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lactate while swimming
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Hello,

I have done several measurements of lactate after swimming, and the results are fairly high !
I use a lactate pro 2 meter. I think I have got a correct method to get the blood drop since I have been playing around with the lactate pro 2 since a few months but never done it in the pool.

I have tested several pace, and even if I feel easy (1:57/100m, avg HR 108, 60% HRmax, during 1000 m continuous swim, RPE 2-3/10) my lactate is at 2.8 mmol/L and according to other tests, it's always > 2 even when going very slow. When i felt like being at 70.3 race pace around threshold, my lactate was 7 !
https://www.strava.com/activities/7374999032
https://www.strava.com/activities/6588118154


On the bike or running, my ceiling for zone 2 is around 200 watts and my HR is around 150 bpm while RPE is 4-5/10

My big question is, shall I setup my endurance training easier than 2:00/100 m to avoid fatiguing too much my arms and being fresher for the whole training ? does the 2 mmol/l limit still valuable in the pool compare to earth based exercises ?

Thanks a lot
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Re: lactate while swimming [nfkb] [ In reply to ]
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Do you take the blood sample from the finger or from the ear?

---
ASICS FrontRunner Denmark
Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri
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Re: lactate while swimming [Schmidt-DK] [ In reply to ]
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From the finger. I know a lot of swimmers do it from the ear, but I do this alone, by myself... so finger prick
Last edited by: nfkb: Jun 27, 22 2:22
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Re: lactate while swimming [nfkb] [ In reply to ]
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I can't get good readings from my finger when I'm swimming, something about taking the sample too close to the working muscles or something like that. But I still tend to have a bit higher lactate compared to my HR and RPE than biking and running.

---
ASICS FrontRunner Denmark
Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri
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Re: lactate while swimming [Schmidt-DK] [ In reply to ]
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ok thanks, actually I don't get a very good drop like I get during biking or running, I think it's because of vasoconstriction due to cold/immersion.

I will try to find someone to prick my ear someday... was the difference big for you though ?
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Re: lactate while swimming [nfkb] [ In reply to ]
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I thought about the same thing for longer "easier" distance sets. Started using fins, which helped me keep the effort very easy whole gliding a lot. Easy to do 1000 repeats while not using much energy. Problem is, it may make normal swimming feel a lot harder.
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Re: lactate while swimming [tri@thlete] [ In reply to ]
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thanks, have you the same conundrum as me measuring lactate ?
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Re: lactate while swimming [nfkb] [ In reply to ]
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This thread isn't at all what I was thinking it would be.
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Re: lactate while swimming [nfkb] [ In reply to ]
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Get the technique first and then worry about the metabolics. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Get the technique first and then worry about the metabolics. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Tim
+1
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Get the technique first and then worry about the metabolics. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Tim

Agree with this statement but also most people swim the first 75 m or 1 min too fast which will drive the lactate and it will stay there as a result.

need to learn to swim the exact pace, basically why amateur's must test on a cycle erg mode or treadmill they go way to hard and mess u the test.

Especially beginner swimmers go out way to fast for the first 50 m and then just struggle breathing the rest of the interval or swiim.

Someone will do a swim set of 400 m
100 m in 1:40
200 m at 3:40 ( sufffer)
300 m at 5:40 ( suffer)
400 m at 7:35 ( die) hold the wall for 3 minutes .

at the track you would never pace a mile like that, I HOPE.

vs a 1:50, 1:50: 1:50 1:50 / 7:20 rest for 2 min and repeat.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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There isn't a triathlete racing (pro or otherwise) who should be worried about lactate testing in swimming.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: lactate while swimming [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
This thread isn't at all what I was thinking it would be.

Yeah I thought it was impressive pregnant ladies were swim training. Then opened the thread and - oh.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: lactate while swimming [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:

..........most people swim the first 75 m or 1 min too fast which will drive the lactate and it will stay there as a result.

need to learn to swim the exact pace,

The lactate levels will drop bc the athlete will be forced to slow down below threshold allowing clearance. Most people, if you plotted out each 100m of their swim in a tri, will swim a U shaped curve with the fastest bits being at the beginning and end while the middle is below where they need to be and below threshold.

