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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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HardlyTrying wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
HardlyTrying wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
I have been using Generation Ucan. It works and I like you don't get the same peaks and troughs as you


Ucan is corn starch. It's a carb. Volek has a financial interest in it and they've decided to market it to low-carb people for some reason. But according to the studies they advertise, it doesn't actually do anything.

Yes I know it is a carb but lower GI hence I don't get the peaks and troughs as I stated and why they market it to low carb people... You still need carbs to race but the lower GI the better.

I've used it. I suspect it's just fine although it may not be any better than plain corn starch or any other slow carb.

I find it kinda funny that they advertise what it doesn't do. It doesn't spike glucose. You know what else doesn't spike glucose? Water. They show a graph of blood glucose over time with Ucan and maltodextrin. I'd be curious to see the control of the experiment where they show blood glucose of those who had water and perhaps another treatment where they had a different slow carb. If the Ucan line stays above the water and other carb lines, then they may have something.

But a better approach might be, and it's the approach of ~every top endurance athlete including those who train low-carb, is to keep adding sugar and keep that glucose peak up there. I heard this expert dude on scienceofultra and he said don't take slow carbs but rather use fast carbs slowly.

Again, Ucan is probably fine. Unique marketing strategy to market it as the carb for low-carb people.
After having gut issues several years ago my nutritionist put me on to Ucan and a LCHF diet several years ago and the same philosophy I discovered Dan Plews follows recently. It works for me and I don't care about your studies, I am just responding to the OP as he was seeking help.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QHTRN5VkAg
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
I set a PR in my 5k, 10k and open HM landing in the 18:ss on the 5k. Set a PR in my local Sprint Triathlon race on just water. My longer event PRs have already been posted.
I am one of those who has a gluten sensitivity that made my family avoid me because of stomach "issues". I also had blood sugar issues that dropped, glucose around 32 with meter, every 2-3 weeks. I would lay on the ground with blurry vision and irregular heartbeat until somebody got me lots of sugar or I shoved gels into my system. I just dealt with it because that was normal to me. The doctors just told me to carry a Glucose gel pack and we kept them in the first aid kit at work. I carried several gels during runs no matter how short they were. All that is gone now. I don't need a scientific study to tell me this works for me.

My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

I love how discussions with people pro LCHF, anti vaccine and flatlanders always end up with solid arguments. How is it relevant what your times are? For comparison I have been running for less than a year after I was in a wheel chair (on a high carb diet) and I can run sub 18 in training, I did a 37.30 10k during an olympic race last week on water only (because I forgot my gels which BTW would have aided me, not slowed me down).

In your book, is this a solid argument for a high carb diet? In my book it is not. We have research for a reason; to keep peoples feelings/experiences out of it.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are getting it wrong here. What flat Landers are saying is that one size does not fit all. Not that LCHF is best for everyone.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
I think you are getting it wrong here. What flat Landers are saying is that one size does not fit all. Not that LCHF is best for everyone.

Nope. Flatlanders are saying that the earth is flat. What Timr used as an argument was his own experience, which is not a valid argument in any debate regarding science.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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So if a paper says it's not good then my results with it are not valid? Do you know how many things in life work great on paper but don't work well in practice? Do you see the obesity and health problems in the US right now? Do you see medical centers being built on every corner to capitalize on the problem? Do you notice health Care cost rising and small companies not being able to offer Health insurance to their employees because of the high cost? I couldn't perform eating the standard American diet. When I switched to LCHF I can now perform and feel better. I was showing you the facts of my life. I could have just did, "I am faster now" but what does that mean without showing before and after results? I improved on LCHF, not just in performance but my quality of life. Mentally and emotionally I have also improved. It has been very dramatic welcome change to my family and friends.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Timr - any chance you can give us an SFuels promo code to give the product a try?

tinman
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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It seems you are not able to understand your own analogies with the flat landers. There is absolutely no science that can prove that one size fits all diet exists. His anecdotal evidence is proof of this, although it wasn't even required, as it is quite obvious. What I am saying is he nor anybody else in this thread that I can think of is claiming that that anecdotal evidence can be extrapolated.

