Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
another drafting rant
Quote | Reply
     I think the whole 'cheating' topic is being blown out of proportion. Drafting, in my mind is not cheating, it is smart racing. If there are 2 or 3 guys in front of me sucking each others wheel, you had better believe I am going to join in. My point is, there will always be drafting in a race, whether it be legal of illegal, and it frequently goes unnoticed. The guy that does not draft will not come out on top 9 times out of 10. Therefore, if you can't stop it, you might as well make it legal for everyone, so it is an even playing field. All a draft legal race does is give you an extra incentive to swim fast.

Let's face it, for those affected by drafting, it is not the challenge of finishing the race, but to finish as fast as possible. Let's level the playing field and legalize drafting!
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Good lord, I hope you don't teach Ethics.

Last time I checked, all of the races I enter have very specific rules defining what "drafting" is, and say that it is not allowed. Breaking that rule is cheating.

Last time I checked, EPO use is not allowed as per the rules. so in my mind, using EPO is cheating. I'm sure there are racers out there using it and gaining some benefit from it, but that doesn't change the fact that their use is in violation of the rules. Simply because others use it doesn't mean I should feel justified in doing so.

If drafting in draft-illegal events is "smart racing", is it also "smart racing" sneak into an earlier swim wave, cut the course, use performance enhancing drugs, and incapacitate another competitor? After all, anyone can do it, shouldn't we level the playing field?

From what I understand, there are draft legal triathlons. Why not try to race in them?

Does anybody know what happened to the concept of "Sportsmanship"? I really enjoyed sports much more when participants felt some obligation to uphold the rules of their sport and behave in a Sportsman-like manner.



Many drafting advocates make seem to make the assumption that when it comes to drafting, "you can't stop it." I'm not sure I'm ready to give in to that "fact." If that is actually true, then I could potentially be swayed to support draft legal racing. But there's still a lot of convincing left to be done.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I think the whole 'cheating' topic is being blown out of proportion. Drafting, in my mind is not cheating, it is smart racing. If there are 2 or 3 guys in front of me sucking each others wheel, you had better believe I am going to join in. My point is, there will always be drafting in a race, whether it be legal of illegal, and it frequently goes unnoticed. The guy that does not draft will not come out on top 9 times out of 10. Therefore, if you can't stop it, you might as well make it legal for everyone, so it is an even playing field. All a draft legal race does is give you an extra incentive to swim fast.

Let's face it, for those affected by drafting, it is not the challenge of finishing the race, but to finish as fast as possible. Let's level the playing field and legalize drafting!
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Boulderdash! I have NEVER seen people drafting for more than a second or two in the races I've been in. The people I'm competing with must have a higher sense of following the rules. I will say that if I pass someone, I will often move in front of them a tad too early in order for them to get a tiny benefit FROM ME, sort of as encouragement to counterbalance the discouragement they may feel for being passed. I would NEVER illegally draft behind someone for an unfair benefit. If you do this to me on purpose, expect to be hit by various forms of expectoration.

If you want to race draft legal races, GREAT! That has it's place, I'm a very good drafter, and this is good for me, too. In fact, it takes pressure OFF of the swim...you can swim slower and get with better riders and catch the faster swimmers if you work well together. Let's face it, the best swimmers are not, as a group, the best riders.

In a drafting race, I'd take the swim easier than I do now. Even if there were a couple of very good swimmers that were good bikers...without much good-quality drafting help, a bunch of mediocre swimmers that are excellent bikers working well together will catch the swimmers.

When in a non-drafting race, DON'T draft. What's so hard about that?



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll go look through my USAT Rules book to see if they say drafting's okay if everyone else is doing it. I do think there's a clause stating you're not responsible for your own actions if others are breaking the rules. It's written in the same vein as the traffic law that let's everyone break the speed limit so long as they're moving with the speed of traffic.

...and that's why I do XTERRA's and off-road tri's...
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ktalon et al,

I know you have raced in races where the director has said that drafting is illegal, but there will be no "enforcing" of the rules. There are several races in our area where the course is tight and crowded. I hate it when a group go by me as they draft their way to the front. But do you jump on the train as it goes by, knowing that there are no "draft officials"? I try not to. What I like to do is block when I see a group of drafters catching up to me. Drop back into their group, surge, slowdown, kinda try to upset their flow. This topic just fires me up. If you are in the sport to cheat, go ahead. If you are in the sport for the right reasons, you know who you are and you sleep better at night.

