I believe in swimming its Masters and AG's.

On of my friends is the former WR holder in the 50 free circa 81, still sets Masters records today, if you're in his AG you are toast.

Running is AG and then Masters, check out Eddy H at Boston, first American home I think at 42.

I dont think sports are any different unless it is the seniors in tennis or golf..........

i am pretty indifferent to the whole thing. i guess the big thing is how would you change it, for say the 25-29 ag. there are plenty of guys at that age that give the pro ranks a shot, realize they don't quite have it or don't enjoy the lifestyle, and head back to the ag ranks. should they be disqualified from returning to regular ag status? a masters group? it just seems like the logistics of adding some type of intermediate group between pro's and ag's would be difficult. not to mention there are plenty of ag'ers out there that train pretty similar to the pro's and ex-pro's and are fast like them. it would seem unfair to the ex-pro's that they couldn't race as an ag'er because they held a pro card at one point, while someone who puts in(and has put in) the same time training does get the ag status just because they didn't have the card. if this were a sport where simply turning pro guaranteed enhancing your skill level due to coaching or access to better training styles/facilities(like turning pro in one of the mainstream team sports does), then i'd say yes, there should be a new category for those people. but the fact is, everyone has the opportunity to train like a pro--it's not like there are a lot of secrets out there that only the pros know...

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f/k/a mclamb6

Seems a fair question to me. I'm planning on hitting training heavily for a couple of years after age 38 when I retire from the military and then seeing how I really stack up against peers in the masters category. The trouble is, my peers are going to include guys like Reid, Deboom, etc at that point. Right now I'm confident I could be a top AGer if I weren't always being compromised by deployments every year or year and a half. But I'll never be close to those guys. I doubt they'll be pros much after 40, so should they race AG with me when we're all, say, 45? Then again, I doubt anyone is going to look askance if I finish third AG to Deboom and Reid. I think in the end it falls under the category "That's life", and I'll live with it.

monty was a pro until his mid 30s. now, several years after retiring from triathlon, and a pacemaker later, he's back. should have have to race in the pro ranks at 47 years old? what is his alternative?

speaking just for myself, i rather like the idea that i might kick his ass. i hope tinley gets back into racing too. i'd like a shot at kicking his ass.

i think these guys pretty much come back to earth after they retire from being a pro. they have other considerations that require their time and attention, just like the average guy, and frankly i don't think the ex pros would find the adjustment easy. age group racing is its own specialty, if that includes working, being a husband/wife, raising kids, mowing the lawn, and going 4:45 at wildflower as a 40+ or 50+ athlete.

also, remember that a lot of people you think of as being age group athletes were pros, like kevin moats, nick martin, bill leach, etc. you only think of them as age groupers because their pro careers ended a long time ago.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well obviously the clear advantage Monty brought to WF on Sunday was the ex-pro like transitions.........if it were not for them it might have been a different story :)

Where's Molina, Tinley and Allen???????

When I watched the olympics years and years ago, I really felt cheated that in many of the sports, you were not seeing the worlds best. Why, because they did not fall into the category of the so called amateurs. It was obvious that the rest of the world was training pros under the guise of being some government worker. Come on, we all knew that these people never went to work, yet some swimmer here would be dinged for getting 50 bucks for meal money at a swim meet. I'm happy now that all those barriers are broken, and the best athletes are competing in most of the olympic sports.

What does this have to do with the subject of ex pros racing as age groupers? I think that the real athletes in the age groups that don't want to fool themselves, welcome us to their ranks. They don't want to be fooled into thinking they are something that they are not. Just as I was disappointed to watch those old so called amateur olympics, those of you that really wish to measure yourselves against the best in your age group, should welcome us old, burned out, overtrained, over raced, overweight, tequila drinking ex pros. Besides, what else are we gonna do, take up bowling??????Besides, you age groupers are'nt that easy to beat. I think that many of you had the talent to be a pro, if the right circumstances would have presented themselves to you in your primes.

