Do you take the blood sample from the finger or from the ear?

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Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri

From the finger. I know a lot of swimmers do it from the ear, but I do this alone, by myself... so finger prick

I can't get good readings from my finger when I'm swimming, something about taking the sample too close to the working muscles or something like that. But I still tend to have a bit higher lactate compared to my HR and RPE than biking and running.

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Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri

ok thanks, actually I don't get a very good drop like I get during biking or running, I think it's because of vasoconstriction due to cold/immersion.

I will try to find someone to prick my ear someday... was the difference big for you though ?

I thought about the same thing for longer "easier" distance sets. Started using fins, which helped me keep the effort very easy whole gliding a lot. Easy to do 1000 repeats while not using much energy. Problem is, it may make normal swimming feel a lot harder.

thanks, have you the same conundrum as me measuring lactate ?

This thread isn't at all what I was thinking it would be.

Get the technique first and then worry about the metabolics. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

+1

Agree with this statement but also most people swim the first 75 m or 1 min too fast which will drive the lactate and it will stay there as a result.

need to learn to swim the exact pace, basically why amateur's must test on a cycle erg mode or treadmill they go way to hard and mess u the test.

Especially beginner swimmers go out way to fast for the first 50 m and then just struggle breathing the rest of the interval or swiim.

Someone will do a swim set of 400 m
100 m in 1:40
200 m at 3:40 ( sufffer)
300 m at 5:40 ( suffer)
400 m at 7:35 ( die) hold the wall for 3 minutes .

at the track you would never pace a mile like that, I HOPE.

vs a 1:50, 1:50: 1:50 1:50 / 7:20 rest for 2 min and repeat.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

There isn't a triathlete racing (pro or otherwise) who should be worried about lactate testing in swimming.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yeah I thought it was impressive pregnant ladies were swim training. Then opened the thread and - oh.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

The lactate levels will drop bc the athlete will be forced to slow down below threshold allowing clearance. Most people, if you plotted out each 100m of their swim in a tri, will swim a U shaped curve with the fastest bits being at the beginning and end while the middle is below where they need to be and below threshold.

Even if they go out too hard, increase lactate to whatever mmol, they are going to slow down for the simple fact they started at an effort/pace they can not sustain for the duration. As they go under threshold they will be able to clear lactate. It's not going to stay the same. Now will they swim as fast as a properly paced swim? Probably not. At some point you have to pay the physiology piper back when you borrow from it.


You are wrong on this. Amateurs can test outside and many can test without messing it up. If they mess up the test you're still getting actionable data that you can apply to them, they get a great learning experience on what not to do and they won't be less fit because they messed up.

Sure the numbers may be off, especially if it's one of the short tests that are so in vogue, but I'd also argue that if you're using one test to set power or pacing you're doing it wrong.

(I'd also argue that a lot of the short tests provide data that is erroneous to begin with. That's a different thread probably)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

+2. Especially if you are swimming 1:57/100m paces.

I am pretty sure you are wrong since I have latacte data on 100 's of atheltes since 2009. once you go too fast your lactate will not come down if you "keep moving". By your logic the faster people start the lower there lactate would be at the end of exhaustion???

If someone runs a 1600 m at 1:45, 1:45 , 1:45 1;45 and is 2.0 mmol

then does the first lap1:15 the 1:45 1:45 1:45 we will not see a 1:45 lalctate number near 2.0 but over 4.0 mmol, this is my the first mile for your Ironman run should never be your fastest.

It will not come down unless you stop or go so slow. sub 1.0 mmol.

all this testing is so 2000-2022 were I come from. but a few guys do a quick test o YouTube ad everyone is an expert.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

sorry what I should have said is you are misreporting pace with effort!!!

just because someone is slowing does't mean their lactate is reducing for beginners swimmers they are actually producing more lactate with faster ,stronger muscles activation that doesn't lead to a faster swim pace.

We see this all the time as begginer move so many more muscle and add more force to water that doesn't create speed but just effort.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I agree about regular testing but adult onset swimmers / beginners don't understand swimming like us.

So if you ca do one test or one pace set to show them stop making swimming suffering. It can lead to much better short term and long term results.

we use power on the bike to pace a hill better, swimming should be the same and learning that in one way or another is important.

I have stopped giving lactate tests at the pool as everyone goes way to fast to start like it's a race, so number are unless. but good swimmers can learn to pace back a bit and not hate the fact you are always sucking arm, but keep the focus on arm load and body position rather then get air get air get air....

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but I don't know how you get better in swimming without some suffering. That's why, especially for beginners but really any triathlete, don't worry about any of the lactate testing. If this is just another way of saying that you should swim slower to go faster, then we don't understand swimming in the same way.