Furthermore, what you call science is so biased by commercial and other spurious interests that I hardly take it seriously, or at the minimum with a grain of salt. At least in fields so variable as nutrition and exercise.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
So if a paper says it's not good then my results with it are not valid? Do you know how many things in life work great on paper but don't work well in practice? Do you see the obesity and health problems in the US right now? Do you see medical centers being built on every corner to capitalize on the problem? Do you notice health Care cost rising and small companies not being able to offer Health insurance to their employees because of the high cost? I couldn't perform eating the standard American diet. When I switched to LCHF I can now perform and feel better. I was showing you the facts of my life. I could have just did, "I am faster now" but what does that mean without showing before and after results? I improved on LCHF, not just in performance but my quality of life. Mentally and emotionally I have also improved. It has been very dramatic welcome change to my family and friends.

Your results are not an argument for LCHF. That is not the same as it did not work for you. I don't know why you are dragging other factors in, such as the medical centres being built, so I am not going to address that. The discussion was whether your claimed results are an argument for LCHF. Which parameters do you have to show your alleged enhance in performance? At your level you would get better almost regardless of diet. How can you know that it was LCHF that did it and not say weight loss (which is a product of calorie deficit, not carbohydrate deficit btw)? And how can you know that LCHF was better than any other diet? This is where science comes in, because then we can exclude confirmation bias.

I don't know what a standard American diet is, but please enlighten me. If you refer to what Americans are actually eating, I think pretty much everything is better.

That your quality of life has improved is great. But once again there are too many parameters to give all the credit to LCHF. Or do you think there is a magic number of carbs during a day that would work as a miracle diet? What is that number? 5g?50g? Does it depend on size?
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
It seems you are not able to understand your own analogies with the flat landers. There is absolutely no science that can prove that one size fits all diet exists. His anecdotal evidence is proof of this, although it wasn't even required, as it is quite obvious. What I am saying is he nor anybody else in this thread that I can think of is claiming that that anecdotal evidence can be extrapolated.

Furthermore, what you call science is so biased by commercial and other spurious interests that I hardly take it seriously, or at the minimum with a grain of salt. At least in fields so variable as nutrition and exercise.

Neither have I said there is? But if anecdotical evidence is enough to convince you, why aren't you drinking your own urine? Google it and please come back to me.

If anecdotical evidence is proof for you, but actual science is biased, I think it will be hard to discuss the matter :)
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

Exact same story for my sister. Except replace "keto" with "vegan".
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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You keep thinking in black or white. What I am saying is there is no black or white when it comes to nutrition. There is zero anecdotal evidence that drinking urine is good for me. I googled and failed to find it. I will repeat it again. my conditions are different to yours (primarily age and genetics, but also environmental conditions) and drinking urine maybe good for you and bad for me (I would have to try first before I can attest) just as much as LCHF might be good for me and bad for you. In fact all LCHF literature I have read clearly says that it is probably not adequate for around 25% of the population, and that the suitability increases as you age.

In addition, I think you and many people around here fail to understand the limits of science. A research paper documenting a study conducted with a small population group proves very little, other than the result is applicable to that population group. Specially in things like nutrition where it is impossible to control most of the variables. Conduct the same study with a completely different population group and the results might be completely different. Hell even anecdotal evidence proving the contrary of one of those studies will invalidate the results of the study as a universal theory.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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HardlyTrying wrote:
timr wrote:
My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.


Exact same story for my sister. Except replace "keto" with "vegan".

And the thing those both have in common is "slow carb". You can have plenty of simple sugars as long as you don't have enough at once to cause the big spike in blood sugar. If you chug a bottle of gatorade, you get a far difference reaction than if you drip it by sipping on it over an hour.

I switched my fueling to sipping on sugary drink every 5 minutes and I can get in plenty of carbs without ever getting the high and crash of chugging big mouthfuls every 20 minutes.

If you took that UCAN test and had the athletes sip on their sugar fuel over an hour, the response line would not only look like UCAN's, it would probably look even better.

You can slow carbs down in your daily diet with fat, fiber, and time.

