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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
One comment: Complaining that everyone thinks there's a massive conspiracy is a bit of a straw man argument. Most folks really couch it in exactly how you describe above, in that there's a MASSIVE incentive to come up with "new for the sake of new" things, because NEW sells! If anything, it's not so much an organized conspiracy to try to drive "churn", as it is just the industry all chasing trends because they are afraid of being left behind.

Welcome to the world of consumer products. What you left out in this analysis was the voice of the customer. Bike companies need to respond to what their customers want....and in many cases, those customers are the dealers, not consumers. So suppliers are forced into making model year changes because their dealers demand it. Otherwise, yes, they will be left behind. Take you basic entry level MTB....not a whole lotta tech gets changed on those bikes form year to year. And most people who buy one are unaware of what Shimano components are on them and aren't buying another bike a year later. In theory, youc ould roll through a couple of years with the same model / color. But the dealers will simply stop buying the bikes because the competition, in the meantime, has come out with new colors or some minor spec variation.

Tom A. wrote:
With a bit of experience on them though, as good as they are, I have to say that SRAM didn't really put a top notch effort into their HydroR brakes. Just looking at the design of them, it's fairly obvious that they didn't take full advantage of the hyrdaulic capabilities, especially in regards to leverage.

Likely a case of "best we can do at the moment" style development....either due to tight development timelines, constricted R&D resources, limited technology, etc. LIke road discs, theya re still early in the development stage. Early adapters provide the feedback on what needs to be improved.

[quoteTom A.]But, Shimano doesn't even offer a hydraulic rim caliper...so, unless that happened, one wouldn't expect the idea to really take hold anyway. They're all in on road discs...and are the 500 lb. gorilla in components still. It's pretty easy to see the way the wind is blowing...[/quote]
Agreed.

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Oh...c'mon...you have to admit that there is some thought put into how to raise sales in what is quite the flat market, no? Why all the interest in adding E-bike lines to bike shops then? ;-)
The point of ANY consumer goods company is to find ways to raise sales. Our whole damn economy is built on this idea. But developing strategies to raise sales is not the same thing as developing strategies to force people into new technologies that they don't want / need.



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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Change brake pads? E.g. the blurb for the Swissstop green pads specifically mention braking power in the wet, whereas for the blue pads they talk about all conditions and the black pads they talk about softer alloys and less aggressive riding. If you had multiple sets of race wheels at your disposal (I wish!) then conditions might also influence a decision to switch to a wheelset with alloy braking surface instead of carbon.


Sure, but I use kool stop salmon pads on my (rim) brakes (on AL rims of course) and, in my experience, those pads outperform all others in both the wet and the dry ...

How do you adjust one's brakes for the rain in that case? (serious question)

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Sep 1, 16 6:27
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Dilbert wrote:
leegoocrap wrote:
Why are you making disc aero wheels?
BECAUSE YOU NEED THEM
But why do we need them?
BECAUSE STOPPING IS A PROBLEM IN TT'S AND TRI'S.
Why are you yelling?
BECAUSE THIS IS THE EXXXTREME SOLUTION TO THAT PROBLEM ATHLETES HAVE BEEN HAVING FOR YEARS!!!


Tri isn't a growing sport. And everyone in it has already bought wheels. How do we sell them more wheels?

HEY I HAVE AN IDEA!


Once disc break will get very well adopted and we will reach 80% of market saturation, next step will be to switch the sides of the disc brake, mount them on the right side.
Here are some selling points for Zipp, Envy,HED, Flo, Asian Magic, and other wheel manufactures etc:

2025 marketing plan ideas:

- Since all tests up to now were done in the wind tunnel only, and we never took earth rotation direction under consideration, new research shows 2W increase when moving disc to the right side. Our leading "aero gravity nano carbon graphen" experts panel proved beyond any doubt and confirmed by slow twitch pool, 2W gains are on the low side.

