I believe in swimming its Masters and AG's.

On of my friends is the former WR holder in the 50 free circa 81, still sets Masters records today, if you're in his AG you are toast.

Running is AG and then Masters, check out Eddy H at Boston, first American home I think at 42.

I dont think sports are any different unless it is the seniors in tennis or golf..........

i am pretty indifferent to the whole thing. i guess the big thing is how would you change it, for say the 25-29 ag. there are plenty of guys at that age that give the pro ranks a shot, realize they don't quite have it or don't enjoy the lifestyle, and head back to the ag ranks. should they be disqualified from returning to regular ag status? a masters group? it just seems like the logistics of adding some type of intermediate group between pro's and ag's would be difficult. not to mention there are plenty of ag'ers out there that train pretty similar to the pro's and ex-pro's and are fast like them. it would seem unfair to the ex-pro's that they couldn't race as an ag'er because they held a pro card at one point, while someone who puts in(and has put in) the same time training does get the ag status just because they didn't have the card. if this were a sport where simply turning pro guaranteed enhancing your skill level due to coaching or access to better training styles/facilities(like turning pro in one of the mainstream team sports does), then i'd say yes, there should be a new category for those people. but the fact is, everyone has the opportunity to train like a pro--it's not like there are a lot of secrets out there that only the pros know...

---

f/k/a mclamb6

Seems a fair question to me. I'm planning on hitting training heavily for a couple of years after age 38 when I retire from the military and then seeing how I really stack up against peers in the masters category. The trouble is, my peers are going to include guys like Reid, Deboom, etc at that point. Right now I'm confident I could be a top AGer if I weren't always being compromised by deployments every year or year and a half. But I'll never be close to those guys. I doubt they'll be pros much after 40, so should they race AG with me when we're all, say, 45? Then again, I doubt anyone is going to look askance if I finish third AG to Deboom and Reid. I think in the end it falls under the category "That's life", and I'll live with it.

monty was a pro until his mid 30s. now, several years after retiring from triathlon, and a pacemaker later, he's back. should have have to race in the pro ranks at 47 years old? what is his alternative?

speaking just for myself, i rather like the idea that i might kick his ass. i hope tinley gets back into racing too. i'd like a shot at kicking his ass.

i think these guys pretty much come back to earth after they retire from being a pro. they have other considerations that require their time and attention, just like the average guy, and frankly i don't think the ex pros would find the adjustment easy. age group racing is its own specialty, if that includes working, being a husband/wife, raising kids, mowing the lawn, and going 4:45 at wildflower as a 40+ or 50+ athlete.

also, remember that a lot of people you think of as being age group athletes were pros, like kevin moats, nick martin, bill leach, etc. you only think of them as age groupers because their pro careers ended a long time ago.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well obviously the clear advantage Monty brought to WF on Sunday was the ex-pro like transitions.........if it were not for them it might have been a different story :)

Where's Molina, Tinley and Allen???????

When I watched the olympics years and years ago, I really felt cheated that in many of the sports, you were not seeing the worlds best. Why, because they did not fall into the category of the so called amateurs. It was obvious that the rest of the world was training pros under the guise of being some government worker. Come on, we all knew that these people never went to work, yet some swimmer here would be dinged for getting 50 bucks for meal money at a swim meet. I'm happy now that all those barriers are broken, and the best athletes are competing in most of the olympic sports.

What does this have to do with the subject of ex pros racing as age groupers? I think that the real athletes in the age groups that don't want to fool themselves, welcome us to their ranks. They don't want to be fooled into thinking they are something that they are not. Just as I was disappointed to watch those old so called amateur olympics, those of you that really wish to measure yourselves against the best in your age group, should welcome us old, burned out, overtrained, over raced, overweight, tequila drinking ex pros. Besides, what else are we gonna do, take up bowling??????Besides, you age groupers are'nt that easy to beat. I think that many of you had the talent to be a pro, if the right circumstances would have presented themselves to you in your primes.

Early in my tri effort I worried about this too. But now, I say "Bring 'em on!" For the most part, the guys winning my AG (40-44) at big races are NOT former pros. They're guys like me that train more and have more talent. I did manage to exit T2 even with a former pro in a race last year. He then ran 36 to my 48...but that's another story.

I can't even catch the lawyer from down my block who's 5 years older than me. Why worry about over-the-hill (oops -- I mean "retired") pros?

