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Re: keto and endurance racing [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
synthetic wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
The one and ONLY ONE segment of the population to have been scientifically shown to benefit from Keto is autistic children. Seizures have been lessened. Otherwise, not 1 true peer reviewed study has shown a benefit, and many have shown detrimental results, especially in short efforts.


Reverse type 2 diabetes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1325029/



Thanks! Did not know of that one. Leaves most of us out still.


And it's being misrepresented as usual anyway.

25% of the participants dropped out due to inability to adhere to the diet.

Of the ones who remained, the median carb intake was above the goal of <20g per day, and the majority of them were not in ketosis as measured by ketones.

They were all on significantly hypocaloric diets and lost weight. We see similar drops in HgA1c with weight loss from any diet.

Nothing was "reversed". You had a moderate decrease in HgA1c indicating better CONTROL of the disease.

But despite all that, we know lower carb diets are good for diabetics. And that has nothing to do with this thread as you mentioned.
Last edited by: RoostBooster: Apr 8, 19 15:08
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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When you start your post with a link to a product......well I appreciate your transparency but hardly can take the post without bias
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Understand. For the OP it makes sense to share a guideline that is free and helps understand the process. I have it in my signature line so it's clear I am affiliated. For the record when I finished my first LCHF 70.3 8th OA I hadn't found their product yet. It was after my first 50k run that my wife found it online and ordered me a bag. It is the only product I have found without carbs that gives electrolytes and fat while training. For racing I use GU gels and EFS Pro. Tried Ucan but can't stand the chalkiness.

Sorry for any confusion or misinterpretation on my part.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
I have been using Generation Ucan. It works and I like you don't get the same peaks and troughs as you

Ucan is corn starch. It's a carb. Volek has a financial interest in it and they've decided to market it to low-carb people for some reason. But according to the studies they advertise, it doesn't actually do anything.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [RoostBooster] [ In reply to ]
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RoostBooster wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
synthetic wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
The one and ONLY ONE segment of the population to have been scientifically shown to benefit from Keto is autistic children. Seizures have been lessened. Otherwise, not 1 true peer reviewed study has shown a benefit, and many have shown detrimental results, especially in short efforts.


Reverse type 2 diabetes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1325029/



Thanks! Did not know of that one. Leaves most of us out still.


And it's being misrepresented as usual anyway.

25% of the participants dropped out due to inability to adhere to the diet.

Of the ones who remained, the median carb intake was above the goal of <20g per day, and the majority of them were not in ketosis as measured by ketones.

They were all on significantly hypocaloric diets and lost weight. We see similar drops in HgA1c with weight loss from any diet.

Nothing was "reversed". You had a moderate decrease in HgA1c indicating better CONTROL of the disease.

But despite all that, we know lower carb diets are good for diabetics. And that has nothing to do with this thread as you mentioned.

OK, I know this is waay off topic, but... I'm a fat old fart at pushing 60 and type 2 diabetic. Hitting a low carb diet + intermittent fasting has allowed me to lose 60+ lbs and took about half an hour off my half marathon time, and I no longer take metformin ( or inject ). I freely admit I pretend km's are miles so my times look better, but at least I'm still doing it.

But... at one point I leant heavily into the weight loss, and reduced calorific intake dramatically. DO NOT TRY THIS and attempt to train normally. I thought I was dying.

Oh, and it's HbA1c.

Steve
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Re: keto and endurance racing [sholdowa] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

Oh, and it's HbA1c.

Steve

Ha. I don't think I've written it in 10+ years since EMRs became super common!
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Re: keto and endurance racing [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not sure you “know” how to keep your idiotic replies in the wind tunnels where they belong.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ktijunelis] [ In reply to ]
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ktijunelis wrote:
I’m not sure you “know” how to keep your idiotic replies in the wind tunnels where they belong.

You registered 4 years ago and this was your first post? I'm honored!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: keto and endurance racing [RoostBooster] [ In reply to ]
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RoostBooster wrote:
Quote:


Oh, and it's HbA1c.

Steve


Ha. I don't think I've written it in 10+ years since EMRs became super common!