From 2016 all the Zipp bikes will have chain on the left side and disc brakes on the right side. Many Tri stars already confirmed that this was exactly what was missing in their Kona training and every day life.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:

It wasn't because we were trying to force new stuff down consumers' throats, it was because we thought it was a cool idea and no one was doing it yet and we could use it to bolster our exposure at the show. pretty simple.....no massive conspiracy.

You hit it right there...No one else was doing it, and it was cool for you to do it. I get it. Im a R&D guy (in biotech, not bike) and I like doing stuff that no one else has thought of before as well...but I don't think that anything you said is in contradiction to most of the posters who do not think that disc brakes for a TT bike are an optimization. The thing is that if you are loud enough in saying something, people will believe it...even if it is just not true (take the company Theranos for example). All you have to do is get noticed and you can have a new following of customers. Whether we like it or not, most people act like puppets even if we don't want them to. It does not have to be malicious and as you wrote, you have been in the bike business for over 10 years so I am sure that you know what I am talking about and have seen the same. Are disc brakes necessary? No. Are they better? I have not seen any data that would convince me to spend more money on a whole new fork, wheels, levers, cables, etc. Is it a conspiracy? Not in a negative sense, but it is a business; and like every other business it wants to sell more stuff and when that happens people who do R&D (like you and me) get to work on cool stuff. It is kind of a self propagating cycle. Ill own that.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:

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...for example, when you added rim brakes to the disc frame, how did your route the cables?


No cables.


On either?

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Also, at what yaw angle(s)


-20 to 20 degrees as per usual.


Weighted value? If so, what sort of weighting?


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...AND wind speed are those numbers in reference to above?


30.0 mph


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As you well know, stating watts without context isn't quite useful :-)


...which is why I included the speed in the original post. :-)


Doh! Sorry...I missed that in the first reading. Thanks!

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]
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sebo2000 wrote:

Once disc break will get very well adopted and we will reach 80% of market saturation, next step will be to switch the sides of the disc brake, mount them on the right side.
Here are some selling points for Zipp, Envy,HED, Flo, Asian Magic, and other wheel manufactures etc:

2025 marketing plan ideas:

- Since all tests up to now were done in the wind tunnel only, and we never took earth rotation direction under consideration, new research shows 2W increase when moving disc to the right side. Our leading "aero gravity nano carbon graphen" experts panel proved beyond any doubt and confirmed by slow twitch pool, 2W gains are on the low side.

From 2016 all the Zipp bikes will have chain on the left side and disc brakes on the right side. Many Tri stars already confirmed that this was exactly what was missing in their Kona training and every day life.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! I'm glad I set my coffee down before I read this post!

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp article up on their new wheels. http://zipp.com/about/story.php?ID=749

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Just stop.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Are you in support of discs? Just curious

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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why should he stop? he has valid questions in trying to see if there is any potential value whatsoever in adding disc brakes to Tt/Tri rigs. Damon implied that there is with his teaser statements. most of the rest of the replies on this thread are just fluff one way or the other
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
Are you in support of discs? Just curious

I am not in support of TT bikes/aero road bikes with disc brakes if those bikes are slower -- by more than a very marginal amount, e.g. ~25 grams of drag as a system -- than their rim-brake equivalent. The point of TT bikes is that they are supposed to be as fast as practically possible (and my rim brakes on Firecrests are, practically speaking, good enough). Look at all the ridiculous and expensive shit we buy to optimize these machines for the sake of a couple dozen grams of drag. The data so far has suggested that disc-brake rigs are slower and they are slower by a non immaterial amount, but these are very early data, and some of the top cycling manufacturing engineers / aero r&d guys in the world have just come on this thread and stated that these bikes are fast. They have even hinted that they might be faster. And Tom A is still prattling on about yaw sweeps and other minutia, as if they missed something in their testing. Please.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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If you've already got what you believe to be an optimal set-up for wet braking, then you wouldn't change anything! But people who generally train on flat roads, or indoors, or in dry conditions, aren't necessarily going to have a set-up that is optimised for a wet, technical course.

