I just disagree that there isn't a solution. One solution is that at 70.3 Worlds they race men on one day and women on the other, just to start. Men's age groups need to be spaced 30 minutes apart. Then they need to implement technology solutions to solve drafting issues. Cameras for speeding tickets and stop lights? Why not cameras for drafting? 200 men, even of somewhat equal ability, should be able to space themselves properly in a race scenario, given no interference from other age groups. Will it be hot for the wave that starts at 12 noon? Sure it will. It's also hot in Kona. People live.

Men 30-34 was a complete and total joke the other day. Those guys rode 2:12-2:16 and Strava proves the watts were girly as all hell. Then they all get off the bike and run 1:16-1:24. That shit is just not realistic, even for top age groupers. For reference, Brad Williams posted his power file and was significantly slower on far more watts on the bike, all by himself. Brian is absolutely right in this scenario: you just have to draft to make the top 15. Good luck riding around 4W/kg by yourself and splitting 2:25 and trying to catch on the run.

I was planning to do Chatt 2017, but I am going to pass because of all this. I can't stand the drafting issue personally. I think it's bullshit and a perversion of the sport and a complete embarrassment for Jimmy R. I don't agree that it's an insurmountable problem, but I do agree with what others have said -- that we, as consumers, need to vote with our wallets.

I do not normally agree with Dev, but damn I agree here. I think desert dude is completely out of touch on the specifics -- by his own admission, he hasn't raced but two WTC races in the past half decade -- and there are races where one can and will podium clean. Puerto Rico was clean this year in my wave. Syracuse was clean. St. George wasn't so clean, but it was orders of magnitude cleaner than the last 70.3 worlds I competed in. And importantly, IMMT a few weeks ago was exceptionally honest, and the motos were on point. It's not EVERY race that this is an issue.

My opinion is that desert dude is just relaying the voices of his athletes, who are very competitive and prone to exaggeration in general. My suspicion is that they see a slight where there is none, and infer cheating when no such thing exists. That's part of being elite and competitive and delusional and so talented -- and all of those things combine such that this athlete is just not able to admit that on the day he or she was simply lesser than others. I've been there myself.

70.3 Worlds is without peer in terms of the drafting problem, and it should be addressed. But it's not every WTC race -- and to tell athletes that it is just isn't responsible or realistic -- and he's wrong to say flat out that it is. He hasn't raced enough WTC races to make such a statement, and he's wrong.

I say this as a former desert dude athlete. He's a good coach, but he's off the mark on this one in many ways.

The prevalence of drafting in WTC races is a big reason why I avoid them. I'm not in any jeopardy of being a podium finisher or going for a Kona slot, but I have my integrity.

The Muncie 70.3 last year was my first M-dot race, and I now feel like all bike times in WTC races should come with an asterisk, because even those who ride as clean as possible will still spend a lot of time in someone's draft zone, even if most of it is done legally. I burned a few matches on the bike, because when making one pass got me into the draft zone of the next person up the road, I felt compelled to push through the next pass. Admittedly, I should have had a better feeling for whether there was a moto around when I tried to ride one guy off my wheel... there wasn't, and he said "thanks for the pull." But one woman I passed actually spent a long time half-wheeling behind me, and was complaining when I wouldn't move over to let her in the middle of what would have been a 3-wide pass. Told her she already should have fallen back. Called her a damn cheater when she passed me all pissed off. And that doesn't even count the pacelines that would be the envy of most bike clubs. At least I was around to see one of the guys who was sucking my wheel get a card.

I saw evidence in the tracking at both IMLOU and IMCHOO last year of pairs of people that were clearly not competing as individuals. One was a bf and gf where I'm pretty sure he pulled her the entire way. I no longer thought their finishing together was cute. Another was a pair of besties that I used to train with, and also used to respect a lot as athletes. I respect them a bit less now.

And the repeated expansion of the draft zone by WTC makes no sense to me at all... seems like they just want to be able to arbitrarily hand out penalties, because they can't catch anywhere near all of the blatant wheelsuckers.

So I think while awesome, can we get numbers on that.

Because if it's only half the races where you can "ride clean" that's still a very serious problem. Saying you should have to pick and choose your race more appropriately is sorta letting the issue off the hook. That shouldn't be a requirement to "pick clean race venues". IM FL should be no better or worse than the cleanest IM races. Or am I being too obtuse, non real world thinking?

Eta: it's a shame that the 1st responses we get from known drafting races aren't "they need to officiate more"..it's "what did you expect". That is kinda the whole issue in a nutshell. Don't ever do "easy" bike legs for WTC events.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ST should have a "go" "no go" IM list w drafting issues.

That actually would be fun to see. If your answer to drafting "you have to pick specific IM events", that sorta defeats the whole purpose, and is still very unfortunate.

So I guess your answer is the more real world applicable than my "all races need to be clean" fantasy thought.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

No Dev. That's not a solution. That's pretending a problem doesn't exist.

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"One Line Robert"

Cool story.

Who pays for that? Who obtains the permits needed for two days of racing?

Oh right. WTC - the for profit company. Who's decisions indicate an interest in only increasing revenue.

So your last idea is really the only one that holds water.

