thank you. At least one person sees where i am coming from. I possibly wrote this post a little over the top, but come on, there is a difference between cutting the course and drafting. Like i said, drafting on the run and swim is ok. Nobody posts that that is cheating. Can anybody post back on this. And I don't want an answer that says, the rules dont say anything against drafting in the run or swim. Just some food for thought.

drafting is EXACTLY the same as cutting the course, in effect. effect is what matters at the finish line. i can draft rich strauss at race speed just fine, for example and he was one of the fastest guys at IMMOO. sitting on his wheel i could knock over an hour from my IM time quite handily.

well then t-t-n, is it cutting the course when i draft you in the swim, or key off your right shoulder on a windy run? Just don't want to see a double standard thats all.

there is no double standard, p2k. one is allowed by the rules and one is not. are you proposing a rule change? if so that is fine as a proposal. if you are talking about existing events you are talking about cheating, (intentionally disregarding a very large part of them,i n fact) which would in effect be identical to shortening the course. that is how i would see it, and i believe most marshalls would too.

There's a big difference between taking advantage of a draft during the 15 second passing window, and hopping into a paceline. One is legal, the other is not. There is nothing that GT described that I see is a violation of the rules.

Now for the part you don't want to hear: drafting on the swim and run is OK because there are no rules against doing so. You can make the argument that this presents a double standard. OK, fine. That may be an argument for a rule change. BUT, it is not an excuse or justification for racers to start violating the rules that DO exist and cheat.

I might be wrong but, safety issues aside, drafting on the bike brings in team tactics to a much greater extent than on the swim and run. I believe that triathlon is an individual sport and the rules should help ensure that it retains this important aspect of the sport. To me, drafting and pacelines are representative of cycling's "team" events. If you look at the one road cycling event that is truely individual, the time trial, drafting is strictly prohibited. I believe this is the model triathlon ought to follow in order to stay away from the "team sport" realm. In open water swimming and distance running, drafting may play a part, but as an individual's tactics. Setting up a team structure in a marathon with drafting, pacelines, breakaways, and chases won't do the team much good.

The bottom line though is this: If you disagree with a rule, lobby to get it changed. (What you might say you're doing.) But DO NOT simply disregard the rule and cheat while it is still in place just because you feel like doing so. (Something is also appears you are doing.)

I always pre-ride and run the course. This way I can find short cuts where I can cut about a mile or 2 off the course. Cutting more than this would be wrong BUT if those people are drafting then the only way to place is cutting the course. You should try this P2K man!!!!!!! After all cheating is cheating. Next I'm thinking of having my wife hide and jump out in front of leaders in my age group kick them over and help me take the lead

For those of you inclined to draft...Become bike racers.

I use bike racing for my "competitive juices." I use triathlon to measure "personal improvement."

I'm not sure that those who are newer to triathlon fully understand the spirit upon which multisport was founded...It's about pushing your PERSONAL limits.

Very few athletes actually are "racing" at 1/2 IM and longer events, but they'll often use "racing" as an excuse to relieve some discomfort and ride in/near the pack...That's B.S. Why does it bother me...because I DO see the world as more black and white (could be the Military background).

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http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"

Ahhh, the squishy world of ethics 101. NOT. Cheating is cheating. If it looks like drafting, smells like drafting, sounds like drafting, well then its drafting. I second t-t-n.....KNOCK IT OFF SCUMBAGS!!!!!! Unlike t-t-n I've been around the sport for a while and have counted many drafting scumbags in my day. The only thing you are gaining is a bad reputation among your competitors. At the end of the day we'll remember you a lot less for your podium finish than we will for your lack of moral courage (as opposed to finishing, say, 10th while competing fairly) As for the idea that if everyone is doing it or no one sees you then its ok.....Integrity is what you do when no one is looking.

We can only beat a dead horse for so long... and then we need to go out and train.

ENOUGH! DRAFTING IS NOT LEGAL SO DON"T DO IT, AND IF YOU SEE SOMEONE ELSE DOING IT, LET THEM KNOW THEY ARE TOOOOOLLLLLSSSSS!!