I ride on some pretty poor road surfaces, often in the wet, sometimes very steep (weekend ride involved a 25% climb, some hairpins on 20% descents, and a friend ending up in hospital with a broken collarbone because he locked his wheels up on one of those hairpins...) and often with lots of traffic thrown in for good measure. So I use brake pads that are great in the rain, wheels with aluminium braking surfaces (and have some Mavic wheels with exalith surfaces being delivered shortly), wide and sticky tires (also good for avoiding pinch flats on the potholes near me), and I finetune my brakes pretty frequently including adjusting cables, cleaning wheel rims, checking pads for wear and debris and occasionally sanding the pads if they've got greasy. Jordan trains a lot in California, where I assume he gets a lot less rain than I do, so his set-up may be less optimised for wet conditions.

I'm still a bit sceptical on disc brakes because with all of the above I can lock my wheels up pretty easily in any conditions, so seems to me that tire grip is my limiter, not braking power. But I'm certainly interested in trying them at some point to see whether the modulation helps to prevent wheel lock, makes braking easier on the hands on long descents and/or allows me to keep my bike's brakes in top notch condition with less maintenance. Problem is that I couldn't form a proper opinion on all of those things without an extended trial period including some long and hilly rides in different conditions which no bike shop in their right mind will let me do...

I'm also now tempted to try some Kool Stop salmons, since they appear to be half the price of the Swissstop greens that I normally use!
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [stephenj] [ In reply to ]
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stephenj wrote:
Power13 wrote:

It wasn't because we were trying to force new stuff down consumers' throats, it was because we thought it was a cool idea and no one was doing it yet and we could use it to bolster our exposure at the show. pretty simple.....no massive conspiracy.


You hit it right there...No one else was doing it, and it was cool for you to do it. I get it. Im a R&D guy (in biotech, not bike) and I like doing stuff that no one else has thought of before as well...but I don't think that anything you said is in contradiction to most of the posters who do not think that disc brakes for a TT bike are an optimization. The thing is that if you are loud enough in saying something, people will believe it...even if it is just not true (take the company Theranos for example). All you have to do is get noticed and you can have a new following of customers. Whether we like it or not, most people act like puppets even if we don't want them to. It does not have to be malicious and as you wrote, you have been in the bike business for over 10 years so I am sure that you know what I am talking about and have seen the same. Are disc brakes necessary? No. Are they better? I have not seen any data that would convince me to spend more money on a whole new fork, wheels, levers, cables, etc. Is it a conspiracy? Not in a negative sense, but it is a business; and like every other business it wants to sell more stuff and when that happens people who do R&D (like you and me) get to work on cool stuff. It is kind of a self propagating cycle. Ill own that.

Stephen J

I'll agree it is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" type of thing...what started it and what is driving it(9and where in the cycle are we?). But the reality is that road discs are here to stay, for better or worse (at least for the time being). Their long term success will depend on how / if they can be optimized for the road. I think we are still a fair way off from that. IMO, the levers are still too big / bulky and there is still the aero penalty to deal with.

Are they "necessary"? Clearly not. Are they "better"? That is still very much TBD. In certain applications, they clearly are....but whether those applications warrant their inclusion on bikes all the time has not been proven, IMO. Corss and gravel bikes? absolutley (if for no other reason than tire / wheel flexibility and choice). Road? Not so much.....yet.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Well....it looks like we can agree on something yet again.

If discs are as fast as Specialized and Damon (Cannondale) say they can be, I'm on board. I think I will hold off on buying another bike until I see what the industry does. My 808 and Super 9 brake just fine but if the disc brake bikes are faster, I want to be on that.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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to be fair, specialized came out with the tri shiv, not fast, blah blah blah integrations
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
II'm also now tempted to try some Kool Stop salmons, since they appear to be half the price of the Swissstop greens that I normally use!

You should do it, they are very very impressive brake pads. Mine slide right into shimano brake pad holders.

