You end u with "he said, she said" situations. How are you going to prove it, one way or the other?

And you just gave people an easy way to DQ their competitors...."Hmmm...I can't beat Joe Schmoe, but I can get him DQ'd and then get his slot."

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

If I read your post correctly, you're stating that the solution to the drafting problem is to bring back the beer garden. Right?

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

That's a fact!.

I took his comments a different way, but agree drafting in general is frustrating.

BTW, your sig race was the second most pathetic drafting race I've ever done. Check out my pics I posted of that little angel last year. I deleted my Team USA email for that race the day it showed up. You should have done the same.

We've actually been told that there is only honour amount people who have served in the military...we know at least one prominent poster has some honour.

never been close to having the right stuff to KQ.....never on my radar.....it never bothered me that I wasn't good enough or that I never would...

Apparently, many KQ'ers and AGers at Kona break the rules to get there.....

at what point do you all stop being impressed that someone KQed or Podiumed at Kona??....since "many" have doped or broken rules to get there...

I know a local athlete that podiumed at Kona but had a drafting penalty. I suspect they drafted before the penalty and perhaps after to get the podium.

not impressed...

I heard about a terrible pack of guys in the 40-44AG, but they were ahead of me. I rode clean without a problem on the rolling course and pr'd the distance plus saw a good number of drafting penalties handed out to guys ahead of me per the results (including one guy who got nabbed twice), more so than at the wtc races I've done -- but thanks for instructing me and others who qualified cleanly as to what we should have done, I'll take that to heart.

"If a coach tells his athletes that they will have to cheat to get to Kona, and many seem to think that is the case, isn't that a valid thing to complain about."

i think there's room to draw 2 conclusions from brian's comments: that he is telling his athletes that drafting, as in breaking the rules, as in getting inside that pack, is required to get to kona; or that he is telling his athletes that getting the legal draft from the pack - which means sitting at or near the back of the pack most likely - is going to be required to get to kona.

i hope it's the latter. my read is that it's the latter. brian can clarify if he wants. i don't have any problem with the 2nd interpretation.

i have a problem with the whole system. i have a problem with oversold races; courses that can't hold as many people as are allowed to enter; championship races contested on flat courses. i have a problem with a system that forces these athletes and coaches into making these kinds of decisions.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Classy. "Coach"

Illegal drafting is cheating. Hate yourself, not the people who point out that there is a rulebook.

Hi Dan, I am with you on overcrowded races. However, WTC keeps giving US the athlete options for non crowded races where you can ride mainly solo all day that almost never sell out. I will list several that I have done over the last few years:

1. IM Lake Tahoe...perfect race near zero drafting and you could register on Sun before the race
2. IM Canada Whistler....same deal (was bad on Pemberton flats in the 100 KQ slot year, but has been clean since then)
3. IM 70.3 Muskoka...you're never on a flat for mroe than 2-3 min before a hill breaks up a pack. Classic saw tooth. Never sells out
4. IM 70.3 St. Croix...drafting a non issue
5. IM 70.3 Galveston....did it multiple times, never saw a pack...lots of wind, good wave placement
6. IM South Africa....some drafting early in the race, but it breaks up and finishing position is legit
7. IM France....some drafting early in the race, but it breaks up and finishing position is legit
8. IM Placid and Tremblant (yes they have some drafting, but 6000 ft of climbing on the bike and around 1000 on the run and it all ends up with the placement that you should get
9. IM Silverman 70.3 (now dead....not enough people wanting to do a half IM with 4000 ft of climbing in an oven)

Outside of the races I have done, there was IM St. George (no longer exists), IM Muskoka (no longer exists), IM Los Cabos, IM Foreleza, IM Lanzarote, IM Taiwan, IM Malaysia where every athlete got the race they deserve, not the race a draft pack pulled them to. Do you see a trend? All the races that have elevation, you can get a fair race largely free of pelotons AND THEY DON'T SELL OUT.

See consumers, you all complain about drafting, but you sign up for the draft fests and complain!