I've been type 1 diabetic for 28 years. It's been hba1c for most of that. Before hba1c they used fructosamine.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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That's great to know. Where did these other Inuits get their high carbs from? Igloos Pizza? I'd love to see that research paper showing that Inuits nearly got extinct due to their diet despite living in a mild climate and leading an easy life. it
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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HardlyTrying wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
I have been using Generation Ucan. It works and I like you don't get the same peaks and troughs as you


Ucan is corn starch. It's a carb. Volek has a financial interest in it and they've decided to market it to low-carb people for some reason. But according to the studies they advertise, it doesn't actually do anything.
Yes I know it is a carb but lower GI hence I don't get the peaks and troughs as I stated and why they market it to low carb people... You still need carbs to race but the lower GI the better.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [adamga1] [ In reply to ]
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Never researched their athletic results, but I am pretty sure you need a lot of endurance to lead their life. Anyway, my only point here is that things are not black and white as many posters seen to imply.

Optimal dietary needs change with age and genetics for the same type of activity. Plus the human body is tremendously resilient and has many alternative metabolic pathways. We probably evolved using many different diets based on availability, and it's probably a good thing to change eating patterns with a certain frequency. To me that is part of the logic behind IF. But that is another subject.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kiwi Spud] [ In reply to ]
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
cartsman wrote:
alexZA wrote:
Yeah the "theory" is so good that Team Sky and half the pro peleton are on a ketogenic diet and doing intermittent fasting. Oh wait, they aren't...


Well Sky and others in the pro peloton are using ketone drinks, which is effectively a (very expensive) way of getting the benefits of a ketogenic diet instantly and without having to actually do the diet.

Ketogenic diet and fasting isn't going to work for pros who are cycling 30+ hours a week, would be impossible to fuel their workouts. It's much more possible for a time-restricted AGer, and the fact that pro teams are spending $30-40 per serving of ketone drink (apparently) suggests there may be benefits to a ketogenic diet worth exploring.



And the reason why they use ketone drinks is because they can get the benefits without loosing the high end power which you lose on a ketogenic diet. There is no logical bridge from there to exploding a ketogenic diet.

There's a logical bridge from pros using ketone drinks for performance to amateurs looking for ways to get similar benefits through diet/training without compromising performance (and without remortgaging your house to pay for your nutrition!).

Full on ketogenic diet probably isn't the way to go for somebody looking to achieve high performance, certainly not in shorter races and/or races where you need power surges as opposed to steady state. There is research however showing that there may well be gains to be achieved from performing selected workouts in a fasted or depleted state, and/or periodising your nutrition and training. E.g. doing a period of training on low carbs in order to improve fat adaptation, then switching to a high carb diet for racing. Australian institute of sport did some interesting research on this with their group of long distance walking athletes.

Personally (N=1=anecdote not data I know...) I've experimented quite a bit with intermittent fasting and fasted training. I still fuel races and higher intensity sessions with carbs, but will do quite a few shorter or steady state sessions each week in a carb-depleted state. E.g. a 2 hour run in the morning having not eaten since the night before and only taking on water (and a pre-run espresso) during the run. My take is that at minimum it's had no detrimental impact on my training and racing, and I think (though hard to quantify) that it's had some benefit. Has certainly helped me improve my body composition through a better overall diet (more normal food, less sugary sports nutrition). So even if there's been no performance improvement in races through improved fat-burning, then I'm still happy with performance improvement through better body composition with no apparent negative effects.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
That's great to know. Where did these other Inuits get their high carbs from? Igloos Pizza? I'd love to see that research paper showing that Inuits nearly got extinct due to their diet despite living in a mild climate and leading an easy life. it
Wut? Who said they ate high carbs? What are you even talking about?
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
HardlyTrying wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
I have been using Generation Ucan. It works and I like you don't get the same peaks and troughs as you


Ucan is corn starch. It's a carb. Volek has a financial interest in it and they've decided to market it to low-carb people for some reason. But according to the studies they advertise, it doesn't actually do anything.

Yes I know it is a carb but lower GI hence I don't get the peaks and troughs as I stated and why they market it to low carb people... You still need carbs to race but the lower GI the better.

I've used it. I suspect it's just fine although it may not be any better than plain corn starch or any other slow carb.

I find it kinda funny that they advertise what it doesn't do. It doesn't spike glucose. You know what else doesn't spike glucose? Water. They show a graph of blood glucose over time with Ucan and maltodextrin. I'd be curious to see the control of the experiment where they show blood glucose of those who had water and perhaps another treatment where they had a different slow carb. If the Ucan line stays above the water and other carb lines, then they may have something.

But a better approach might be, and it's the approach of ~every top endurance athlete including those who train low-carb, is to keep adding sugar and keep that glucose peak up there. I heard this expert dude on scienceofultra and he said don't take slow carbs but rather use fast carbs slowly.