I'm doing long rides at 260 watts (about 23 mph for me) on around 150 cals of gatorade per hour, but taking a sip of it every 5 minutes. No energy fades, no problems whatsoever. You don't have to avoid simple sugars, just quit delivering them to your bloodstream like a dump truck.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
timr wrote:
I set a PR in my 5k, 10k and open HM landing in the 18:ss on the 5k. Set a PR in my local Sprint Triathlon race on just water. My longer event PRs have already been posted.
I am one of those who has a gluten sensitivity that made my family avoid me because of stomach "issues". I also had blood sugar issues that dropped, glucose around 32 with meter, every 2-3 weeks. I would lay on the ground with blurry vision and irregular heartbeat until somebody got me lots of sugar or I shoved gels into my system. I just dealt with it because that was normal to me. The doctors just told me to carry a Glucose gel pack and we kept them in the first aid kit at work. I carried several gels during runs no matter how short they were. All that is gone now. I don't need a scientific study to tell me this works for me.

My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

I love how discussions with people pro LCHF, anti vaccine and flatlanders always end up with solid arguments. How is it relevant what your times are? For comparison I have been running for less than a year after I was in a wheel chair (on a high carb diet) and I can run sub 18 in training, I did a 37.30 10k during an olympic race last week on water only (because I forgot my gels which BTW would have aided me, not slowed me down).

In your book, is this a solid argument for a high carb diet? In my book it is not. We have research for a reason; to keep peoples feelings/experiences out of it.

It does matter. Lots of slow pokes can give advice. If you want to go fast, do what the majority of what fast folk do.

HardlyTrying wrote:
timr wrote:
My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

Exact same story for my sister. Except replace "keto" with "vegan".

You can be keto and vegan at the same time. Fir some reason people misinterpret keto as carnivorian
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Re: keto and endurance racing [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:

You can be keto and vegan at the same time. Fir some reason people misinterpret keto as carnivorian

I know of a vegan, keto, Type 1, runner, neurosurgeon. She has great results. Someone better tell her she needs to eat more carbs.....
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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Question for you then, for someone in a study given a placebo, and they say it worked (studies now placebo works much more for millennial generation), then using your logic, since a placebo worked for them, it proves their individual experience, so its valid, correct?
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
You keep thinking in black or white. What I am saying is there is no black or white when it comes to nutrition. There is zero anecdotal evidence that drinking urine is good for me. I googled and failed to find it. I will repeat it again. my conditions are different to yours (primarily age and genetics, but also environmental conditions) and drinking urine maybe good for you and bad for me (I would have to try first before I can attest) just as much as LCHF might be good for me and bad for you. In fact all LCHF literature I have read clearly says that it is probably not adequate for around 25% of the population, and that the suitability increases as you age.

In addition, I think you and many people around here fail to understand the limits of science. A research paper documenting a study conducted with a small population group proves very little, other than the result is applicable to that population group. Specially in things like nutrition where it is impossible to control most of the variables. Conduct the same study with a completely different population group and the results might be completely different. Hell even anecdotal evidence proving the contrary of one of those studies will invalidate the results of the study as a universal theory.


Once again you are wrong. Some things are black and white, which otherwise would have been at odds with the laws of physics. For instance, a popular statement in LCHF-communities is that you won't gain weight if you don't eat carbs. This is wrong, regardless of how many LCHF books you read stating that it is true. This is why we have science, to falsify a hypothesis.

And science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would have stopped. One study doesn't say much, but replicating a study, with different people from different places and obtaining the same results again and again indicates a certain correlation. Continuing this process over time then gives us reason to believe that some things are more right than others. The alternative would be to start from the end result, work with ad hoc explanations every time those irritating science geeks come up with seemingly good arguments, accept that the theory doesn't hold water, come up with a number of people for which the theory works /does not work, say 25% of the population, without basing it on anything other than what the author seems to think is a plausible number, and shut down every time someone comes up with results that contradict your theory.

Oh, and last but not least: Third search on google using "drink my own pee",


"Is drinking urine good for you?

Reports dating back to ancient Rome, Greece, and Egypt suggest that urine therapy has been used to treat everything from acne to cancer. There was a time when doctors tested for diabetes in urine by taste.
Today, proponents make similarly broad-based claims about urine’s curative powers. So, should you be mixing your morning pee into your morning smoothie? Probably not.
There’s no scientific evidence to support claims that drinking urine is beneficial. On the contrary, research suggests that drinking urine can introduce bacteria, toxins, and other harmful substances into your bloodstream. It can even place undue stress on your kidneys. "

Now this theory seems older than LCHF. And science seems to be the only indication that it is not good for you.
Last edited by: Schnellinger: Apr 10, 19 12:25
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
You keep thinking in black or white. What I am saying is there is no black or white when it comes to nutrition.