The other thing I would point out is swimming is a much larger skill than either biking and running efficiently. The "metabolics" are really just a by-product of training that skill and not the primary thing you are training, although it really applies to biking and running too only slightly different.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I agree the skill part. But how is harder swimming making you faster???

Do you chop down more trees swinging the wrong end of the axe??? you sure are working harder. people at the back on the race work way way harder then people at the front.


"The "metabolics" are really just a by-product of training that skill and not the primary thing you are training, although it really applies to biking and running too only slightly different." YES

You don't need to use this tool. You do you.

others can use this if it helps them,

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I would like to hear additional detail behind your reasoning on this. For a strong swimmer who swims 25 min and 50 min for a 70.3/IM and is finishing in the top 5% overall or less, you don’t think there is any value to at least checking some lactate data on the swim?

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blog

It’s all good. No worries. But I think this is where the triathlon community struggles the most with improving the swim.

For our discussion We should clarify some terms so we can understand what we are both talking about. When I say “hard,” I mean fast and uncomfortable swimming. And “fast” means executing the best possible technique at the edge of your ability or just past it and holding that for as long as possible. That’s the best way to improve a skill in the brain and nervous system while building the strength and conditioning needed to hold the technique at that speed.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

The first place you want to start is putting it into context. Yes, a 25 minute 1.2 mile swim and 50 min 2.4 mile swim are very fast swims for triathlon. In the larger context of swimming they are slow. If you look at the National motivation time standards from USA Swimming, the Quad-A time for a 13-14 boy for a 1000 is 10:00.89. For 13-14 girls it’s 10:39.49. There are faster standards for 15-16 and 17-18.

You can see the whole list here: https://www.usaswimming.org/...roups-2024-agmts.pdf[/url]

Those are fast swimmers, but they are kids.

It just means that with very fast triathletes there is still a lot of low hanging fruit.

Then from the training perspective if you are constructing the training around lactate, you emphasis is in the wrong place. The only way to improve that coordinated, neuro-muscular movement is to swim fast - lactate be damned. The metabolics aren’t more important than the movement and strength and conditioning specific to the water to support that movement.

I hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

why does hard mean fast too you???

that makes no sense to me, my very easy is someone else very hard a the same speed, even for top level swimmers ( e.g the sub 7/8 the lead swimmer easy was the slow swimmers hard ad they are all in the top swim % of top 1% in the world).

I agree improvements can only be made with technique but if a beginner starts every interval over their threshold after 40 sec they have no awareness for skill, positioning, timing etc. It just becomes survive.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Hello,

a bit of background, I am MD in anesthesiology/critical care, so it's a bit of second nature for me to poke with needles and analyse physiology.
I have started triathlon around 2015, learnt basic freestyle to survive triathlons. I can enjoy swimming but I will never be a swimmer, I cannot go 4-5 times a week to the pool, that's just not doable. I have to deal with the few hours I have to enjoy my sport the way I like it :)

Since I have interest in human physiology, I have not waited for You Tube videos to think about metabolism in sports. Lactate measurement is one tool to question my practice and learn. I get the fact that the big picture is more important than a tiny detail,. You might think that I am lost in a fad with lactate testing, but I think that I am not in this position. I find that lactate testing can be interesting even for the mere amateur. Lactate testing has taught me that I have a bigger space than I thought to work endurance on the run and on the bike. I had the tendency to do some easy work too easy. It might not be the most usual mistake, but I can tell you than doing lactate testing, I have discovered that I could sustain higher wattage during endurance rides.

For the swim, it might be the other way around. Because of my lack of "arm & back" muscular endurance, I might overflow the system with lactate which shuts off lipolysis and builds fatigue quicker. My RPE might be a little bit skewed while swimming. Even if I feel easy (and remember my HR was 60% HRmax), I maybe should go slower, thats why I find lactate testing interesting.

Then we can go on the "learn swim technique" debate. I have no triathlon coach who can teach me from the deck. I have to deal with my environment. Masters swimming is not triathlon swimming and I just cannot go with this kind of people since it's highly competitive and I have not enough time to allocate. I could also watch hundred of swimming videos, but again I find that it's super hard to progress when you learn to swim around 40 yo. At some point I can train to have enough endurance to deal with IM distance (done it in 1h05) but I think I do not have a lot of room to get better at swimming with my actual life. And I'm ok with that. On another side, I see people lost with technique, doing a new drill every 50 meter and I am not sure that's effective.

Is there people who have followed Lionel Sanders Discords on this ? (I didn't)

cheers

I agree the skill part. But how is harder swimming making you faster???

