Hi Sam,

Way to go in Kona! That is a great race.

Can you tell us any more about how you and your training mates saw improvements with your running from PowerCranks?

you'll get no debate from me on the value of form drills and the worthiness of a $5 elastic band. And I certainly think they are a much better investment than something which can certainly "muck up" your cycling AND which costs a fair chunk of $.

As for the other stuff, I'd say that's simply personal opinion. No right or wrong there. Just offering my $0.005 (hay-penny) on the matter. It all smacks of an appeal to authority, though I suppose I'm sort of doing a reverse appeal to authority by what I write. <shrug>

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Except that, unlike with wheels/tires, there's never been anything other than anecdotes regarding PCs.

The comparison is tires and wheels that DO give you 20w vs. a "training device" that MIGHT give you SOME increase in power, but so far has not been shown to have any positive effect over "regular" training alone and may, in fact, actually be a detriment.

Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Another anecdote is not going to rescue PCs from the scrapheap of failed "inventions"...

EDIT: I'm an idiot...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Its not really a vs arguement, You can ride good wheels and use PC for training. As far as anectdotes go, they have their place. You're never going to have an advantage in things if you don't grely somewhat on anectdotes. They almost always exist before data, and data for most things that relate to training is extremely difficult to come by if you want something definitive.

Look at power meters. I firmly believe they have a use, but show me a study that definitively proves they will make you a faster athlete?

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Styrrell

http://james-p-smith.blogspot.com/...s-final-verdict.html

Judge for yourself. My eval - they don't magically increase power. There's no substitute for the proper workouts.

I am so glad most people look at it this way! I will gladly put up another anecdote after october 13th 2012 or earlier ;-)
I still have to meet the first person (I am talking about people I know personally) that did not make progression with PCs. We PC users must have a good sense of imagination I guess ;-)
Good luck with the elastic bands!

Sam

If you knew me, I'd be that first person.

Did you read the abstract or did you just look at the results?


"...examine the effects of decoupled two-legged cycling on (1) submaximal and maximal oxygen uptake, (2) power output at 4 mmol L(-1) blood lactate concentration, (3) mean and peak power output during high intensity cycling (30 s sprint) and (4) isometric and dynamic force production of the knee extensor and flexor muscles."



You find that proof there is no benefit what so ever in a combined 180k bikeride followed by a marathon run?

I didn't necessarily want to join in on this exhausting discussion but I gave in....

According to the referenced article "The maximal voluntary isometric strength of the quadriceps and biceps femoris muscles was obtained using a training machine equipped with a force sensor. No differences were observed between the groups for changes in any variable (P = 0.15-0.90; effect size = 0.00-0.30)."

Anyone who has actually taken the time to try these cranks (and a couple folks mentioned during this thread), the key set of muscles that fatigue and get "worked" using the PCs are the hip flexors. PERHAPS if the researchers looked for maximal voluntary isometric strength of the hip flexors and not the quadriceps, they would have seen a statistically significant change after six weeks.

One final note on the "absolute" nature of science...I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry 10 years and did my tour of duty through a doctorate in chemistry...let me assure you all that there is a LOT of shit that gets published in peer reviewed journals. Let me also assure you that there are plenty of drugs on the market that have been approved for the treatment of diseases without showing statistically meaningful benefit to patients.

If someone likes using a particular training tool and they attribute it to their general greater success...so be it. It may not work for you. Great. Don't try to convince someone not to use it though or that they're wrong for using it.

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Haka Multisport, LLC

Discover your inner warrior

. Such a price to be popular

P

Actually instead of technically you are an average professional

Meltingpot, try to keep up, Sam told us that he never measured efficiency. We aren't talking about accuracy, or methods, or errors in application, he simply didn't calculate efficiency, not even once.

To claim that a particular tool increased efficiency without ever actually measuring/calculating efficiency seems, well, odd.

But please continue making personal attacks, it really adds a lot to this "cesspool for nonsense" that you've been whining about incessantly.

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Erik
Strava

Sam, apologies for assuming you had a commercial interest in powercranks. Something must have been lost in translation. After I saw powercranks listed as a "Sponsor" on your website, I assumed that you were sponsored by powercranks. Typically, a sponsored athlete has an inherent commercial interest in the items they are endorsing. Hopefully you can see why I was confused?

If all you did was express a positive experience with a product, I would have said nothing. You can say you BELIEVE powercranks improved your cycling, your running, hell, even your performance in the bedroom... I really don't care. BUT you went further, made statements that aren't supported by the facts. I was merely pointing them out. I had some fun by telling you not to be foolish, I was irreverent. There was no anger or frustration, not from me at least. I'm glad you enjoy triathlon, keep it up.

Congratulations on a great race and a good result.

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Erik
Strava

the world is a better place for the 1's and 0's you have typed over the last day or so.

Actually the placebo effect works fairly well...if it didn't, it wouldn't have to be considered in experiments.

That said, I don't think I'd want to rely on it... ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

more hysteresis and less training

Jordan, can you point me to some peer reviewed scientific articles demonstrating the performance benefits of First Endurance Optygen? I can't seem to find any.

because that is the key to going faster

??

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

this thread is so stupid.
Sam, congrats on your race.
sometimes (especially on ST), haters just gonna' hate.

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________________________________________________
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle.” - Plato

I'm not claiming that the plural of anecdote is data, nor am I claiming that PC's actually increase power or cycling efficiency. I think there are as many questions re: their benefit as there are people who swear by them.

There are some clear benefits to PC's, IMO, but they are more on the strength imbalance side of the equation. FWIW, I think when most people claim increased power, etc from PC's, they have also increased their training time, embarked on a focused training program, etc. So to claim that the power improvement came from, or as the direct use of PC's is a bit flawed.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I'm not certain that is a very well constructed study.

• Only 18 participants
• Only 1 hour per day / 5 days per week for "highly trained" cyclists?
• The hour per day was only at 70% VO2 peak.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Congrats. Nice work. I would kill for those watts and I'm probably twice your weight.

Not that it matters, but just wondering what length crank arms you raced with. With the PCs, it looks like you could have the areobars on the ground and still not be too closed off.

Congrats Sam on a great race and great Season. Trolls troll, only way to stop them is to stop feeding them.

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Member - Teamfirefighter.com

Having used them, and being pretty much tapped out on my hour power before using them, I think the reason for the claim for increased power is that for many riders, they don't really know how to put themselves to the limit to raise their functional threshold. When the going gets tough, many will throttle back. PCs just won't let you do that. If you want to get home, you'll have to persevere, and I think that physical aspect trains the mental side to endure more in future workouts. That is, it's mental. My first few weeks using them, despite being very well conditioned, were torture. My ventilation rate was out of this world just struggling to keep them going 5-10 minutes at a time. But like any muscle-specific exercise, adaptation came for pedaling independently. That adaptation manifested itself as an uncanny ability to pedal 2 independent cranks, but it didn't raise my functional threshold. I had plenty of threshold training pain prior to using them to get those adaptations established. But if had given them to my couch potato wife, I bet she would have reached her threshold limit sooner with PCs than without (NOTE - I firmly believe you can reach that limit with both PCs and normal cranks. Neither has a monopoly on getting to your 100% limit, and neither is a magic bullet that can raise you past your genetic limit).