Some things are black and white, which otherwise would have been at odds with the laws of physics. For instance, a popular statement in LCHF-communities is that you won't gain weight if you don't eat carbs. This is wrong, regardless of how many LCHF books you read stating that it is true. This is why we have science, to falsify a hypothesis.

Well said. For example, the energetics of burning carbs versus burning fat are known. What does vary from individual to individual is how important those are compared to everything else going on in eating, training, and racing.

The LCHF folks these days do acknowledge CICO. Heck, Taubes funded a study that falsified the insulin theory. They do still try to bury the facts in mumbo-jumbo. For example, Jason Fung says:

"Excess calories may certainly be the proximate cause of weight gain, but not its ultimate cause. What's the difference between proximate and ultimate? The proximate cause is immediately responsible, whereas the ultimate cause is what started the chain of events."

In other words, eating carbs will result in you eating too many calories, while LCHF will automatically result in you eating fewer calories.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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I am afraid you have a reading comprehension problem. Some things can be proven by science, such as not eating carbs will lead to not gaining weight, because you can experiment with a calorimeter and conclude the opposite if the net calory intake is positive. What I said and you twisted is that in terms of what the best diet is, there is no single answer. The best diet will depend on your age genetics and environmental conditions. For some people it will be LCHF for others it won't. If you want to keep saying childish things about drinking urine go ahead of it makes you feel happy. However you will find zero evidence that it's good FOR ME.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
You keep thinking in black or white. What I am saying is there is no black or white when it comes to nutrition. There is zero anecdotal evidence that drinking urine is good for me. I googled and failed to find it. I will repeat it again. my conditions are different to yours (primarily age and genetics, but also environmental conditions) and drinking urine maybe good for you and bad for me (I would have to try first before I can attest) just as much as LCHF might be good for me and bad for you. In fact all LCHF literature I have read clearly says that it is probably not adequate for around 25% of the population, and that the suitability increases as you age.

In addition, I think you and many people around here fail to understand the limits of science. A research paper documenting a study conducted with a small population group proves very little, other than the result is applicable to that population group. Specially in things like nutrition where it is impossible to control most of the variables. Conduct the same study with a completely different population group and the results might be completely different. Hell even anecdotal evidence proving the contrary of one of those studies will invalidate the results of the study as a universal theory.


Once again you are wrong. Some things are black and white, which otherwise would have been at odds with the laws of physics. For instance, a popular statement in LCHF-communities is that you won't gain weight if you don't eat carbs. This is wrong, regardless of how many LCHF books you read stating that it is true. This is why we have science, to falsify a hypothesis.

And science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would have stopped. One study doesn't say much, but replicating a study, with different people from different places and obtaining the same results again and again indicates a certain correlation. Continuing this process over time then gives us reason to believe that some things are more right than others. The alternative would be to start from the end result, work with ad hoc explanations every time those irritating science geeks come up with seemingly good arguments, accept that the theory doesn't hold water, come up with a number of people for which the theory works /does not work, say 25% of the population, without basing it on anything other than what the author seems to think is a plausible number, and shut down every time someone comes up with results that contradict your theory.

Oh, and last but not least: Third search on google using "drink my own pee",


"Is drinking urine good for you?

Reports dating back to ancient Rome, Greece, and Egypt suggest that urine therapy has been used to treat everything from acne to cancer. There was a time when doctors tested for diabetes in urine by taste.
Today, proponents make similarly broad-based claims about urine’s curative powers. So, should you be mixing your morning pee into your morning smoothie? Probably not.
There’s no scientific evidence to support claims that drinking urine is beneficial. On the contrary, research suggests that drinking urine can introduce bacteria, toxins, and other harmful substances into your bloodstream. It can even place undue stress on your kidneys. "

Now this theory seems older than LCHF. And science seems to be the only indication that it is not good for you.


ecce-homo wrote:
I am afraid you have a reading comprehension problem. Some things can be proven by science, such as not eating carbs will lead to not gaining weight, because you can experiment with a calorimeter and conclude the opposite if the net calory intake is positive. What I said and you twisted is that in terms of what the best diet is, there is no single answer. The best diet will depend on your age genetics and environmental conditions. For some people it will be LCHF for others it won't. If you want to keep saying childish things about drinking urine go ahead of it makes you feel happy. However you will find zero evidence that it's good FOR ME.