Yeah I'll worry about ex-pro's right after I worry about Joe Boness who is 25+ years closer to picking up his Soc Sec check than me.............

:)

Bring it Monty, I can lose to you just as easily as any other AG'er.......

I would like to see pros have to sit out a year or two once they renounce their pro card, before they can race AG. I think figure skating does that? Other than that, what can you do? Yeah, some still train like pros, and so do some AGs. It would be hard to have a "Trains under 8 hours a week" division. And if you did have it, everybody would lie.

I think the worst problems of AG and pros have been stopped. That was when people would bounce back and forth between pro and AG during a season. Race pro to take some money, and then race AG to make sure you have a Hawaii slot, then race pro again, and so forth.....

Also I like that USAT has eliminated points for AGs that race in an elite wave. Little bit of an advantage going off in first wave.

USAT has been making everything fairer.

Hey, I almost beat Dave Scott one year at Gulfcoast*, so I don't mind racing with former pros.

*Yeah, okay, that was the year he rode a brand new bike during the race, cramped up very badly and did a 30+ minute T2. And okay, he still passed me like I was walking backwards.....

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Hells yeah! I love the idea of racing side by side (in the same wave) as former, hell even current, pros. Sure they'll spank the hell out of me and put me even farther from the podium, but I'd rather have the thrill of losing to Peter Reid.

Would any of you back away from the opportunity to play a little 5 on 5 if Michael Jordan were going to be on the floor, or be in a tennis ladder that includes McEnroe???

>>Where's Molina, Tinley and Allen??????? <<

Molina just did IM NZ in March.

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"It would be hard to have a "Trains under 8 hours a week" division. And if you did have it, everybody would lie."

knowing triathletes as i do, i think you've got it backwards. those i've known usually profess to doing double their actual mileage, not half of it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

last year there was a letter to the editor of Triathlete Magazine complaining about how Paul Huddle snagged a slot for Hawaii as an age grouper. Roch Frey was given the opportunity to respond to the letter and it was quite hilarious, and true. I wouldn't even do it justice to try to paraphrase it, so maybe someone else can find it and post it.

Emilio is a good example to relate to though. I can see how it is unfair that the rest of the Master's guys have to compete against a guy like that. He only works about 50 hours a week running a decent size company that many of us benifit from. His bike training is almost completely limited to the Spin classes that he teaches in his spare time each week. How fair is that?

Dan and Monty? They never train much at all, they just sit around the fire and tell stories and drink beer and Margaritas all day.

I would much rather see the old pro's still competing rather than hanging it up for good. It was a great thrill to see guys like Monty, Dean Harper and Andrew McNaughton racing again at Wildflower. On the other hand, it is a shame not to have a guy like Mark Allen still out there racing with the everyday Joe's.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Yup, in the end, they're folks like us (with a little help in the genetic department) and should be treated accordingly. The only alternative would be to further the arguments elswhere on the forum this week and create even more classes. We'd have things like the "I used to be a World Champion, but now time and real life have caught up with me" division. We're really getting silly with all this "fairness" crap. Strap 'em on. I'll be ready to take my chances against these guys. In the end, the race is against ourselves, anyway. If I never qualify for IMH, it isn't going to be because Reid took the slot, that's for sure.

Mike,

Good points.

Part of the problem in triathlon is that we have created the everyone's-a-winner culture where their is a category for everyone. The reality is that there really should be only 3 divisons - Junior( under 20), open( under 40) and Master(40+) - in each sex. In fact, in many other sports for many years that's all there was!

The other reality is that there will always be some people that are very good. Like you, I am Master's age, but I have absolutly no illusions that if I am toeing the line with Dave Scott in a race that I am going to beat him or even be close to him. However, I do know that all things considered, if I am fit, the field is reasonably competitive, that I will be in the thick of it.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

" Do other age groupers care? "

Personally I don't care because for me this is all about staying fit and having fun. It's not like I'm making money at it.

There is a local guy in my 50-55 age group who when in his 20's was ranked as the second fastest runner in his distance in Canada. The only reason he didn't go to the Olympics was because of an injury at the trials. He has a lifetime of competitive running. There is no way I can compete against a guy like this since I only started tris three years ago and had no competitive background. He's not much of a swimmer so I can sometimes beat him there, but once the bike and run start, he's way gone.