ETA: even voting with your wallet won't work. Since it's the pointy end who has such an issue with this. And they represent exactly an inconsequential amount. Or those that care who'd actually action on this whole wallet voting. Because, Kona. The masses that fill up these races largely do not give a shit about drafting. They want a medal. And a tattoo. And they'll get those - drafting included or not.

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"One Line Robert"

Dev, I'll agree with you on this but I also agree with Brian's points sometimes a no BS conversation has to be had especially when athletes may have to enter races not through cherry picking based on above but rather family commitments, work time off, travel costs etc...

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

And when they do nothing...well, enough top athletes will agree that 70.3 worlds is a joke that shouldn't even be contested because it is such a joke -- even while it remains, in P&L terms, a successful program for WTC. For all intents and purposes, 70.3 worlds just becomes AWA Gold. In other words, a joke.

Does WTC care? Probably not. Which is one of the disadvantages of having such a company effectively control the sport.

Yes. See above edit.

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"One Line Robert"

Part of me does believe that technology and the force of social reprisal can help solve this dilemma. At Kona 2014 I was standing out on the Queen K highway -- well outside of where any spectator was allowed to be -- just SCREAMING at the packs. I was using all manner of profanity and meanness to shame the cheaters. With equal fervor, I was cheering those who were competing fairly and alone. After the race, I was thanked by numerous competitors for the support out there. What if we simply added drones and GoPros/VIRBs in support of same? It would entirely cripple the cheats.

And how did that happen? Triathletes as a community, driven by lemmings who put a $300+ premium on "you are an Ironman" have fed that beast to the point that it became the monster it is today.

This is an entirely different discussion. But of course you are right.

At some point, you are going to have to decide whether you want to be a competitive triathlete and compete in the races that matter, which are WTC races, because that's what the market has delivered -- regardless of if they are better or if they are worse, objectively speaking. Similarly, you are going to have to decide whether you want to put disc brakes on your triathlon bicycle, because the market has delivered same -- regardless of if they are better or if they are worse, objectively speaking.

Lemmings notwithstanding...

I never said this is an overall solution and that a problem does not exist. I stated that athletes who don't want to draft and play fair can choose races where it is possible to podium without drafting and that there is a road to Kona through this path. Separate from that, there is a lot of stuff that Jimmy + WTC can do at races prone to pelotons. That's a separate global problem from the personal race selection option that is available to everyone.

I wonder if the enforcement system could be amended.

Right now, if you are fortunate to avoid the sporadic presence of motorcycle officials, you are clear.

How about if in addition to that, there was a protest or foul calling system whereby competitors could report each other. Many sports rely on the honor of competitors to police themselves (golf, sailing, tennis pick up basketball).

Not sure exactly how it would work. Perhaps the aggrieved party could yell to the offender "you are drafting." If the offender stops, then no foul. If the offender persists, report the bib number to the officials for a possible hearing. Any KQs or podium places occupied by offenders would be subject to hearings where the aggrieved party would testify.

For those worrying that hours would be spent afterwards resolving this stuff, my guess is that more offenders would cease the practice when threatened by the enforcement.

Bottom line, between the T boosters, drafters and other cheaters, there is not enough honor in this sport.

That's brilliant. I mean they already use volunteers to work the events, have racers now become their own "volunteer" officials.

That would be so WTC!!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And you are a female pro with two ST accounts and should be banned accordingly.

There is no honor in this sport, and it's bloody shameful. But that's the reality of the sport we compete in.

Maybe it is time to separate the competers from the completers? An elite wave, that participants must qualify to enter, sometime after the pro waves and before the AG waves. Limited fields, rigorous enforcement. Get a drafting penalty? Lose your "elite card".

Scott

Again that's the funny part in all this. WTC is sitting back and saying, yes that's the answer. You athletes need to blame each other! You all need to race with more integrity. Forget that we can't officiate your race properly.

It's YOUR fault YOU are in this position.

(Ok I better stop...I dont want to bang on WTC too much...they are "doing the best they can")

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I remember dabbling in triathlon as a teenager......waaaay back in '89. My HS swim background put me out in front, and my worst fear was having one of the "real" triathletes I looked up to roll up behind me and find me in the draft. In those days, the "elders" would call out the drafters as they passed and shame them in the beer garden. If you wanted respect, you stayed out of the draft. No penalty tents, just honor amoung competitors.

Scott

You mean you guys don't call out drafters on course today? Why not? You should. Let's add the protest thing as starting point.

"Youngsters" don't respect the elders nowadays.

ote devashish_paul]
You mean you guys don't call out drafters on course today? Why not? You should. Let's add the protest thing as starting point.[/quote]

this is stupid for a few reasons.


1) if you're gunning for a kona slot, then you have no idea what it is like


Whether he knows what it is like or not, his premise stands. If you draft, you are cheating.

There is absolutely no need for this to be a seperate thread. You're just manipulating what has been said to support your non-valid point. DD is just saying how it is at every major wtc race and what decisions his athletes might or might not have to make.


Why is his point non-valid?


If a coach tells his athletes that they will have to cheat to get to Kona, and many seem to think that is the case, isn't that a valid thing to complain about. I agree with the OP. Based on the races I've been involved in, people at the top end don't seem to have a problem with drafting but they are likely the same ones who get outraged if someone cuts the course. Yet, they are both cheating.