See this is why it is difficult to discuss with religious people. They jump from argument to argument and when they don't have an argument, they get personal. Since you clearly are not capable of replying, let us go through what you wrote one more time.

1. "What I am saying is there is no black or white when it comes to nutrition."

To which I replied that there is. The first law of thermodynamics is pretty clear on this matter. I found that reference to be pretty solid. Please provide a verified counterexample to this law. Your "example" is flat our wrong.

2. "There is zero anecdotal evidence that drinking urine is good for me."

To which I gave a link proving you wrong.

Since you clearly are not able to see the relevance of comparing your religion to other religions, I will explain it to you: there is no difference in method between your religion and the "I drink my own pee religion". The reason why I brought it up was to see if you were able to see how ridiculous it seems when people take your reasoning to the extreme. And you were! You called it childish. Now are you able to follow this reasoning and attack your own guru(s) in the same way?

I don't know where in the above I twisted your words? I took your exact words and replied to them. Please give an example of the contrary. That you don't like where the discussion is going has nothing to do with my reading comprehension.
Last edited by: Schnellinger: Apr 10, 19 22:28
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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I would definitely take a reading comprehension course if I where you. I am defending that there isn't a one size fits all when it comes to nutrition and you are calling me religious?

Keep having fun if you so wish.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
I would definitely take a reading comprehension course if I where you. I am defending that there isn't a one size fits all when it comes to nutrition and you are calling me religious?

Keep having fun if you so wish.

Maybe you should take a logic course or "how do I express what I mean course" instead? Because if all you were saying was that one size does not fit all, I would agree with you. But scrolling up a few posts will show otherwise. Of course you can't back down and admit that you were wrong, because that is difficult. But hopefully this was a good first step for you. You will probably not change next time around either, but hopefully you will come around one day.

And just to be clear: there is nothing wrong with you, nor anybody else eating LCHF. It is the religion I am criticising.

Have a great season :)
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kiwi Spud] [ In reply to ]
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The most common misconception by far, was that fat is converted to energy. The problem with this theory is that it violates the law of conservation of matter, which all chemical reactions obey.
fat is converted to carbon dioxide and water. You exhale the carbon dioxide and the water mixes into your circulation until it’s lost as urine or sweat.
If you lose 10kg of fat, precisely 8.4kg comes out through your lungs and the remaining 1.6kg turns into water. In other words, nearly all the weight we lose is exhaled.
This surprises just about everyone, but actually, almost everything we eat comes back out via the lungs. Every carbohydrate you digest and nearly all the fats are converted to carbon dioxide and water. The same goes for alcohol.
Protein shares the same fate, except for the small part that turns into urea and other solids, which you excrete as urine.
The only thing in food that makes it to your colon undigested and intact is dietary fibre (think corn). Everything else you swallow is absorbed into your bloodstream and organs and, after that, it’s not going anywhere until you’ve vaporised it.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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I have no issues at all recognizing when I am wrong. In this case I think I have been clear from the start that I believe there is no one size fits all in nutrition. In my first reply to you I said "absolutely no science that can prove that one size fits all diet exists", but so did you with a similar quote regarding high carbs, so let's call it a draw ;-)

What is relevant is that we agree on the core. Both regarding "one size does not fit all" and that there is a LCHF diet religion (as there is for mostly any diet btw).

You have a great season too!
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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What does autism have to do with seizures? You may have both or just one or the other. In any case ketogenic diets have been shown to improve intractable seizures.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [alfonzo] [ In reply to ]
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alfonzo wrote:
What does autism have to do with seizures? You may have both or just one or the other. In any case ketogenic diets have been shown to improve intractable seizures.

My mistake. I meant Epilepsy in children is one of the very few instances where it is recommended.
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