I like having the ex-pros around. It is a lot of fun to see how you place relative to guys who felt they were good enough to dedicate their lives to it. It is also worth noting that in most sports the really great athletes lose interest after a while and stop training for a number of years and then try and come back while following the same schedule as the rest of us, kids, a real job, family commuting.

I have a friend here who was a world class swimmer, he stopped swimming completely for four years gained a whack of weight (about 30-40 lbs) and has now started swimming masters. He is still pretty fast but on 6 or 7 hours a week training and working 60 hours plus he is never going to regain his form and us mortals can keep him within striking distance and beat hime every once in a while. No better feeling than saying that I beat so and so who was in the XX olympics or who won Nationals in XX.

Let the pros stick around. When we beat them we can brag all the more. (Not that with my 16 MPH bike I will be beating any one).

BTW -- this debate goes on in elite softball circles. I've got a client that plays on world-caliber softball teams that field former major leaguers at a few positions. He reports that the complaining in that sport largely died out 20 years ago, and now everybody loves having the former pros around. Interestingly, the best players in any given tournament are rarely the old pros. Things even out once guys hit their 50's.

If the numbers were there, there could be a separate competition sort of like the "legends" division that crops up occasionally. Handicapping is a possibility as well.

The former would be interesting but usually impractical. The latter sounds too much like bowling or golf.



Larry

Yeah, I thought about Bonness when I posed the question. I know a guy in the 50-54 AG who wins sprints by 10 or 15 minutes. He could win in the 20-something age groups. Don't know his background though. There are definitely a lot of age groupers who could shred some of the pros of lesser stature and slug it out with the big ones.



Larry

I'd like to see the letter and the reply. That's just the sort of thing I was thinking about. There have got to be plenty of people who get absolutely fried over this in the same way as those who dislike the IMH lottery, celebrity, and charity slots.

It's true that most ex-pros now have jobs or businesses that eat up their time but they also have advantages that the rest of us don't have. Maybe access to coaching or equipment or comped entries to races. If one's aim is to complain the there's plenty to go after. The question is one of relative importance. So far the response seems to be the benefits of pros merging into the age groups far greater than the disadvantages.



Larry

"I would much rather see the old pro's still competing rather than hanging it up for good."

There is an ex NHL star in our area. He played on teams that won the Stanley Cup and represented Canada in the international matches. He plays pick up hockey with the local league and goes out for a beer with the guys afterwards.

From a runner's standpoint, if I want to win an award, I'll pick a smaller race with less competition. That's great for an ego boost and all. However, if I want to push myself and go after a PR, I'll go to the biggest race I can find, with the most competition. For me, it's not about winning awards, it's about going fast.

Zeke

<< It's true that most ex-pros now have jobs or businesses that eat up their time but they also have advantages that the rest of us don't have. Maybe access to coaching or equipment or comped entries to races.



not sure who any of this adds up to an advantage? Most of the things you mention are available to anyone and just require money. Coaching, equipment, it just takes money to get that. Comped entries? How does that equate to why they may be faster than others?

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I seriously doubt that every age grouper has access to the same resources that Dan or Emillio have. That gives them an advantage. Any controversy would center around the significance that others attribute to it. So far, no one is overly concerned about it. I see that as a good thing. Their presence in our midst makes us all stronger. Maybe not strong enough to kick their butts but stronger none-the-less.



Larry

<< I seriously doubt that every age grouper has access to the same resources that Dan or Emillio have. That gives them an advantage.



I'm not neccessarily disagreeing with you, but I still don't see what their advantage is that you are talking about? Sure Emilio gets first pick of his own wetsuits, but they aren't any different from the one's that you or I can buy off the rack. Dan knows how to position people on bikes and has a great place to train, but that is not something that was given to him based on who he is. He learned/invented/bought that. Still not anything that you or I can't do. If there is something else that is giving them an unfair advantage other than work ethic, genes and hard training, let me know. I want it too because I have to race against Emilio all the time and I have to take Dan's crap when he beats me, which is getting a bit to regular for my liking ;-)

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I think I accidently poted to you Mike when I meant to do so generally. That said,I find this interesting. I am a newbee and after training for a couple years I had to realize I will never catch up to those who have been training for years (even moderatly).No matter how hard I try,work,spend more hours a week training I can not catch up. Example:I did a local Tri where I have worked literally three time as hard as two guys my age. The difference,they both have biked for 20 to 25 years. They beat me. It was humbling,however I have come to accept that is just the way it is. Over the years they put in the time and I did not.They are now benfitting from their hard work. Even this is a newbees perspective of competing with the top MOPers is it not the same principle that you top of the MOPers are dealing with the Pro"s. Believe me I am not critisizing anyone,just trying to give a different perspective. Thanks Ken

Amen brother!