"Nothing in life ever just happens. Calculated progression insures your strength."
Shawn Spencer
Bike Cycles
Wilmington, NC
http://www.bikecycleshop.com
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you were able to place in an event where drafting was prohibited, yet you chose to draft because you noticed a few others doing it, could you accept the recognition/trophy for placing? At that point I would feel I had to give a speech of admittance and not accept the trophy.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I think the whole 'cheating' topic is being blown out of proportion. Drafting, in my mind is not cheating, it is smart racing. If there are 2 or 3 guys in front of me sucking each others wheel, you had better believe I am going to join in. My point is, there will always be drafting in a race, whether it be legal of illegal, and it frequently goes unnoticed. The guy that does not draft will not come out on top 9 times out of 10. Therefore, if you can't stop it, you might as well make it legal for everyone, so it is an even playing field. All a draft legal race does is give you an extra incentive to swim fast.

Let's face it, for those affected by drafting, it is not the challenge of finishing the race, but to finish as fast as possible. Let's level the playing field and legalize drafting!


And this nicely sums the moral/ethical decline of our society....Thanks P2kman!!!!!!



KEEP ON TRI-NG
Last edited by: GatorDawg: Feb 16, 03 5:35
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>>Does anybody know what happened to the concept of "Sportsmanship"? I really enjoyed sports much more when participants felt some obligation to uphold the rules of their sport and behave in a Sportsman-like manner.<<

Well said Pooks. I would ask just how long p2kman and perfection have been in triathlon.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Quote Reply
race schedule... [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
... p2kman... please post your race schedule so we can be sure to avoid the peleton that is due to form...

seriously, perhaps a reassessment is in order. the 'everybody's doing it' or 'if you can't beat 'em join 'em' philosophy may not be the most appropriate here. no need to rehash what many posts already covered, but take a second and think about why you're in the sport. whether you seek the podium or not, do you really want to set a PR because you tagged along behind a clydesdale for 112 miles? if so, why not pluck a few goggles off your competitors on the swim? perhaps, you could kick a running shoe from the tranny spot next to you? in my mind, there's really no difference.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have lost a race because of some cheating bastards. Not an age group...but the entire race, coming in second. I have also won despite some cheating bastards, and never felt more strong as a result. Drafting belongs in the ITU races and nowhere else.

tommy
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [hazelett] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you are drafting (or any other form of cheating) then you are also cheating yourself! Just because a pack forms doesn't mean that you have to lower your own expectations of yourself and jump into the peleton. Ride your own race and have the satisfaction of doing it right. You may not come home with the trophy in your age group but at least you'll know you raced clean and feel good about your accomplishment. How important is the age group trophy the day after the race anyway? I know that all of mine are in a box down in my basement somewhere collecting dust ........
Quote Reply
Re: race schedule... [golferboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Also P2kman...

why do you have a P2K?? thought they were designed for TT?

if you want to draft, come on and do some road races...you will see that drafting can be pretty tough too when you get in a corner and have to generate 800 to 1000w out of it...
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
well put, "breaking the rules is cheating".... and I had some silly idea that triathlon was about pushing my limits not being a wheelsucker. go race ITU please.

but at least they [p2kman and perfection] will understand why I 'm having the moto sit right beside them while I write down their race numbers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nice troll, P2kman. Maybe you'd like to take this to rec.sport.triathlon.

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After racing for over 10 years, Road, Mtb, and now Tri's. My perception of the average Triathlete, is that they are not good bike handlers, they weave, they have delayed braking times and are generally clueless when it comes to the safety of other riders. Legalizing drafting for expirienced racers such as the Pros may make sense, however making it legal for age groupers would be reckless and irresponsible. Drafting on the aero bars in a pack is generally pretty scarey.