Early in my tri effort I worried about this too. But now, I say "Bring 'em on!" For the most part, the guys winning my AG (40-44) at big races are NOT former pros. They're guys like me that train more and have more talent. I did manage to exit T2 even with a former pro in a race last year. He then ran 36 to my 48...but that's another story.

I can't even catch the lawyer from down my block who's 5 years older than me. Why worry about over-the-hill (oops -- I mean "retired") pros?

Yeah I'll worry about ex-pro's right after I worry about Joe Boness who is 25+ years closer to picking up his Soc Sec check than me.............

:)

Bring it Monty, I can lose to you just as easily as any other AG'er.......

I would like to see pros have to sit out a year or two once they renounce their pro card, before they can race AG. I think figure skating does that? Other than that, what can you do? Yeah, some still train like pros, and so do some AGs. It would be hard to have a "Trains under 8 hours a week" division. And if you did have it, everybody would lie.

I think the worst problems of AG and pros have been stopped. That was when people would bounce back and forth between pro and AG during a season. Race pro to take some money, and then race AG to make sure you have a Hawaii slot, then race pro again, and so forth.....

Also I like that USAT has eliminated points for AGs that race in an elite wave. Little bit of an advantage going off in first wave.

USAT has been making everything fairer.

Hey, I almost beat Dave Scott one year at Gulfcoast*, so I don't mind racing with former pros.

*Yeah, okay, that was the year he rode a brand new bike during the race, cramped up very badly and did a 30+ minute T2. And okay, he still passed me like I was walking backwards.....

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Hells yeah! I love the idea of racing side by side (in the same wave) as former, hell even current, pros. Sure they'll spank the hell out of me and put me even farther from the podium, but I'd rather have the thrill of losing to Peter Reid.

Would any of you back away from the opportunity to play a little 5 on 5 if Michael Jordan were going to be on the floor, or be in a tennis ladder that includes McEnroe???

>>Where's Molina, Tinley and Allen??????? <<

Molina just did IM NZ in March.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"It would be hard to have a "Trains under 8 hours a week" division. And if you did have it, everybody would lie."

knowing triathletes as i do, i think you've got it backwards. those i've known usually profess to doing double their actual mileage, not half of it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

last year there was a letter to the editor of Triathlete Magazine complaining about how Paul Huddle snagged a slot for Hawaii as an age grouper. Roch Frey was given the opportunity to respond to the letter and it was quite hilarious, and true. I wouldn't even do it justice to try to paraphrase it, so maybe someone else can find it and post it.

Emilio is a good example to relate to though. I can see how it is unfair that the rest of the Master's guys have to compete against a guy like that. He only works about 50 hours a week running a decent size company that many of us benifit from. His bike training is almost completely limited to the Spin classes that he teaches in his spare time each week. How fair is that?

Dan and Monty? They never train much at all, they just sit around the fire and tell stories and drink beer and Margaritas all day.

I would much rather see the old pro's still competing rather than hanging it up for good. It was a great thrill to see guys like Monty, Dean Harper and Andrew McNaughton racing again at Wildflower. On the other hand, it is a shame not to have a guy like Mark Allen still out there racing with the everyday Joe's.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Yup, in the end, they're folks like us (with a little help in the genetic department) and should be treated accordingly. The only alternative would be to further the arguments elswhere on the forum this week and create even more classes. We'd have things like the "I used to be a World Champion, but now time and real life have caught up with me" division. We're really getting silly with all this "fairness" crap. Strap 'em on. I'll be ready to take my chances against these guys. In the end, the race is against ourselves, anyway. If I never qualify for IMH, it isn't going to be because Reid took the slot, that's for sure.

Mike,

Good points.

Part of the problem in triathlon is that we have created the everyone's-a-winner culture where their is a category for everyone. The reality is that there really should be only 3 divisons - Junior( under 20), open( under 40) and Master(40+) - in each sex. In fact, in many other sports for many years that's all there was!