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Swimming harder will make you a far better swimmer than testing your lactate. As per Tim's definition of hard, if you want to go faster, you have to push your muscles. Repeat. In doing so, your muscles adapt. And, if you're paying attention, you make tiny adjustments to your technique along the way which should, in theory and in practice, make you even faster. Your arms will tell you that you're making lactate without the need for testing. And knowing your lactate number does nothing for a swimmer mid-set. It's not actionable data.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I am a former college swimmer and grew up swimming competitively. So I understand where you are coming from. For most triathletes, yes there are a lot of low hanging fruit to be gained and a lactate meter is probably not for them. But for a triathlete who's been a swimmer their entire life, I would disagree on the low hanging fruit. I will never be as fast as I was 15-20 years ago. I swim 3x a week (~12k/week) and the amount of time I would have to put in to maybe gain 30-60 seconds in a 70.3 or IM swim is just not worth the time. That time is better invested on the bike/run where I could gain even more time. My current swims are pretty hard cause as a swimmer, that's all I've known for decades. But swimmers don't have to bike and run afterward. As a triathlete, I'm not trying to have the fastest swim, I'm trying to have the fastest swim using the least amount of energy to optimize the bike/run. I have a lactate meter and I have been surprised on the value it has provided me on the bike/run. I haven't used it during a swim session mostly because I initially had your same thoughts. But in the last few weeks, I have started to wonder what my lactate readings would be during certain swim intervals. Perhaps this could help me determine if I'm swimming too hard in races and burning too many matches that I can't fully optimize my bike/run fitness. Maybe there's an opportunity to prescribe certain sets to help shift the lactate curve to the right and be more metabolically efficient.

I think swimmers (current, former, etc) have tremendous lactate tolerance as that's how you train and race as a competitive pool swimmer. But is that the best thing to do for a long course triathlete who has another 8 hours of racing after the swim?

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blog

IMHO it's actionnable since I can do the easy sets easier to build endurance (better lipid oxidation and lactate shuttling). This does not impede from still doing tempo sets at race pace and "sprints".
For sure, we could infere this without a lactate pro 2 device, but I have got one, I find interesting to use it and have an open mind approach with its usage. Hence my question at the start of this thread. Since I am quite surprised with the results, I was wondering if I was doing something wrong or it his kind of results have been seen elsewhere in a similar context. That's why I ask on the larger triathlon forum i know.

Thanks

ah thank you ! I feel less silly

Swimming at speed develops efficient technique (over time) in ways that slower swimming won't. Those who don't swim as frequently as perhaps they should need MORE swimming at speed. All the above said, AOS or kid swimmer, some people just "get" it, and some don't. Most everybody is somewhere in the middle.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

You and I have similar backgrounds. I swam in college and competitively growing up too. I don’t know how old you are or when you grew up swimming, but if you are older than about 35 you could be faster than you were in your college years. Now, you wouldn’t be a triathlete any longer but you could be faster.

I wouldn’t make an argument that you as a former college swimmer should swim more than 3x a week. But most triathletes aren’t former college swimmers.

In my experience working as a coach for 30 years and almost exclusively with triathletes for the last 12 years, you would find the biggest gains with more time in the weight room. Depending on what type of swimmer you were in college, you would also do well with a race paced approach to your training which would drive more efficiency in your stroke especially if you used a range of equipment to constrain specific parts of your stroke.

And the reason I’m arguing against the use of lactate testing is for a number of reasons. First, it takes the focus off where it should be which isn’t the “metabolics” but the movement and how to learn the skill. To be clear, I’m not arguing against understanding the “metabolics.” I’m arguing it shouldn’t be the primary focus when in reality it’s a by-product of learning the skill. That skill largely resides in the brain and nervous system and not the lactate. Second, triathletes rely on technology too much to figure out what their brain and body are telling them. They should be developing the skill of listening to those internal signals. Lastly, it’s a distraction. There are a lot more efficient ways to find efficiency than bringing lactate testing into the training.

To answer your question, efficiency is efficiency. The real question is how to construct the most efficient program at getting efficiency in the context of training for a long course triathlon. In my experience, for the swim, the triathlon community still struggles with that piece of the puzzle.

Hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Problem with a lactate meter is the complexity. A pace clock in the pool, a power meter on the bike, and RPE for all three can get you to the same place, and IMO this strategy is far more useful for race day.

Tim - I really appreciate your reply and insight.

I turn 36 this week. I was a mid/distance freestyler and backstroker in college. My bread and butter was the 500 & 200 back. I should have been a great miler but for some reason, I could never put together a solid mile when I needed to.