Even if they go out too hard, increase lactate to whatever mmol, they are going to slow down for the simple fact they started at an effort/pace they can not sustain for the duration. As they go under threshold they will be able to clear lactate. It's not going to stay the same. Now will they swim as fast as a properly paced swim? Probably not. At some point you have to pay the physiology piper back when you borrow from it.

Triathletetoth wrote:
basically why amateur's must test on a cycle erg mode or treadmill they go way to hard and mess u the test.

You are wrong on this. Amateurs can test outside and many can test without messing it up. If they mess up the test you're still getting actionable data that you can apply to them, they get a great learning experience on what not to do and they won't be less fit because they messed up.

Sure the numbers may be off, especially if it's one of the short tests that are so in vogue, but I'd also argue that if you're using one test to set power or pacing you're doing it wrong.

(I'd also argue that a lot of the short tests provide data that is erroneous to begin with. That's a different thread probably)

Brian Stover
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Last edited by: desert dude: Jun 27, 22 12:14
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Re: lactate while swimming [FSEng_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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FSEng_Tri wrote:
SnappingT wrote:
Get the technique first and then worry about the metabolics. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Tim

+1

+2. Especially if you are swimming 1:57/100m paces.
Last edited by: piratetri: Jun 27, 22 12:30
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Re: lactate while swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I am pretty sure you are wrong since I have latacte data on 100 's of atheltes since 2009. once you go too fast your lactate will not come down if you "keep moving". By your logic the faster people start the lower there lactate would be at the end of exhaustion???

If someone runs a 1600 m at 1:45, 1:45 , 1:45 1;45 and is 2.0 mmol

then does the first lap1:15 the 1:45 1:45 1:45 we will not see a 1:45 lalctate number near 2.0 but over 4.0 mmol, this is my the first mile for your Ironman run should never be your fastest.

It will not come down unless you stop or go so slow. sub 1.0 mmol.

all this testing is so 2000-2022 were I come from. but a few guys do a quick test o YouTube ad everyone is an expert.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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sorry what I should have said is you are misreporting pace with effort!!!

just because someone is slowing does't mean their lactate is reducing for beginners swimmers they are actually producing more lactate with faster ,stronger muscles activation that doesn't lead to a faster swim pace.

We see this all the time as begginer move so many more muscle and add more force to water that doesn't create speed but just effort.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I agree about regular testing but adult onset swimmers / beginners don't understand swimming like us.

So if you ca do one test or one pace set to show them stop making swimming suffering. It can lead to much better short term and long term results.

we use power on the bike to pace a hill better, swimming should be the same and learning that in one way or another is important.

I have stopped giving lactate tests at the pool as everyone goes way to fast to start like it's a race, so number are unless. but good swimmers can learn to pace back a bit and not hate the fact you are always sucking arm, but keep the focus on arm load and body position rather then get air get air get air....

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
So if you ca do one test or one pace set to show them stop making swimming suffering. It can lead to much better short term and long term results.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but I don't know how you get better in swimming without some suffering. That's why, especially for beginners but really any triathlete, don't worry about any of the lactate testing. If this is just another way of saying that you should swim slower to go faster, then we don't understand swimming in the same way.

The other thing I would point out is swimming is a much larger skill than either biking and running efficiently. The "metabolics" are really just a by-product of training that skill and not the primary thing you are training, although it really applies to biking and running too only slightly different.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I agree the skill part. But how is harder swimming making you faster???

Do you chop down more trees swinging the wrong end of the axe??? you sure are working harder. people at the back on the race work way way harder then people at the front.


"The "metabolics" are really just a by-product of training that skill and not the primary thing you are training, although it really applies to biking and running too only slightly different." YES

You don't need to use this tool. You do you.

others can use this if it helps them,

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
There isn't a triathlete racing (pro or otherwise) who should be worried about lactate testing in swimming.