<GT shakes head>

Why can't people read and comprehend posts. It amazes me.

<GT shakes head again>

I never said I drafted. I wish you would read the post clearly. Then perhaps you could also act like an adult and stop throwing names around. It amazes me the number of adults we have on this forum, and their skilled debating style.

I, personally, will ride within the rules but use all available tactics to my benefit. An example is during Gulfcoast, riding a legal distance behind a pack. They are draftin, I am out of the draft zone. I still get a benefit. Nothing illegal in doing that. Passing hundreds of people on the bike, and using them as shelter from the wind- legal. I also draft on the swim. I drafted one guy the entire swim in Gulfcoast last year. He was pissed, I was happy with my time. All legal.

As to my comments on race day rules. If people feel the need to adopt them, I can understand. As I said, however, they need to decide how they will feel looking at their trophy. All my trophies were gained legally. I choose not to draft. If I didn't make it a habit of throwng them all away, I could gaze on them proudly.

If you want to talk ethics, please refrain from throwing around slurs. That is not very ethical.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

GT, As a matter of fact I did read your post AND comprehend it. My post was not aimed specifically at you. I just replied in general to the last post on the thread. However, I feel VERY strongly about this issue, as do most others, apparently.

And there is nothing unethical about calling someone a scumbag if they are one. I don't dance around things very much.

If someone jumps in behind me, I blow my nose as hard as possible. Sometimes that fixes the drafting problem. If not spitting hot gatorade helps.

Well that is probably for the best. If you danced with as much grace and tact as you exchange ideas, you are going to break things.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

guys, come on now. why can't we all act like adults. if you want to call me part of the drafting problem, fine. But, i haven't heard any solutions to fix it, either on this post, or the undrafting post. It seems like you will either draft, of settle for waiting on the run. I am competitive and want to attack the whole race, not just the swim and the run. THERE IS A DRAFTING PROBLEM!! So, we have a choice, because some people, like myself compete to be the best. We can either fix the problem, or legalize drafting, which could be seen as avoiding the problem, but I can't picture another alternative for those who want to compete against each other. I would love to hear any other options or solutions to the problem of drafting.

I am not a triathlete nor do I ever think I could handle the swim. I wanted to respond to this coming from someone who done bicycle road racing and a few small duathlons.

First the rules are quite simple on this. Drafting is illegal. From my perspective there are a couple of good reasons for not doing it also. I think the sports (duathlons/triathlons) were designed as individual sports. These are tests of the individual. Drafting takes away from that aspect of the sport. So as a purist I would say drafting should also remain illegal.

Drafting is not against the rules in the swim or the run. How much does drafting really help in these segments? Or in these situations is it really just pacing off the front person. I understand how drafting on the swim would be more benificial than on the run. Running races have always been viewed as individual efforts even with the group starts. Once again in my limited exposure, I have never witnessed "team" tatics during a running race.

Drafting on a bike when you know how to do it properly is a hugh gain. Drafting can reduce your effort by 20-30% with just one rider in front of you. While drafting in a pack, the gains are even bigger. Unlike running or swimming where your stride and turnover rate are only so much, I just shift up a couple of gears on the bike and go.

Cyclists who know paceline and road racing skills in a drafting environment can easily drop you or make you suffer more than you wanted too. And here lies another reason for no drafting. My ability to make you suffer, while my buddy sits back in the pack. He doesn't work, he doesn't suffer, he is resting and being paced. The pack will behave at the speed we dictate. Yes we may all be going faster than we could alone. BUT, we can control the pack in such a manner that the pack doesn't go faster than we want it to.

This happened a few years back in a duathlon. Another cyclist buddy of mine and I did the first run together. We ran side by side with purpose in mind. Then we TEAMED up on the bike. Make no misunderstanding, we did it as a two man team time trial. We rode at 3-6 inches apart. We rode up other riders rear wheels passing at the last second, so that we could get every advantage possible. Our speed was significantly faster than either of us would have done alone. After the bike, I walked the second run and he went on and did rather nicely. Was it cheating, YES. Did we know we were cheating, resounding, YES.