Again, Ucan is probably fine. Unique marketing strategy to market it as the carb for low-carb people.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
RoostBooster wrote:
Quote:


Oh, and it's HbA1c.

Steve


Ha. I don't think I've written it in 10+ years since EMRs became super common!


I've been type 1 diabetic for 28 years. It's been hba1c for most of that. Before hba1c they used fructosamine.

I didn't say it was different. I say it out loud all the time but never write it out due to our pervasive use of computers.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kiwi Spud] [ In reply to ]
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I know this isn't really the answer to the question you asked, but it seems to be coming up a lot in this thread whether keto / lchf is actually "good" for endurance sports vs. the normal carbs. I think it should be pretty clear at this point that it's really all about genetics (or other factors that we haven't yet identified) and that different things work differently for different people.

For example, people talk about how high fat diets fueled the inuit but if (as seems to be the case) the reason that it worked for them is unique genetics, that doesn't necessarily mean much for everyone else: https://www.sciencedaily.com/.../09/150917160034.htm

I've heard anecdotally from people who use low carb high fat for looooong endurance races and seem to get better results than they had when using carbs. I've also seen people who had a gluten (or sugar) sensitivity that was totally effing them up and it took them a long time to realize it, and they got better and were healthier by switching away from carbs, not necessarily because carbs were bad but because of everything else that went along with the carbs. So, if it actually is working for you, cholesterol is not rising when you go to the doctor, etc., keep it up, regardless of whether other people say it's "wrong" or not clinically validated etc.

On the other hand, i have not heard yet of anyone who has claimed a performance benefit for shorter, higher intensity events like the 5k, cyclocross, or road racing (with its associated power spikes)
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Re: keto and endurance racing [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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devolikewhoa83 wrote:
For example, people talk about how high fat diets fueled the inuit but if (as seems to be the case) the reason that it worked for them is unique genetics, that doesn't necessarily mean much for everyone else: https://www.sciencedaily.com/.../09/150917160034.htm

Sorta. It's not so much that it worked for them as a population because of their population's original unique genetics, but that those few individuals who had the advantageous mutations were much more likely to survive and pass on their genes than those who didn't, hence the genetic "adaptation" the article talks about. So today as a population they do have unique genetics. The Inuit provide strong evidence that a high-fat diet long term is in general very very bad for survival because it killed off most (not all*) who lacked the extremely rare mutations. Or maybe the selection only applies in a cold climate.

Any way you look at it, "Inuit prove keto is bad" is more accurate than "Inuit prove keto is good", although either is way too simple.

*in a previous post I flippantly used "almost become extinct" in response to a previous sarcastic comment; obviously I was exaggerating.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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Got it. I just meant that the fact that some of them seem to thrive doesn't necessarily constitute evidence that "keto is good / will work for YOU personally" if YOU are not the product of generations of those adaptations.

leaving aside of course those individuals who were "selected against" during the process
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Re: keto and endurance racing [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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I set a PR in my 5k, 10k and open HM landing in the 18:ss on the 5k. Set a PR in my local Sprint Triathlon race on just water. My longer event PRs have already been posted.

I am one of those who has a gluten sensitivity that made my family avoid me because of stomach "issues". I also had blood sugar issues that dropped, glucose around 32 with meter, every 2-3 weeks. I would lay on the ground with blurry vision and irregular heartbeat until somebody got me lots of sugar or I shoved gels into my system. I just dealt with it because that was normal to me. The doctors just told me to carry a Glucose gel pack and we kept them in the first aid kit at work. I carried several gels during runs no matter how short they were. All that is gone now. I don't need a scientific study to tell me this works for me.

My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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That's great!

I stand corrected on the 5K point :)

Your type of experience is exactly what i meant when i said, if it works for you, it clearly works. There are many reasons you can imagine why it would work for someone and yet not really be able to be "clinically validated" as beneficial for the population at large.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
synthetic wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
The one and ONLY ONE segment of the population to have been scientifically shown to benefit from Keto is autistic children. Seizures have been lessened. Otherwise, not 1 true peer reviewed study has shown a benefit, and many have shown detrimental results, especially in short efforts.

Reverse type 2 diabetes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1325029/


Thanks! Did not know of that one. Leaves most of us out still.

Who is us? Slowtwitch? If you look at the large portion of participantion pyramid, many are SAD americans trying to lose weight (PTG comes to mind, much bigger than ST)
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry but your first sentence was not very clear. I thought you meant to say some Inuits where high carb and others low. And the former fared better. My apologies.
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