Neither you, nor Brian Stover has done any of those races above so you don't really know what goes on during these races to make a sound judgement. Perhaps in IM Arizona, Florida and Cozumel are the main culprits of the draft fest but I have not raced those courses. I can't comment on Madison, IM Maryland, IM Louisville (I hear it is pretty clean). My understanding is that IM Barcelona, Kalmar, Copenhagen and Frankfurt can become a fairly draft oriented. I have heard varying tales about Klagenfurt in Austria. IM Brazil in Florianopolis is supposed to be worse than a UCI Protour race in Qatar. I can't comment on the Aussie races, but I heard Port Mac is pretty clean, but Melbourne was a zoo and Busso can be a draft fest. Don't know about IM Cairns. IM NZ is supposed to be pretty fair. The UK races seem to have a lot of elevation and always end up being a fair fight from everything we know.

So if you look around the IM races around the globe, there are just as many or more races where you can get a clean and fair race where you don't have to worry about the peloton stealing your road to Kona.

The flat races in the USA and Europe are the big offenders, but they are also the FIRST RACES THAT SELL OUT!!!

So who is the problem? WTC only? Or us athletes who keep paying for crowded flat races knowing that is what we will get. Sure WTC can do a better job at these flat races, but there are PLENTY of difficult topography races to pick from for the road to Kona for the clean athlete who does not want to have to even think about what to do when the peloton goes by. If you go to the higher difficulty races, its all going to shake out pretty soon anyway and you can hope that Jimmy's zebra boys get these guys penalized even before.

Finally I am on board with you that championship courses should not be on flat courses. Ideally the climbs hit you hard early. For example Tremblant 70.3 WC they should have ran the course backwards and started immediately with 8K of climbing than having that at the end. It would have totally changed the entire event. Sequencing of climbs is important. If they are all at the back end, it does not help...perfect example was IM Canada Penticton as far back as early 90's. It used to be a 70K draft fest all the way down to the Richter pass climb until the entire race blew up.

But if you don't want any drafting, just do a HITS race because no ones there.
Kidding.
Sort of.

It seems pretty clear that, for those who care, you have more than enough company on your last point being a systemic and fundamental problem (at least on many courses) that WTC will unlikely endeavor to "fix" based on profit motive. I understand that you and others choose not to do WTC races as a result. And if WTC has chosen Budapest over SA and Nice for the 2018 worlds, i suppose we'll be saying the same thing in 2018 about that year's championship race. I have not yet given up on WTC events categorically, and have already registered for IMSA and 70.3 MT next year, where I hear things may be a bit better. Savageman, among others, is on the non-WTC bucket list.

I suggest you add Wildflower to your bucket list. It has not been a Ironman brand race in around 17 years, but its pretty well the best half IM out there.

Yep!

That's a course for real athletes.

Unfortunately also one of the very few.

Ain't no drafting at Savageman.

Or Harriman, for that matter.

And definitely no drafting at AmZof.

Lots of hills + smaller fields = problem solved.
But, it's not great for business.

Everybody hates drafting. (KM and his ilk excepted)
Everybody signs up for flat races with huge fields where drafting is an issue.

I've seen the problem, and we are it.

---

float , hammer , and jog

I not know why we're still even questioning how it will be solved. The solutions are there in front of us and some can be done with a negligible impact on revenue.

Longer rolling starts or waves - off the bat 60 minutes at the front end thins the herd. Has minimal incremental cost on the organisation and does not force them to drop revenue.

I'd randomly state at an athletes briefing that there will be 8 points on the course filming - and have off-bike ref's viewing footage and assigning penalties.

Just those two alone would change people's behavior and ability to draft, firstly because the fields spread out and secondly because you don't know where you're going to be caught.

As an aside - I've no personal interest in doing a flat fast IM - the ONLY exception would be Roth and I know its a draft fest but I am quite interested in the experience.

I am interested in FR, CH, Lanzarote and anything else that would be interesting from a challenging perspective

Am with you on Harryman, have done it 2x. And with wildflower, Dev points out another iconic race whose numbers are unfortunately dropping (along with the lake water).

Japan 2015. Awesome course for a strong rider

Straw man.

Start from the beginning... The argument made by the OP was that DesertDude was unethical for advising his athlete on the realities of the dynamics of the race.

Next, Power13 and DevPaul made the argument that all drafting is cheating, and implicitly are pining away for a woebegone era where triathlon was and should be an individual TT and not a race.

Then, I uneloquently and Slowman eloquently explained that drafting is not cheating because it's not, and that as a coach DD did exactly what he should have professionally and was paid to do.