For road or tri use, to me, it seems that disc brakes are total overkill for riders that use AL rims (I use mavics for training and older zipp carbon/AL hybrids 808s for racing). However, if one uses all-carbon rims, well then, those are truly useless in the wet, it really does not matter which rim brake or pad you use. And then reliable braking becomes essential, which is where disc brakes come in.

However, all that said, no matter what, I don't think anyone is going to make a super aero 16 spoke 808 type front wheel which will accept disc brakes (the load on the spokes and spoke connections in the hub and rim will likely be too great during heavy braking). Not sure how much a low spoke count front wheel saves in terms of aero drag, but its gotta be something.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't Culprit try to launch a disc brake TT bike last year? Also, didn't Tririgs sorta crucify them for it(among other reasons based on overall design)?
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
And Tom A is still prattling on about yaw sweeps and other minutia, as if they missed something in their testing. Please.

I'm not asking those questions "as if they missed something in their testing". However, as we've seen from many previous examples, any results revealed need to be taken in context, which is often missing...and, can often be skewed to make things look more favorable than they actually are. Just because I like Damon and have (what I think is) a good relationship with him, it doesn't mean he gets a "pass" ;-) I'm going to pepper him with questions to make sure I understand the context.

Speaking of minutiae and context...here's one more question. When they removed the disc from the frame and added the rim caliper, did they ALSO put in a wheel with less spokes? And vice versa when going the other way? One can run LESS spokes with a rim brake setup due to the simple fact the spokes don't need to transmit the braking torque to the rim. If those "tweaks" aren't done, then you aren't comparing "best to best" of the SYSTEM. In addition, was "power to rotate" also included in the drag readings? The number of spokes is going to affect that as well, you know.

My point is to make sure when looking at things "as a system" (as Cam also points out) that each system is optimized to give it's particular best answer. To do otherwise is to, as Damon likes to call it, "mis-optimize" ;-)

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, fair points. Fewer, though, Tom -- it's fewer.
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe use a GT3 vs a Disc GT3....you know it's coming.

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
Okay, fair points. Fewer, though, Tom -- it's fewer.

Speaking of minutiae... ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Maybe use a GT3 vs a Disc GT3....you know it's coming.

Would probably be easy to add the Shimano disc interface to the side of the hub like Zipp did for their disc too ;-)

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [radaddio] [ In reply to ]
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How did I get crucified by Tri Rig??? Tri rig will never support anything other than rim brakes as long as that's he is is selling and believes in(hence no research of disc to compare with)

Also,Culprit was the first aero road disc brake bike with dual option and the First Triathlon disc brake bike. I will be riding the original Legend again starting tomorrow. Stopped riding original as I was promoting my other models for sale. (made design mistakes in first Legend and only made 1 riding sample) the first and didn't have the backing and R&D/ marketing power of these other big brands to make it accepted/standard norm which prevented me reaching my funding goals for new Legend.

I still stand by that disc brakes will be the future as there is alot of areas for improvement. (also developed hydraulic brake levers and calipers with a supplier back in 2013) I was still working within my limited ability as a small brand. Now, massive brands with purchasing power could sway zipp and others into a disc disc. says alot. When I met with them at a 2017 OEM meeting, there was NO mention of 808 disc or tri disc. I was asking them to make me samples and they eventually reached out to me again in Feb this year.....

So, yah... Wait and watch. Cervelo, Cannondale, Argon 18,e tc will all offer tri disc very very soon.




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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Up until this point, the only way to test disc brakes on an aero bike was to just pull the front brake off and mock up some sort of disc brake scenario. Thus, the headtube/leading edge area had not been optimized for use without a front brake...so testing really wasn't accurate when trying to determine if a disc brake setup was faster or slower than rim braking system.

Mat Steinmetz

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Re: Zipp Made a Disc Brake Disc Wheel! [Mat Steinmetz] [ In reply to ]
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The Boyd cycling Instagram has a photo of them working with Parlee on the new Parlee TT disc brake bike.

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