The other reality is that there will always be some people that are very good. Like you, I am Master's age, but I have absolutly no illusions that if I am toeing the line with Dave Scott in a race that I am going to beat him or even be close to him. However, I do know that all things considered, if I am fit, the field is reasonably competitive, that I will be in the thick of it.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

" Do other age groupers care? "

Personally I don't care because for me this is all about staying fit and having fun. It's not like I'm making money at it.

There is a local guy in my 50-55 age group who when in his 20's was ranked as the second fastest runner in his distance in Canada. The only reason he didn't go to the Olympics was because of an injury at the trials. He has a lifetime of competitive running. There is no way I can compete against a guy like this since I only started tris three years ago and had no competitive background. He's not much of a swimmer so I can sometimes beat him there, but once the bike and run start, he's way gone.

I like having the ex-pros around. It is a lot of fun to see how you place relative to guys who felt they were good enough to dedicate their lives to it. It is also worth noting that in most sports the really great athletes lose interest after a while and stop training for a number of years and then try and come back while following the same schedule as the rest of us, kids, a real job, family commuting.

I have a friend here who was a world class swimmer, he stopped swimming completely for four years gained a whack of weight (about 30-40 lbs) and has now started swimming masters. He is still pretty fast but on 6 or 7 hours a week training and working 60 hours plus he is never going to regain his form and us mortals can keep him within striking distance and beat hime every once in a while. No better feeling than saying that I beat so and so who was in the XX olympics or who won Nationals in XX.

Let the pros stick around. When we beat them we can brag all the more. (Not that with my 16 MPH bike I will be beating any one).

BTW -- this debate goes on in elite softball circles. I've got a client that plays on world-caliber softball teams that field former major leaguers at a few positions. He reports that the complaining in that sport largely died out 20 years ago, and now everybody loves having the former pros around. Interestingly, the best players in any given tournament are rarely the old pros. Things even out once guys hit their 50's.

If the numbers were there, there could be a separate competition sort of like the "legends" division that crops up occasionally. Handicapping is a possibility as well.

The former would be interesting but usually impractical. The latter sounds too much like bowling or golf.



Larry

Yeah, I thought about Bonness when I posed the question. I know a guy in the 50-54 AG who wins sprints by 10 or 15 minutes. He could win in the 20-something age groups. Don't know his background though. There are definitely a lot of age groupers who could shred some of the pros of lesser stature and slug it out with the big ones.



Larry

I'd like to see the letter and the reply. That's just the sort of thing I was thinking about. There have got to be plenty of people who get absolutely fried over this in the same way as those who dislike the IMH lottery, celebrity, and charity slots.

It's true that most ex-pros now have jobs or businesses that eat up their time but they also have advantages that the rest of us don't have. Maybe access to coaching or equipment or comped entries to races. If one's aim is to complain the there's plenty to go after. The question is one of relative importance. So far the response seems to be the benefits of pros merging into the age groups far greater than the disadvantages.



Larry

"I would much rather see the old pro's still competing rather than hanging it up for good."

There is an ex NHL star in our area. He played on teams that won the Stanley Cup and represented Canada in the international matches. He plays pick up hockey with the local league and goes out for a beer with the guys afterwards.

From a runner's standpoint, if I want to win an award, I'll pick a smaller race with less competition. That's great for an ego boost and all. However, if I want to push myself and go after a PR, I'll go to the biggest race I can find, with the most competition. For me, it's not about winning awards, it's about going fast.

Zeke

<< It's true that most ex-pros now have jobs or businesses that eat up their time but they also have advantages that the rest of us don't have. Maybe access to coaching or equipment or comped entries to races.



not sure who any of this adds up to an advantage? Most of the things you mention are available to anyone and just require money. Coaching, equipment, it just takes money to get that. Comped entries? How does that equate to why they may be faster than others?

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org