Legalized drafting would make for this type of team effort. The second (or third) person has no intentions of finishing the last leg. Their only goal is to get their team mate through the bike as fast as possible.

So what I am telling you is, quite simply is that two or three trained cyclist can use pack tatics to ruin your race. "I pulled off the front to tried an get away.....". Did you "pull" off the front or did they let you go?. Letting you off the front is another way to make you suffer.

Legalized drafting opens up a much bigger can of worms for cheating than no drafting. Let's also keep in mind that loaded relay teams would be easily formed with road cyclists with pack racing in mind. Do you really want to go there??

As a cyclist, IMHO most duathletes/triathletes are lacking the bike handling skills to ride safely within a pack. Pack riding takes some special handling skills that most have not practiced. Unless you routinely train with a group, you will never develop these skills. I can tell you that when you take an average group of cyclists and put them in a pack riding 5-6 mph faster than they are used to, it is quite dangerous.

In my riding I almost never draft anyone that I dont know (before you go there - in road racing I tend to stay in the front of the groups). It hurts going down at speed, and it can be quite expensive. Are you willing to increase the chance of destroying your bike like that (I'm a cyclist - its more important than getting hurt) and that kind of injury??

I should note that pacers or rabbits are regularly used in just about all middle and long distance running world record attemps. The pacers are typically paid to perform this service - in some cases getting extra bonuses if they bring the key people to a certain point in the race at exactly the right pace.

Kenyan and Ethiopian runners regularly use team tactics in big championship track, road and cross-country races. Certain runners are designated to surge, or carry/set the pace, or sit on and follow other runners, hopefully to set up the main runner for the win.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I don't agree with legalizing drafting. Maintain (at least the appearance) of triathlon as an individual sport is very important I think- primarily for attracting new participants. We never EVER have a person come in the sotre and say "I'd like to try a criterium one day..." They are afraid of crashing, and somewhat justifiably so. Keeping the drafting out of the event keeps it more "pure" or accessible. Now, having said that- I have drafted in events. In Chicago I just got frustrated with all the bikes on the course and got in a paceline with two other guys. We were blatantly and openly taking pulls and rotating. There was ZERO marshalling. I bet I saved 5 minutes minimum. Total cheating. The rules said "don't draft". I did draft. I wasn't even close to an age group award at 2:17:00 so it was a "just for fun" thing. Still, it was frustrating. At a local event when things are more serious to me, or at Ironman, no- I would never do that. But I have been drafted off of. When It happens I move over once. If the guy wants to draft- hey, that's his (or her) race. Personally I try to avoid cheating where practical and safe. I would like to try a draft legal triathlon some day though, but I think the sports should be kept seperate for us "fun runners".

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

thanks, tom, for at least seeing where i am coming from, and not blasting my opinion. I am fine with keeping drafting out of the sport as I said, but do you have any ideas how to keep the sport 'pure', yet allow competition?

Yeah, I have a "solution".... - CHARACTER! That and better officiating. Seriously, the only "real" issue is mass start swims with large numbers of competitors all leaving T1 at the same time, making it difficult to follow the rules. Otherwise, you have no good excuse for drafting. Even if you are not taking that race seriously, so you think drafting isn't unethical at that time, you could potentially be endangering others, are setting a bad example, and are discouraging those that are following the rules. Even pros (albeit sometimes due to bad weather) end up crashing in team time trials. Racing inches apart on aero bars IS dangerous. Here's the only other possible solution: start the "slow" wave of swimmers 1-2 hours after the others. Let them wear numbers of a different colour, indicating that they can draft legal and cannot have aerobars on their bike. You'd have to start them, depending on the length of the race, late enough so that they won't blend into the non-draft legal group. Sounds way too complicated! Go ITU or go road racing, start your own draft-legal events, or else DON'T DRAFT!