Brett

Folks, this is a great thread.

The whole concept of what to do with age-group riders is also pretty big in cycling these days - if a bit off most people's radar. There was a move afoot in Oregon earlier this year to seriously limit the category level at which you could participate in master's racing.

( In USCF cycling they have 5 levels of "proficiency" grading, 1 being top level amateur > 5 being beginner, plus "masters" categories beginning at age 30 and going up in 5 year increments.)

The idea that got floated around was to limit Master's racing to cat 3, or maybe cat 2, and lesser riders. Yuck. Bogus. The argument (from my completely biased perspective) seemed to boil down to "Hey - we keep getting our a##es kicked by these fast Cat 1 and 2 guys, let's just force them to race their category."

Some people REALLY want to win - and if the only way they can do that is to find a way to disqualify the fast folks, then so be it. Yuck.

I really like the idea of racing against my age-group peers. It's fun, and it's different than doing the elite races. I also think the whole age-group "thang" is a big part of what makes tri so inviting to beginners and people who are competing "for the experience," which raises issues in and of itself, but is in general a good thing, IMHOP.

MH - Cat 1 on the road, but also in my late thirties, damnit.

---

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

I thought about this. some one started another TNT thread else where and this is one thing that I think should be explored.

Seeding and waves are based upon your USAT ranking i.e. higher your ranking the faster you are in theory and therefore the more forward your wave.

Lower the ranking the further back, this would go someone way to correcting this issue.

They should also think about a time standard for the Oly trials as in T&F instead of this ITU series because you might not put up the strongest athletes.

TNT'ers that are not serious or dont have a ranking and other newbies automatically are relegated to waves further back so they'd be behind slower people with rankings who at least have experience this might go some way to correcting some of these issues along with the compulsory meeting attendance I had in that other thread and Dan reiterated or someone else did here.

There is no difference between fast AG'ers and slower pro's none so trying to seperate them would be pointless.

I think 2 good ideas have been posted, well several good ideas actually, but 2 that stick in my mind. One is going to 23&Under, 23-40 (Open) and 40+ masters. The other is having a point system like bike racing to move from beginner to novice to expert to pro to whipping everyone's butt pro.
I personally like racing against the top guys in my area, pro or AG. For me it is just about doing my best, be it first overall or 117th overall. I'm happy to finish 3114th OV if I know I put forth my best effort. Some of my best memories of races are not the ones I won but the ones that I went as fast as I possibly could have on that day or set new PR's.
If racing the retired pro's makes me faster, then lets get it on.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The only thing at stake seems to be an IMH slot. Surely the slots should go to the best in the age group, what they've done with their lives prior to the race is irrelevant. There have been threads that suggest that any age grouper with the right attitude can qualify for Kona. Well the ex pros have that attitude, they devoted their life to it, a choice we all have.

    Pros? It has never come up in Ski Racing that I know of. For master's racing you have 3 years (maybe it's 5) then you are eligible for age group masters. Everyone is eager to race against you, be friendly, and beat the living crap out of you if possible. It's all friendly.

Rick Swanger

Do you think the pros will be poed when an Age Grouper wins Kona after retiring from bicycle racing?

Bob Sigerson

Who, or what, do we race against?

And, why?

Will the L.A. Times, or Sports Illustrated be putting Dan or Emilio on the front page any time soon? Will Harold Bloom-Sterling Professor of Humanities at Yale-be writing of the deep cultural impact the two have had on life in America? If not, why have Dan and Emilio dedicated so much of their lives to this sport? To beat Mike Plumb? :),

This is a great thread because it raises the ultimate question:

"Why train and race this hard?"

To win, or to bring the joy of participation to our lives?

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Actually wasn't there supposed to be some special "Master's Pro" races or something at one time? All the old guys like Tinley, Molina, Scott and such could then race against each other even more. Sort of like Golf's Senior Tour. I'd like to see that, and then throw Bonness in to stir them up.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

I think you have nailed it. Another poster referenced the "everyone's a winner" societal trend. I find it interesting that on this forum, in regard to this thread and others, there is a split over the categorization of competitors.

