mileage, high frequency)

In your case it's probably worth it to trade 2 min on the run for 2 on the swim and 2-3 on the bike.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
I've never had any issues running the first 1-2k off the bike in short races. By the time I get to T1 I'm hopped up on caffeine and race induced adrenaline that I pretty much smoke that first mile. The hard part is hanging on afterwards when the reality kicks in :)

I'm pretty much the same way off the bike
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely one of the beauties of triathlon is that there is just so much to tinker around with; and the sport is so young that I don't think anyone has the "golden rule" of training. The unfortunate thing is that there isn't an unlimited amount of time. Each year is an experiment where at the start of the year I tinker with a few things, and then draw conclusions based on race performances. With regards to this thread, I think adding a bit more running on tired legs to the program can pay large dividends, but this definitely doesn't all have to come from the "hard brick." A bit of creativity in this regard can go a long way. That is the only point I would like to make.

Another interesting thing I have found from doing my bike and runs so close together is that I am usually running with lunch still in my belly. Knock on wood, I have had no problems with digestion in races. This seems to be another skill that can be honed utilizing this method.

http://www.lsanderstri.com
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kiwi nz] [ In reply to ]
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Was going to give you grief for posting about bricks again (your last thread on the topic should have put your mind at rest), but I find myself thanking you for getting Brian and Lionel on here throwing around more great stuff.

Congrats.
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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"I've never had any issues running the first 1-2k off the bike in short races. By the time I get to T1 I'm hopped up on caffeine and race induced adrenaline that I pretty much smoke that first mile."

In HIMs, my biggest concern in the first mile was keeping the pace slow as perceived effort would have me going way too fast. I found that doing a 15' tempo run after a ride (I measured 1/4 mile intervals from my house) helped me to dial in RPE/pace. Plus, it was good to get a run in while already kitted up and practice transition.

Definitely don't feel like there was anything magical I gained about running off the bike though, and definitely not necessary.

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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [LSandersTri] [ In reply to ]
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LSandersTri wrote:
I am assuming your are talking in reference to a belief that quality should always be done fresh, so that it is the highest quality quality. I do believe this has a great deal of value. Particularly in the early stages of training both in one's career and in one's season. For instance, I am currently not doing any bike and run interval workouts on the same day, because I would like to push my Vo2Max to its highest point, and in order to have the best shot at doing this, I need to be fairly fresh. But, I have been running for quite a while now so running is probably my least likely discipline for absolute improvement. I think my biggest gains at this point are going to come from becoming more efficient at running off the bike vs. pushing maximum physiological values to their limits. I certainly believe in spending time pursuing both endeavours. Running a fast marathon off the bike certainly depends on having high absolute values like Vo2Max and Lactate Threshold, but this certainly is not the only factor.

I think you are spending time re inventing the wheel doing all your run workouts off the bike/on trashed legs. You're using your N=1 sample size and because of your massively large engine, you are able to overcome throwing out the low hanging fruit that Brian is pointing out. It was already proven around 30 years ago that you don't need to do all your run workouts on tired legs. You don't need to go through all the mistakes by the early pros in triathlon. It's just pointless since N=1,000,000 samples (or more by now) have proven that you can get to your best without running on tired legs.

A lot of guys will read, "Lionel Sanders does xyz and it worked for him so it must be fine for me". Well, Lionel Sanders gets to overcome a lot of things that just won't work for our average age grouper because Lionel's Vdot and W/kg are through the roof. Desertdude probably has something like 400 athlete-years of coaching under his belt, (maybe more, I am just guessing). I'd strongly recommend that you consider his input. No need to re invent the wheel and do what the pioneer pros back in the early 80's proved is sub optimal prep.

I think we all want you to succeed, and most of us who have been around for long enough and seen big engines, come, shine, shine really bright, but then burn out, implode and leave don't want to see that happening. Please consider what Desertdude is suggesting.

Dev
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"I've never had any issues running the first 1-2k off the bike in short races. By the time I get to T1 I'm hopped up on caffeine and race induced adrenaline that I pretty much smoke that first mile."

In HIMs, my biggest concern in the first mile was keeping the pace slow as perceived effort would have me going way too fast. I found that doing a 15' tempo run after a ride (I measured 1/4 mile intervals from my house) helped me to dial in RPE/pace. Plus, it was good to get a run in while already kitted up and practice transition.

Definitely don't feel like there was anything magical I gained about running off the bike though, and definitely not necessary.

I also experience an altered perceived effort, although it is the opposite in that I would think I'd be running faster than I actually was. I think it's due to the sudden change in body mechanics and extra impact that sucks extra oxygen from my lungs and makes less oxygen available to the muscles, resulting in a higher HR and perceived effort. I try to counter this by starting out smooth for the first few minutes with short strides.

Love to tri!
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Re: Running off the Bike in Training- Beneficial or Recipe for Injury [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think we will have to agree to disagree. Philosophically speaking, I believe that everyone is unique, the sample size is always N=1, one size does not fit all, nothing is ever proven, and any other way you can hash that same idea. I think a good program is guided by scientific reasoning, advice from sound sources, etc. but never dictated by it. While on the topic of philosophy, I believe much of this is in the mind anyway. Once you come even remotely near to your limits, any further gains will come from your mind. Thus, once you've reached a certain degree of proficiency, I'd say do more workouts that give you confidence and build mental strength. This will be your best shot at reaching your "limits."

http://www.lsanderstri.com
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