I hate to criticize without a positive alternative to any situation, so here are my recommendations if drafting is to become legal for age groupers:

1)NO AERO BARS of any kind

2)Must have a USCF or equivelant CAT 4 ranking

I am going to apologize in advance to the many good bike handling triathletes. It is not fare to generalize but from my expirience, this is my perception.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
    Right or wrong, my point is the good guys seldom win. Also, let me clarify, I do not race and look to draft, but when there is a group of 3 guys sucking wheel, it just pisses me off that they will tear by me. It's not like i'm going to draft them the whole bike leg, I'd much rather catch some wind, and then blow them away.

As for the safety issue of the whole thing, thats what the waiver is for. Whether you draft or not should be your choice to make.

I also think some of the analogies made are blown out of proportion. Kicking goggles off in the swim of kicking a shoe is just plain dirty. I am not with out morals, I would just like to see races be set to a level playing field

It is legal and recommended to draft it the swim, so why not do it in the bike? Now go ahead, and chew me out. I am ready for it.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ok you bitch about drafting and then you decide to be part of the problem so it sort of becomes a self fulfiling draft pack

Packs form due to actions such as yours. it's too bad you lack the self discipline to follow the rules of the sport, you know, the ones you agreed to when you joined USAT.

resist the urge and run a clean race, the more people who do just that make the cheaters stand out that much more which makes it easier for the refs to write them up and and drop them back with a time penalty. Quit whining and race by the rules, I know that if you come up to me and ask why did I get penalised for drafting when others were doing the same thing my response will be to explain the rule and tell you that's why you and all these others [pointing to the violation report] incurred a penalty and to have a nice day but the penalty still stands

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>>It's not like i'm going to draft them the whole bike leg, <<

>>I am not with out morals,<<

Good lord. So a little cheating is OK, and moral? Please, take you and those who think like you and get the hell out of the sport.

Bitchy? Who me?

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Are you for real? It almost seems like you are attemping to be funny. I hope this is the case. If you are serious about being pissed at the "three guys sucking wheel", get over it. THEY ARE CHEATERS!! DON'T BECOME ONE!! DON'T JUSTIFY IT!! DON'T RATIONANLIZE IT!!

Its like the old saying goes "excuses are like A - HOLES, everybody has one, and they all stink."
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [jTenniswood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I thought that was opinions, but excuses works well too :) Agree on the drafting issue...they all stink.

tommy
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You want a real draft fest? Go to IM Canada. Appalling.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Right or wrong, my point is the good guys seldom win. .

I disagree. Furthermore, the bad guys ALWAYS lose, even if they come in first, they are losers.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [ktalon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i am fairly new to the sport of tri. i have to say the most surprising thing to me coming to the sport has been the %-age of people who, like our original poster, seem to accept cheating with the draft as an acceptable part of the sporting ethos of triathlon. don't get me wrong, i am not really a "black and white" sort of person - there are many sports in which a certain level of cheating is considered a charming part of the sport itself. . . . . .baseball, and motor sports for example. still, i thought tri was not that way - "better" than that , if you will. for the most part it is, too, in my experience. i have done several relatively high profile events, and watched for drafting and have seen very little or none. but posts like the our original posters ( if he is actually serious) do seem to be out there. pretty sad. drafting on the bike is the same as cutting inside the bouyss on the swim, or ducking thru an alley and shaving off a few blocks on the run. it undermines the sportitself, i believe and is not compatible with integrity as is nolan ryan throwing a spitball or aj foyt sneaking some extra fuel into his indycar. knock it off, already, scumbags.
Quote Reply
Re: another drafting rant [P2kman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are talking what we call "race day rules." If you are competing for overall, or age group, and know your competition is drafting, what do you do? Many races do not use marshalls, and those that do are not able to catch most drafters. I guess each person has to decide if they will feel okay looking at their trophy.

I will say this: I will use the rules to my advantage, if I can. If I am in a late wave, I can ride sheltered as I pass all the people in front of me. I will stay close to them and ride right up to them in their draft before I pass. I try to use my full 15 seconds when passing if it is to my advantage. If a pack comes buy me, like at Panama City, I will sit the legal distance behind the pack. I am legal, and yet still get an advantage. I feel okay about his. Blatant drafting feels bad, however.

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
Quote Reply

Prev Next