I stand firmly in the "Less is More" camp. Junior, Open, Masters, Pro. End it there. It all comes down to perspective. There will always be athletes with more time to train than me. I have more opportunity to train more than some. I come from a strong running background, while some have no competitive background. I don't care.

I don't need to know how I stack up against a field of athletes between the ages of 35 and forty, that weigh between 190 and 200 lbs, can still dunk a basketball, are divorced, but happily re-married, who have had compartment-release surgery on their left (NOT RIGHT) calf within the last 3 years, and spent between $1750 and 1925 on their bike, not disc wheel, do not have a second "training" bike, average 6 hours of sleep a night, and work between 50-60 hours per week at a desk job (NOT MANUAL LABOR), blah blah blah.

I want to know how I do against my own limitations and the course within the confines of that day and the two or three disciplines required. I understand the need for defined competitors, but you start with a bunch of them at every event.

Less is more.

no shit, you can still dunk?

Nothing to be proud of Rusty. It's a cruel joke that when you want to cycle faster over the course of one hundred odd miles you hold on to more than enough fast twitch fun to make it painful.

I disagree. Age groups allow athletes to compete, (not just participate), well past a normal retirement age. My 73 year old father will bo going to the Edmonton ITU race in July. It is also the Canadian qualifer for the worlds in Queenstown in 2003, and Madiera in 2004. There are twelve spots available in each age group. If there were only three age groups, then instead of 12 spots available in each 5 year cohort, there would be 120 spots available to the 40+ age group. This event is open, so there will be thousands of AG athletes. The chance of a 73 year old finishing in the top 120 of all athletes 40 years and up is slim.



Triathlon is the only sport I can think of where the AG athletes and the Pro/Elite athletes contest their sports world championship at the same event. It is extremely cool that my father will be at the same event, and wearing the same colours, as Simon Whitfield, Jill Savege, et al.



As a Masters swimmer, my father has competed in several world championships. Many times he has been in the same event, (and been soundly thumped), by former Olympians. If former pro's decide to continue as AG athletes, then good on them. It's just one more example that athletics are not the exclusive domain of the young and beautiful. Five year age groups are a very small price to pay to give meaningful competition to athletes of all ages. Without them, we'd never see Norton Davey, Bill Bell, of Sister Madonna Buder.



My tuppence.



Paul

Paul,

I hear what you are saying and, yes triathlon is unique in this regard - that they contest the World Open/Senior/Elite/Pro(whatever you want to call it) Championships with the World Age-Group Championships at the same venue at the same time. There are positives and negatives to this in my mind.

Most other sports have seperate free standing championships for Junior Athletes, the Open Champipnships( Example: The IAAF World Athletics Championships in Paris this summer) and Master's or Age-Group championships. There is a Master's or Veteren's World Games for older athletes in a variety of sports as well.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"Five year age groups are a very small price to pay to give meaningful competition to athletes of all ages. Without them, we'd never see Norton Davey, Bill Bell, of Sister Madonna Buder."

I think you have hit on an important component of the triathlon community. If you are good enough and want to compete with the best you can; if you want to compete with your age group you can; if you want to compete with larger specimens you can; if you want to compete against the clock you can; if you just want to finish you can; if you want to compete on a $5000 bike you can; if you want to ride your sister's one-speed you can; and on and on; and no matter which group you might fit in-you can tell Bjorn Andersson that his position sucks or that Gerard doesn't know what the hell he is talking about with regarding to Cervelos-and best of all they respond in incredibly admirable fashion.

I understand, factually, the reasons we get complaints about too much money on equipment, too many divisions, clydsedales, TNT etc., but I think all of these complaints pale relative to fact that all of these things help more people get pleasure in the sport. Where else can the wannabees interact so easily and warmly with the studs?

Of course if you really want to open up a can of worms you can talk about the Europeans. There are any number of them racing AG now who while perhaps not ex Tri pros, were in state supported Olympic sports (Speed Skaters, Cross Country skiiers, Cyclists etc.), they enjoyed a "pro like" lifestyle. I think it's kind of cool having that sort of talent in the pack.

In Mt. Bike racing they have the field disected into age AND experience as well as the Pros. So, as an AGer in that sport you put yourself in the AG then the experience level, ie., Sport, Expert, beginner etc. I don't think this is a good idea for Triathlon, but it is one sport's solution to dividing up the pack. Also the Pro/Elites and Expert fields almost always race further distances and the Sport class goes longer than beginner.