I would like to hear additional detail behind your reasoning on this. For a strong swimmer who swims 25 min and 50 min for a 70.3/IM and is finishing in the top 5% overall or less, you don’t think there is any value to at least checking some lactate data on the swim?

blog
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Re: lactate while swimming [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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It’s all good. No worries. But I think this is where the triathlon community struggles the most with improving the swim.

For our discussion We should clarify some terms so we can understand what we are both talking about. When I say “hard,” I mean fast and uncomfortable swimming. And “fast” means executing the best possible technique at the edge of your ability or just past it and holding that for as long as possible. That’s the best way to improve a skill in the brain and nervous system while building the strength and conditioning needed to hold the technique at that speed.

I hope this helps,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: lactate while swimming [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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The first place you want to start is putting it into context. Yes, a 25 minute 1.2 mile swim and 50 min 2.4 mile swim are very fast swims for triathlon. In the larger context of swimming they are slow. If you look at the National motivation time standards from USA Swimming, the Quad-A time for a 13-14 boy for a 1000 is 10:00.89. For 13-14 girls it’s 10:39.49. There are faster standards for 15-16 and 17-18.

You can see the whole list here: https://www.usaswimming.org/...roups-2024-agmts.pdf[/url]

Those are fast swimmers, but they are kids.

It just means that with very fast triathletes there is still a lot of low hanging fruit.

Then from the training perspective if you are constructing the training around lactate, you emphasis is in the wrong place. The only way to improve that coordinated, neuro-muscular movement is to swim fast - lactate be damned. The metabolics aren’t more important than the movement and strength and conditioning specific to the water to support that movement.

I hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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why does hard mean fast too you???

that makes no sense to me, my very easy is someone else very hard a the same speed, even for top level swimmers ( e.g the sub 7/8 the lead swimmer easy was the slow swimmers hard ad they are all in the top swim % of top 1% in the world).

I agree improvements can only be made with technique but if a beginner starts every interval over their threshold after 40 sec they have no awareness for skill, positioning, timing etc. It just becomes survive.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: lactate while swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
There isn't a triathlete racing (pro or otherwise) who should be worried about lactate testing in swimming.

Hello,

a bit of background, I am MD in anesthesiology/critical care, so it's a bit of second nature for me to poke with needles and analyse physiology.
I have started triathlon around 2015, learnt basic freestyle to survive triathlons. I can enjoy swimming but I will never be a swimmer, I cannot go 4-5 times a week to the pool, that's just not doable. I have to deal with the few hours I have to enjoy my sport the way I like it :)

Since I have interest in human physiology, I have not waited for You Tube videos to think about metabolism in sports. Lactate measurement is one tool to question my practice and learn. I get the fact that the big picture is more important than a tiny detail,. You might think that I am lost in a fad with lactate testing, but I think that I am not in this position. I find that lactate testing can be interesting even for the mere amateur. Lactate testing has taught me that I have a bigger space than I thought to work endurance on the run and on the bike. I had the tendency to do some easy work too easy. It might not be the most usual mistake, but I can tell you than doing lactate testing, I have discovered that I could sustain higher wattage during endurance rides.

For the swim, it might be the other way around. Because of my lack of "arm & back" muscular endurance, I might overflow the system with lactate which shuts off lipolysis and builds fatigue quicker. My RPE might be a little bit skewed while swimming. Even if I feel easy (and remember my HR was 60% HRmax), I maybe should go slower, thats why I find lactate testing interesting.

Then we can go on the "learn swim technique" debate. I have no triathlon coach who can teach me from the deck. I have to deal with my environment. Masters swimming is not triathlon swimming and I just cannot go with this kind of people since it's highly competitive and I have not enough time to allocate. I could also watch hundred of swimming videos, but again I find that it's super hard to progress when you learn to swim around 40 yo. At some point I can train to have enough endurance to deal with IM distance (done it in 1h05) but I think I do not have a lot of room to get better at swimming with my actual life. And I'm ok with that. On another side, I see people lost with technique, doing a new drill every 50 meter and I am not sure that's effective.

Is there people who have followed Lionel Sanders Discords on this ? (I didn't)

cheers
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