As a matter of fact, I dance much better than most. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what is ethical and tactful, however. Ethics and tact are high priced commodities in my line of work. Grace is not. Mission accomplishment doesn't depend on whether someone gets their feathers ruffled. Tact in my line of work means telling a General (or maybe CEO is more appropriate in your case) that his plan just plain sucks, usually in as few words as possible. That said, my wife keeps telling me I'll have to tone down a bit when I retire....:>

Tom, I did a draft legal race once and it frustrated the hell out of me... mostly because I didn't know it was draft legal! I was in the water warming up for a race in Toronto on the CNE grounds about 7 years ago. The bike course was a 10 x 2.5k loop and they figured that drafting would be unavoidable so they announced at the swim start that it would be legal. I missed that announcement. I spent the first 7 laps trying to drop a pack of 6 or 8 guys then started cursing them out for cheating and was told (not very politely... I deserved it) to shut up and hop into the pack since it was legal for that day. I felt pretty stupid for having wasted so much energy on trying to break away and on getting pissed off. Even when drafting is allowed I won't do it :) I'm not a confident enough pack rider, even after 13 seasons of doing tris, to want to do another draft legal race, plus it sort of flies in the face of what I think triathlon is supposed to be about.

My first thought, after reading this whole thread, is that,if drafting is made legal, I spent a lot of money on a tri specific P2K which will not be used in triathlons as I will no longer compete in them. I am that uncomfortable drafting or being drafted.
My second thought is how to make it an inforceable rule.
1. Appeal to everyone's character. As we all know, this is unworkable, ie, the California stop, right turn on red after stop?, 70 mph speed limit, etc.
2. Marshalls. They cost money rd's do not want to put out. They are also dependent on triathletes or their significant others volunteering to be put in the mix. At IMFL, there were 16 marshalls, one for every 7 miles, and packs still formed.
My third thought is how to make marhalling effective.
1. If there are mass starts, have 2 waves. One wave, a competitive wave with those thinking they have a shot at Kona. The second a non-competitive,"You are an Ironman," wave for those over 13 hrs.
2. No more 3 minute standdowns. If you give it some thought, if you stop to us the porta potty as a friend did, you will lose four minutes; if you draft and are stood down for 3 minute and hydrate, eat and relieve, you've probably gained 5 minutes on my friend. I might still be officiating if it were not for the standdown confrontation. I am not a confrontational individual and I did not perform well in that situation. Besides, stopping a motorcycle on a two lane road in the path of following bicycles is dangerous.
3. Use current technology. Have the marshalls videotape violators. The images can be viewed in the finish line trailer while the run is going on. The same kind of technology that catches red light runners.
4. Have mandatory info sessions for newbies. Explain the rules on drafting, blocking, helmets, etc.
Volunteer to be a marshall, as Cathy Morgan suggests. It might not be your cup of tea but the, at least, one time experience will open your eyes.

Bob Sigerson

>>4. Have mandatory info sessions for newbies. Explain the rules on drafting, blocking, helmets, etc.<<



We've found this actually does help for those people who are genuinely clueless. The scum who have no morals, well......


It's also nice to go into the history of triathlon a little, since there are so many new people.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

i have to say that videotaping from a motorcycle sounds dang good. put a few guys on quiet motorcycles, have them shoot a few seconds of film whenever they come up on some wheelsucking dirtballs, and then scratch them off the results sheet or from the race on the computer back in the tent like you would a dnf. want to cry? it is on the tape. i think a race ot two in a region where this was employed would work wonders.

too bad it won't work. as a ref you have to be "right there" not sitting back behind the action. what looks too close from the rear may not be when viewed from the side[unless the drafter is right on someones wheel]. plus you have to be in position then the clock starts on the 15 seconds not before.

when I come upon "packs" I tend to camp on them. that is I will have the moto stay with them for a few miles which spreads things out before we pull ahead and then I will swing back and ride with them some more if they didn't get the message.

at wildflower long course it will be 4min for the first penalty and additional 8 for the 2nd and anything else is a DQ

and yes I will be there

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