Finally, once Slowman weighed in and those arguments were solved, people started moving the goalposts, even while making the opposite arguments in the 70.3 worlds thread "tactics"and "dynamics" and "that's racing" vs. "Illegal drafting" and "sitting in pelotons" which is SO disingenuous when we all know what you really mean is "I miss the triathlon of the 1980's and can't adapt" which is never going to happen in the current operational environment.

The rules are clear... There are at least two instances where drafting is cheating... Failing to pass after entering the draft zone and failing to drop back after passing.

So to call out DD and his athlete as cheaters when in fact they are two of the most respected and virtuous people in the sport is just plain BS.

So I stand by my FU, which didn't apply to you but you're welcome to apply it to yourself if you wish, or better yet let's get a beer at a mutual race sometime soon. Your choice.

Eric

[/quote davejustdave]Classy. "Coach"

Illegal drafting is cheating. Hate yourself, not the people who point out that there is a rulebook.

[/quote]

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Your reading comprehension is really poor. I never said "all drafting is cheating." I specifically referred to drafting as defined by th rule book. I never once said that following at a legal distance was cheating....and according to the rules, it is not "drafting." The examples that Dan cited are explictly NOT examples of drafting, as defined by the rule book.

Again, words have meaning.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

That is patently false . I said "drafting is not cheating" and you said "wut?" And then things spiraled downward from there.

You may have *meant* to imply the rule book, but you never said so. You, in conjunction with Dev, just started a referendum over the perceived soul and direction of the sport. Which is a whole separate argument, which BTW has merit.

And further, the rule book does not define "drafting"... physics does that. The rule book defines "drafting penalty" which AFAIK happens in response to failing to pass or failing to drop back.

Finally, neither physics nor USAT address *intent*, which is the crux of this thread, or rather *was* until Slowman said he'd advise his athletes the same as DD and in fact would be professionally irresponsible not to, and that's when the thread title changing, post editing, and goal post moving started.

So I stand by my assertion.... Drafting is not cheating. Good day sir.

.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

[/quote]
OK, I guess you did not read many of the posts properly. I clearly said getting into a peloton is cheating. Following at legal distance is not cheating. Taking your full 15 seconds to pass or drop back is not cheating. That's all in the rules. Eric, sometimes in your haste to argue on ST you don't really go through posts properly. There is a specific definition of what drafting is in terms of a violation (not the physics of pushing less wind). That's what we're talking about. There are other scenarios where athletes get a legal slipstream. This is not what the discussion is about.

Breaking the rules the get what USAT and WTC decribe as a legal draft was what the discussion was about. Brian clearly said in the other thread that he counsels his athletes that they may have to make the choice to break the rules. This is what people some including myself took exception to. He later clarified that he did not mean break the rules and they should sit a legal distance back. Those are two different things entirely, and yes, things can get mis interpreted in text, but when I coach comes on a forum and says he counsels his athletes that they may have to make the choice to break the rules when he actually means "sit back at legal distance" where do you think the discussion will go. That's when it went sideways.

I am OK with his clarified position which is in line with what slowman was articulating which is different than the original rule breaking option.

Imagine for a second if Matt Dixon, or Brent Sutton came on here and say, "thre is a lot of illegal stuff going on and I counsel my athletes that they may have to make the personal choice to break the rules to get on the podium". What do you think would happen? If Johan Bruyneel or Bjaarne Riis said that, what would be the reaction? It's a public forum and with the amount of illegal drafting going on at racing if a prominent age grouper coach posts that he lets his age group athletes know that all that goes on and they may have to decide for themselves to break the rules to reach their goals, well what do you expect the responses might be.

If he had just posted, "well use the packs, but sit the legal distance back" then that would be super clear.

Except, actually, my OP was about dd's own words, as quoted in the first and second paragraphs - intentionally "breaking the rules."

And really this is the problem. This is the reality of WTC racing. There is really two options in many of these races for all but the fastest cyclist. One can go to the front and pull the pack and not make up any ground and potentially kill your race, or sit behind the back at below IM wattage and ignore the fact that 35 people in front of you are cheating and try to dispose of them on the run.

The other reality is that there are other races out there besides WTC races. Many of these have challenging courses and smaller fields Drafting is not much of a problem. Unfortunately there is no appointment with the tattoo artist for an M-dot afterwards.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

And yet you changed your post.

Look, if you have a problem with the way the sport is run, take it up with WTC. You can't make Brian Stover or any coach a proxy for all the things that bother you. Slowman himself said he'd say the same thing to his own athletes.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”