I fully agree with you that it should be more about the movement in the water. Lactate is a byproduct and shouldn't be the primary driver for anyone (similar to hr). Swimming is much more technical than biking/running and efficiency becomes a much bigger driver to success. Even for someone that has been swimming since age 5, I'm constantly thinking about my stroke and being more efficient.

I think your reasoning for not recommending a lactate meter is VERY sound and I agree those are all con's to a meter. However, I think there COULD be valuable data from getting lactate numbers IF and ONLY IF you approach it with the right mindset. I would not condone testing during every session or even on a weekly basis. Like you said, too many people rely on technology. Maybe like once every 6 weeks or before/after a build phase of one's training. You will still have to be careful with this data as it may not give you the results you are expecting or want to see. If one's body/mind is saying one thing but a lactate meter is saying another, I would tend to go with the body/mind. As with any data, you have to take a step back and look at things from a macro level (it's not all about the data). There are times when you need to listen to it and times when you need to throw it out the window. It takes a special kind of athlete and/or a good coach to make those decisions.

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blog

This look like a lot of rest compared to my habits. What is your idea behind a 2 min rest ? We almost never run easy for 8 min and get 2 min.

you can't feel lactate you feel tension at the end of an ironman running the last hours so slow most would have a very low lactate espically with all the walking but feel high muscle tension. It's different. In swimming especially you don't push with muscle force you direct movement. most strong guys have to learn not to use so much muscle forceor they just pull through water...... etc etc etc. it's why a 10 year old girl can swim faster then 90% of ironman racers, it's skill not muscle force.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

That was just an example but if you think a 1:50 per 400 m is easy pace for most Ironman triathletes then why are so many run times over 3:12 marathon pace????

I am pretty sure at a random north American triathlon 90 % of the field could not complete 6 x 1 mile at 7:20 leave on o 9:20 without lactate exciding training goals.

You should rest 2 min btw a hard set to recovery to preform again. Or else you will not have enough recovery to do more intervals at the proper pace over and over again without a large build up of fatigue.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

1) strips are too expensive and it hurts too much my finger tips to do it regularly ! My idea after my last test was to get an idea of an upper swimming for easy swims.
2) Of course we need to ditch some data, that's why I asked if a high lactate for easy RPE is common in casual swimmers (I deal with artifacts and physiology all the day long at my job)
3) I know it might sound frustrating for coaches and I know the value of a good coach, but it's not available worldwide as it might be in the US for example. I have travel to take my first swim lessons since no triathlon coach or swim coach suited to learn to swim as an adult was available in my area.

The issue is that with triathlon you have to train for three sports and spending say 4x 30 min (excluding warmup) a week at 5mmol will drive most people, but mainly fast twitch fiber dominant athletes, and those without high lacatate tolerance, right into overtraining. Additionally if all you do is swim at this intensity you will start the bike leg of your Ironman at -800 kcal of glycogen right of the bat. IM is about being strategic with endogenous fuel and one can't ignore metabolics. At the AG level you are much better off losing 5 mins on the swim and save 400kcal of glycogen. Unless you are into walking the marathon.

And let's be reasonnable and not mention swimming being a low impact sport. I am talking about CNS fatigue.

1) sorry I don"t get the comparison of 1:50/100m with the run. How do you rank the 1:50/100m pace in mid pack athlete ?
2) did you mean 6x400m in the pool on 7:20 leaving at 9:20 ?

Thank you

I am comparing swimming to running because in running we use gps or the track with time to see we are going out to fast, the pool this feedback isn't avaible till it's to late too adjust.

For e.g. ask a begginer swimmer to do a hard 100 m set and the splits are 20 sec, 25 sec, 30 sec, 32 sec per 25 m, there first 25 m was 66% faster then there last yup felt the hardest.

again the run to pool is a 4/1 ratio so 400 m in the pool at those 7:20 land time take off at 9:20 would be the same as doing a mile at the track.

As you mentioned you are worried if you swim too fast it will tire your arm. SO LACTATE build up doesn't occur with a feeling or burning or tired muscles. It is a muscle contraction by produce the oly way to get it lower is to lost wt, ( which doesn't help swimming) or use less overall muscle contraction to move at the same speed of faster ( SKILL) . To swim faster you need to reduce resistance #1 less movement in trunk, head and leg space. Increase front arm wt load without more muscle strain, ( reaching , pulling, over tensing). And finally getting better rythm with lung timing to never hold a breath or hurry a breath to match stroke speed. if you need not get to a breath quicker so move more per length then you have a higher muscle contraction rate which will always increase a lactate response. 25 stroke in 25 sec for 25 m , vs 23 stroke in 25 sec for 25m. ok, good luck work or skill, ignore lactate in the pool if you swim better Lactate is less, if you do ever set starting fast and getting slower you are pacing above threshold.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter