Why are you making disc aero wheels?
BECAUSE YOU NEED THEM
But why do we need them?
BECAUSE STOPPING IS A PROBLEM IN TT'S AND TRI'S.
Why are you yelling?
BECAUSE THIS IS THE EXXXTREME SOLUTION TO THAT PROBLEM ATHLETES HAVE BEEN HAVING FOR YEARS!!!

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Dang, I wanted a picture of the wheel disc with the disc rotor mounted.

There is just something so odd about that set up
that a pic would be worth something !

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I wanted to see one too! As soon as I find it, I'll add it to the main post.

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I'll see if I can get them to post one...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

YES!!!!! Please make it happen!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

not the zipp but...

Scroll to the Parlee TT bike (about 3/4 way down the page and flip to the second picture.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/liveblog-eurobike-2016-day-1_419243

"Braking on modern time trial and triathlon bikes often has been a challenge."

It has been? Hmmmmmmmmm...I've never had this problem.

Tri isn't a growing sport. And everyone in it has already bought wheels. How do we sell them more wheels?

HEY I HAVE AN IDEA!

The comments on Bike Rumor are always entertaining:


Yep. Nailed it.

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Suffer Well.

In over 10 years doing product development in the bike business, never once did I ever hear anyone come up with any idea to make products that nobody wanted just to sell more stuff. Not a single time...this myth / perception of grand puppet masters in the bike business moving consumersa round like pawns is just that....a myth.

Product guys in the bike biz just want to make cool bikes....be it a $300 entry level MTB or a $3K tri bike. They want to come up with ideas / product strategies that meet their customers demands (both consumers and dealers) as well as potentially sway them over to their bikes form the competition.

I'm 99% sure that I came out with the first disc-brake cross bike back @ the '99 Interbike show. It wasn't because we were trying to force new stuff down consumers' throats, it was because we thought it was a cool idea and no one was doing it yet and we could use it to bolster our exposure at the show. pretty simple.....no massive conspiracy.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

It lists matte white being a color option, can you ask them to post a pic of that too please? Thanks Jordan.

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ishi no ue ni san nen | Perseverance will win in the end. | Blog | @nebmot | Strava | Instagram |

So...you're admitting that you produced something just to "stand out" (whether it worked better for the purpose or not) in the hopes of selling things? Got it ;-)

My problem is when the "cool idea" is half-baked and not well thought out, and then the bandwagon effect starts because people don't want to be seen as "behind the times" in their product offerings :-/

edit:...and then we end up with things like the most common MTB wheel being a mere 12mm larger in radius than the original "standard"...and people are CONVINCED it's "better" somehow <smh>

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This was on instagram

That's the very first disc wheel Zipp ever made

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

This sounds like a euphemistically-rephrased version of what the above poster said. The impetus may be well-intentioned but the goal is still to sell new product by updating old products or developing new ones that meet consumer demand.

I guess it depends on what kind of courses you race and in what kind of weather.
The world is a big place.

My point was more than to the extent there are braking issues, they aren't necessarily unique to tri bikes and the most modern bikes (and I assume they really mean wheels not bikes) and/or brakes themselves have tended to address these issues

If rim brakes stay around, then companies need to get rid of the the bottom bracket brake.

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I'm happy to see Zipp offering this disc brake disc wheel.

We just got back from the wind tunnel. I can't share data, but I can share a trend.

It’s tricky to make a blanket statement like “discs have more drag,” because testing different bikes gives different results. For example, a bike optimized for rim brakes, by definition isn’t optimized for disc brakes, so sticking some discs on it doesn’t represent the performance you’d expect from a bike designed from the ground up as a disc brake bike. Same in reverse: we did some research in the wind tunnel. Starting with a disc brake bike, removing the front disc brake (caliper & rotor) saved about 1.5 Watts of air power (@30 mph). Removing the rear saved another 1.5 Watts. Adding a rear rim brake (under BB) added about 2 Watts. Adding a TriRig front brake added another 1.5 Watts. Net in this experiment, the rim brakes had about 0.5 Watts more drag. So disc brakes can have more or less drag than rim brakes, depending on the bike chosen for the test.


If you care about braking, consider disc brakes. If you care about speed, consider disc brakes.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Obviously, this isn't Zipp but Enve has apparently done some of that with their new 4.5 AR offering: http://www.bicycling.com/...es-45-ar-disc-wheels

- you are assuming that, for a disc, that a change in shape would be beneficial. A disc might be the sort of wheel where the shape is the shape, whether it's rim brake or disc brake. Now, certainly, this might have just been the most expeditious solution, and maybe eventually there will a rotor-optimized disc, but I think the fact that Zipp "just stuck a rotor" on a Super9 shouldn't imply that somehow it's inferior.

- the hub is necessarily unique. Zipp discs are stressed skin over a nomex core. They are not - unlike HED/FLO - spoke wheels with a carbon cover. The disc is molded in the autoclave, and there is a fuzzy logic machine that constantly adjusts the X-Y position of the hub as the slow epoxy they use to bond it into the disc cures. So they can't just "slap a disc brake hub" in the disc wheel. That's not how Zipp discs are made. Further, having the braking at the rotor on the hub rather than the rim will introduce a whole host of different stresses into this wheel that would almost certainly (I'll have to check, but i'd be shocked if this wasn't the case) require layup changes to reinforce the area around the hub. You obviously need to have reinforcements in this area on the driveside because of drivetrain stress, but now you'll have even more stress and new stresses on the non-drive side. I'd be very surprised if even using the same shape, there were not some layup changes to accommodate disc braking.

I say all of this as someone who really has no desire for disc brakes. I think the NSW braking surface paired with hydraulic rim brakes with good pads is phenomenal. I can already easily lock up both wheels. I simply cannot imagine needing more braking power than what I have. So I am not a fan of the seemingly inevitable shift towards disc brakes. That said, I am open minded. But given how large (or, rather, small) Dimond is, I don't expect that I'll be on disc brakes anytime in the foreseeable future. I just don't see it as a wise investment of time/resources on Dimond's part.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

 I'm sure this is what led to my first stop of the day, about 25mi into the bike, where my brakes that have grabbed fine the day before the race no longer did much more than modulate my speed; I could no longer actually stop, just slow down and not even that well.

source: http://blog.rappstar.com/2016/06/gratitude_17.html

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I'm disappointed by the lack of "Yo Dawg" memes in this thread :(

@ Tom A. - Nope, not admitting anything like that. The bike we did was prototype and never meant to go into production. It was a complete Frankenbike. As noted, we did it to raise our exposure at Interbike. But pssst...dirty little secret - consumer product companies make money by selling things and they need to find ways to get the attention of consumers. That is not, however, a conspiracy to force new technologies on people.

@ gabbiev - Woe to the company that ignores consumer demand in favor of what they deem to be "better". The world of consumer products is filled with failed products that were technically "better" than the competitors, but they weren't want consumers wanted. I know I have made products that were "better" than the competition, but because they did not meet consumers' expectations, they failed.

Matter of fact, I am going through a similar issue right now...we have been working on a new consumer medical product adn our customers want to have BT control for it. It is just a stoopid idea....they can control the unit easier and faster through the buttons that are already on it. Why bother reaching into your pocket, finding your phone, unlocking it, scrolling through your apps, opening the app and then adjusting the device. Clearly, just reacing out and pushin buttons is easier and simpler.....but it won't matter. I'm either gonna need to add BT functionality or walk away form the product idea. *shrugs*

Personally, I think the *right* solution in this debate is hydraulic rim calipers. What people are really "in love" with is not the discs, it is the light tough and action of hydraulics. people are focusing on the mechanism and not the technology. But no one wants to hear that....consumers are demanding discs and suppliers are being forced to respond. Go see how many companies spec'd the SRAM Red hydraulic rim calipers....I don;t think any did. Not because it wasn't a "better" solution (it was) but because consumers weren't going to buy them.

Again, there is no massive conspiracy to force people to buy new stuff. Bike companies are more concerned about getting consumers to buy their stuff over the competitions' than trying to come up with massive schemes to buy new stuff.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Which is why I say you always need to compare "best in class to best in class"...for example, when you added rim brakes to the disc frame, how did your route the cables?

Also, at what yaw angle(s) AND wind speed are those numbers in reference to above? As you well know, stating watts without context isn't quite useful :-)

As an aside, assuming one had free reign to integrate as much as possible, which do you think would be lower drag: a bike designed around separate braking discs, or one built around integral rim calipers?

Personally, I'd put my money on the system built around integrated, hydraulically actuated rim brakes (i.e. hidden in the fork and frame with internal hydraulic connections)...but, maybe that's just me ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

It's exciting seeing a number of manufacturers releasing disc brake wheel sets and now discs.

I'd like to echo what Damon said with regards to testing and trends that we have seen in the tunnel as well - which are very similar.

People see a disc brake bike and focus in on the visual appearance of a rotor. What is often neglected is what comprises a rim brake system - brake shoes, brake pads, the caliper itself, cable housing, and other small parts. Like Damon mentioned, those pieces add drag to the overall system of the bike. Typical mounting points for a rim brake bike can be optimized on a disc brake bike - similar to how people have mentioned a rim can be optimized without a brake track. It's important to look at the bike as a system - technical limits are pushed with that in mind. Preconceived notions of how things might perform aerodynamically are some of the most exciting things to challenge and test in the tunnel - often times you are surprised and learn a lot! You never know until you try things.

One comment: Complaining that everyone thinks there's a massive conspiracy is a bit of a straw man argument. Most folks really couch it in exactly how you describe above, in that there's a MASSIVE incentive to come up with "new for the sake of new" things, because NEW sells! If anything, it's not so much an organized conspiracy to try to drive "churn", as it is just the industry all chasing trends because they are afraid of being left behind.



I completely agree with you here. In fact, I voted with my dollars. I had the Magura C setup on my Soloist that was stolen, and I just recently picked up a set of S700 shifters and HydroR brakes for my Stinner.



With a bit of experience on them though, as good as they are, I have to say that SRAM didn't really put a top notch effort into their HydroR brakes. Just looking at the design of them, it's fairly obvious that they didn't take full advantage of the hyrdaulic capabilities, especially in regards to leverage. The Maguras are much better in that regard IMHO. In the end, they operate pretty much just like a really WELL set up dual pivot brake...it's just that the actuation is a bit more consistent over time. It's almost as if they didn't want them to work TOO well...oh, and since they used the same levers as they do for the disc models (open system), that means that they needlessly have a reservoir in the levers (the calipers aren't self-adjusting like a disc caliper, and thus the internal volume doesn't change over time). That results in an unnecessarily large "dead stroke" where the lever has to be pulled back enough to close off the reservoir port before the brakes start actuating. That's not needed in a closed system, and is quite noticeable. I actually preferred the feel of the closed Magura C system actuated with cable brake levers in that regard. In other words, as good as they are, there's a LOT of room for improvement.

But, Shimano doesn't even offer a hydraulic rim caliper...so, unless that happened, one wouldn't expect the idea to really take hold anyway. They're all in on road discs...and are the 500 lb. gorilla in components still. It's pretty easy to see the way the wind is blowing...



Oh...c'mon...you have to admit that there is some thought put into how to raise sales in what is quite the flat market, no? Why all the interest in adding E-bike lines to bike shops then? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Cam, I am so glad you and Damon have come on here and responded to this awesome thread. I love seeing engineers and product designers on here.

After seeing Zipp release the Super 9 Disc Brake Disc wheel, I believe the next Cervelo bike, the P6, will be a disc brake bike.

Wheel, bike, and component manufacturers have to talk to each other so that everything works an no one is left out with a crazy product that won't fit on a bike. I'm sure people will tell me I'm wrong but hear me out.

Specialized designed the Venge Vias to have disc brakes. They weren't sure where the UCI was going to go with their decision so they added rim brakes to the Venge. Now, you guys have released the Venge with the disc brakes it was supposed to have from the beginning.

Next, Parlee comes out with a tri bike that has a disc brake on a HED Jet disc and was designed to use disc brakes. This bike just won the Eurobike Gold Award for 2016.

Zipp started converting their wheels to disc brakes earlier this year and ENVE added a bunch of wheels with discs too.

The components are in place from Shimano and SRAM to add discs to frames. All that's left is the frame.

I believe the reason the P6 is delayed is because of disc brakes. I think the updated P5-x will be the last rim brake bike from Cervelo for a while.

I know you can't say, but I bet Specialized's next tri bike has disc brakes too.

Zipp adding their TT/Tri disc wheel to discs is the final piece of the wheel puzzle. I can't wait to see what Cervelo and Specialized come out with next. Everyone is hating on discs but now we have Damon Rinard and Cam Piper telling us that it's not as bad as we think. Exciting times ahead!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Odd bad or odd good?

(correct answer Odd GOOD!)

While I'm a huge proponent of disc brakes on road (and tri) bikes, even I'm still out on whether they're worthwhile on the rear. Given the weight shift that happens during braking, I'm not convinced they are needed on the rear. BUT, since they appear to be becoming available, I'd probably go for one over a rim brake one, because of the increase reliability in all weather conditions, the lack of wear on the rim etc etc.

Actually, disc brakes on the rear are good. I just talked myself into wanting them at both ends of the bike.

Now we can move onto what size they should be at each end. Small on the rear, and large on the front, for equal heat dissipation (more weight on the front wheel means that more braking force at the front has greater effect, and more force equals more heat. A larger disc rotor heats up less and dissipates heat better.

but a pic sure would be nice too ;-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Exactly!

Without careful testing, who would believe that a particular custom steel bike with carefully chosen (and oriented) tubing, strategically routed cabling, and a round seat post could perform as well as it does with a rider on board? Right? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

From my understanding, it's more about the modulation than stopping power.

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Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook

Rappstar, come ride with me all winter long (and lotsa days in the summer) here in New Zealand, and you'll sell your wife into slavery to get disc brakes on all your bikes.

On a warm dry sunny days with flowers scenting the air and unicorns frolicking in the fields, rim brakes work. No argument there.

On days that don't conform with the statement above, I'll take disc brakes every time.

As an example (to repeat what I've reported before) I give one of my own accidents as evidence. (note that I'm a mechanical engineer and keep my bikes clean and well maintained)

I rode 200m from the ferry to my office, in the rain. My building had a covered laneway to the neighbours building. I entered the covered laneway and rode about 15m, doing just 12kph. A car exited the underground car park when the barrier arm lifted and drove straight into my path. The side of the car was about 15-18m from me when the video showed that I grabbed all the brakes I could. The rim brakes had negligible effect for several metres. Then the rim dried and my panic braking locked the front wheel. In the video you could see it lock and slide about 3 metres on the wet concrete. Then it finally hit the dry concrete and I did a lovely endo onto the car. Upside down, my head hit the wheel of the car and my ribs hit the top of the quarter panel above. I slumped to the ground, unconscious. I awoke 20-30 seconds later, in a heap, tangled in my bike. The video shows the driver standing beside me, wondering if I was dead. As I slowly came round, he asked how I was, and helped untangle me. I slowly got up, and ended up making my way to the nearby clinic. Concussion and 4 broken ribs. Just 4 days before my annual holiday. Bugger.

I would have given just about anything to have gained those first few metres of effective braking, rather than waiting for the brake pads to squeegee the water and road grime off the rims. In addition to that, being able to better modulate disc brakes, I could probably have avoided the locked brake part of the accident as well. Watching the video of the accident, I am 100% sure that I would have avoided even hitting the car, if my bike had hydraulic disc brakes. 12kph, broken body and broken bike, all because of the second best bicycle braking system. NFG.

I won't waste our time describing some of the other wet weather braking situations that have taken years off my life, but rest assured, I for one love disc brakes. They don't work much better in the dry, but they work a shit ton better when the unicorns are in the barn keeping dry.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Which is a perfect argument for hydraulically actuated rim brakes...especially on a metallic braking surface :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Tom,

You may have talked about this in other threads, but have you tested disc brakes? I haven't tried them yet but would love to.

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Yes. I have them on some of my own bikes and have also test ridden both the SRAM And Shimano road models. One of my bikes is set up as an "all-road" bike (SRAM Red w/TRP Spyres & Jagwire Link cable housings) and gets ridden on pavement quite often. I feel I'm pretty aware of the pluses and minuses of that technology application for road use...and to be honest, MANY of the minuses are overlooked and minimized when this is discussed.

By comparison, my road bike currently has SRAM HydroR rim calipers braking on Hed Jet Turbine equipped rims. THAT is a sweet performing setup...and is possible for nearly ANY bike.

Edit: But...let me get this straight...you've never tried disc brakes for road applications, and yet you're writing in this thread about how you think all of this such a great idea?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Is there a change to the rim brake super 9 carbon clincher? the articles seem to say its a new wheel but I can not find out what has changed for the rim brake version.

Nothing has changed on the rim brake Super 9.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Serious question: what is the big advantage of hydro rim brakes over top notch mechanical rim brakes? (assuming the same pads and the same metallic rim surface ... ).

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Lighter touch, better modulation....arguably mor power, but I don't really tout that as an adamant for the road unless you are a heavier rider.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

^^^What he said^^^

To which, I'll add that a lot if it depends on the rest of the setup of the cable system...and really opened my eyes to what most people refer to as "modulation" is really a light lever feel prior to the pads making contact. It's possible to get that with a cable system, but it's harder to keep it that way.

The consistency of the lever feel, especially over time or after exposure to the elements, is what stands out to me. Oh, and I also noticed that on my bike, which is designed for a full cable housing to the rear brake, the rear ended up much better than when it was cable actuated. That was most likely due to the extra friction of the full housing fir the cable. The hydraulic hose is obviously much more tolerant of less than ideal control routing.

That said, the power is very nice. IME, the Maguras were slightly better in that regard as compared to the SRAM setup, but even that is every bit as good as the best cable actuated options.

One word of caution when comparing lever feel between braking systems...you really need to do it while moving. Most people squeeze a brake lever on a bike when stationary and judge how powerful it us by how "solid" it feels. Discs typically feel much firmer in that regard. IME, that doesn't necessarily transfer to how they feel when actually stopping...and might do be part of the reason for the perception that disc calipers are SOOO much more powerful than rim calipers.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

User error. I could have had the same experience if I ended up getting oil or grease on my rotors with a disc set up. In Tremblant, knowing it was going to rain, I adjusted my brakes accordingly and had superior braking all day long.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Hi Tom,



Agreed. This is the reason we conducted the test.


No cables.


-20 to 20 degrees as per usual.


30.0 mph



...which is why I included the speed in the original post. :-)


Wait and see. ;-)

Cheers,
Damon

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

This will be interesting, but unless it is something silly in gains I doubt I will be tempted to upgrade. While discs look better on MTBs and CX bikes, it looks off on a Time Trial/tri bike and for that matter road as well. Now, that is totally subjective, but how something looks influences my decisions as much as how it performs. That being said, I have zero issues with my mechanical rim brakes on any of my bikes and while I would cede that my UP stops better than my DA, AR or Seven on pavement (no matter the wheels) it is more a function of running 2.1" tires not the Spyre calipers and 160mm rotors.

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My YouTubes

I know how one adjusts one's braking during rain, but how do adjust your brakes for rain?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Change brake pads? E.g. the blurb for the Swissstop green pads specifically mention braking power in the wet, whereas for the blue pads they talk about all conditions and the black pads they talk about softer alloys and less aggressive riding. If you had multiple sets of race wheels at your disposal (I wish!) then conditions might also influence a decision to switch to a wheelset with alloy braking surface instead of carbon.

Welcome to the world of consumer products. What you left out in this analysis was the voice of the customer. Bike companies need to respond to what their customers want....and in many cases, those customers are the dealers, not consumers. So suppliers are forced into making model year changes because their dealers demand it. Otherwise, yes, they will be left behind. Take you basic entry level MTB....not a whole lotta tech gets changed on those bikes form year to year. And most people who buy one are unaware of what Shimano components are on them and aren't buying another bike a year later. In theory, youc ould roll through a couple of years with the same model / color. But the dealers will simply stop buying the bikes because the competition, in the meantime, has come out with new colors or some minor spec variation.


Likely a case of "best we can do at the moment" style development....either due to tight development timelines, constricted R&D resources, limited technology, etc. LIke road discs, theya re still early in the development stage. Early adapters provide the feedback on what needs to be improved.

[quoteTom A.]But, Shimano doesn't even offer a hydraulic rim caliper...so, unless that happened, one wouldn't expect the idea to really take hold anyway. They're all in on road discs...and are the 500 lb. gorilla in components still. It's pretty easy to see the way the wind is blowing...[/quote]
Agreed.

The point of ANY consumer goods company is to find ways to raise sales. Our whole damn economy is built on this idea. But developing strategies to raise sales is not the same thing as developing strategies to force people into new technologies that they don't want / need.



</html

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Sure, but I use kool stop salmon pads on my (rim) brakes (on AL rims of course) and, in my experience, those pads outperform all others in both the wet and the dry ...

How do you adjust one's brakes for the rain in that case? (serious question)

---

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--

Once disc break will get very well adopted and we will reach 80% of market saturation, next step will be to switch the sides of the disc brake, mount them on the right side.
Here are some selling points for Zipp, Envy,HED, Flo, Asian Magic, and other wheel manufactures etc:

2025 marketing plan ideas:

- Since all tests up to now were done in the wind tunnel only, and we never took earth rotation direction under consideration, new research shows 2W increase when moving disc to the right side. Our leading "aero gravity nano carbon graphen" experts panel proved beyond any doubt and confirmed by slow twitch pool, 2W gains are on the low side.

From 2016 all the Zipp bikes will have chain on the left side and disc brakes on the right side. Many Tri stars already confirmed that this was exactly what was missing in their Kona training and every day life.

You hit it right there...No one else was doing it, and it was cool for you to do it. I get it. Im a R&D guy (in biotech, not bike) and I like doing stuff that no one else has thought of before as well...but I don't think that anything you said is in contradiction to most of the posters who do not think that disc brakes for a TT bike are an optimization. The thing is that if you are loud enough in saying something, people will believe it...even if it is just not true (take the company Theranos for example). All you have to do is get noticed and you can have a new following of customers. Whether we like it or not, most people act like puppets even if we don't want them to. It does not have to be malicious and as you wrote, you have been in the bike business for over 10 years so I am sure that you know what I am talking about and have seen the same. Are disc brakes necessary? No. Are they better? I have not seen any data that would convince me to spend more money on a whole new fork, wheels, levers, cables, etc. Is it a conspiracy? Not in a negative sense, but it is a business; and like every other business it wants to sell more stuff and when that happens people who do R&D (like you and me) get to work on cool stuff. It is kind of a self propagating cycle. Ill own that.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

On either?



Weighted value? If so, what sort of weighting?




Doh! Sorry...I missed that in the first reading. Thanks!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! I'm glad I set my coffee down before I read this post!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Zipp article up on their new wheels. http://zipp.com/about/story.php?ID=749

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Just stop.

Are you in support of discs? Just curious

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why should he stop? he has valid questions in trying to see if there is any potential value whatsoever in adding disc brakes to Tt/Tri rigs. Damon implied that there is with his teaser statements. most of the rest of the replies on this thread are just fluff one way or the other

I am not in support of TT bikes/aero road bikes with disc brakes if those bikes are slower -- by more than a very marginal amount, e.g. ~25 grams of drag as a system -- than their rim-brake equivalent. The point of TT bikes is that they are supposed to be as fast as practically possible (and my rim brakes on Firecrests are, practically speaking, good enough). Look at all the ridiculous and expensive shit we buy to optimize these machines for the sake of a couple dozen grams of drag. The data so far has suggested that disc-brake rigs are slower and they are slower by a non immaterial amount, but these are very early data, and some of the top cycling manufacturing engineers / aero r&d guys in the world have just come on this thread and stated that these bikes are fast. They have even hinted that they might be faster. And Tom A is still prattling on about yaw sweeps and other minutia, as if they missed something in their testing. Please.

If you've already got what you believe to be an optimal set-up for wet braking, then you wouldn't change anything! But people who generally train on flat roads, or indoors, or in dry conditions, aren't necessarily going to have a set-up that is optimised for a wet, technical course.

I ride on some pretty poor road surfaces, often in the wet, sometimes very steep (weekend ride involved a 25% climb, some hairpins on 20% descents, and a friend ending up in hospital with a broken collarbone because he locked his wheels up on one of those hairpins...) and often with lots of traffic thrown in for good measure. So I use brake pads that are great in the rain, wheels with aluminium braking surfaces (and have some Mavic wheels with exalith surfaces being delivered shortly), wide and sticky tires (also good for avoiding pinch flats on the potholes near me), and I finetune my brakes pretty frequently including adjusting cables, cleaning wheel rims, checking pads for wear and debris and occasionally sanding the pads if they've got greasy. Jordan trains a lot in California, where I assume he gets a lot less rain than I do, so his set-up may be less optimised for wet conditions.

I'm still a bit sceptical on disc brakes because with all of the above I can lock my wheels up pretty easily in any conditions, so seems to me that tire grip is my limiter, not braking power. But I'm certainly interested in trying them at some point to see whether the modulation helps to prevent wheel lock, makes braking easier on the hands on long descents and/or allows me to keep my bike's brakes in top notch condition with less maintenance. Problem is that I couldn't form a proper opinion on all of those things without an extended trial period including some long and hilly rides in different conditions which no bike shop in their right mind will let me do...

I'm also now tempted to try some Kool Stop salmons, since they appear to be half the price of the Swissstop greens that I normally use!

I'll agree it is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" type of thing...what started it and what is driving it(9and where in the cycle are we?). But the reality is that road discs are here to stay, for better or worse (at least for the time being). Their long term success will depend on how / if they can be optimized for the road. I think we are still a fair way off from that. IMO, the levers are still too big / bulky and there is still the aero penalty to deal with.

Are they "necessary"? Clearly not. Are they "better"? That is still very much TBD. In certain applications, they clearly are....but whether those applications warrant their inclusion on bikes all the time has not been proven, IMO. Corss and gravel bikes? absolutley (if for no other reason than tire / wheel flexibility and choice). Road? Not so much.....yet.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

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Well....it looks like we can agree on something yet again.

If discs are as fast as Specialized and Damon (Cannondale) say they can be, I'm on board. I think I will hold off on buying another bike until I see what the industry does. My 808 and Super 9 brake just fine but if the disc brake bikes are faster, I want to be on that.

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to be fair, specialized came out with the tri shiv, not fast, blah blah blah integrations

You should do it, they are very very impressive brake pads. Mine slide right into shimano brake pad holders.

For road or tri use, to me, it seems that disc brakes are total overkill for riders that use AL rims (I use mavics for training and older zipp carbon/AL hybrids 808s for racing). However, if one uses all-carbon rims, well then, those are truly useless in the wet, it really does not matter which rim brake or pad you use. And then reliable braking becomes essential, which is where disc brakes come in.

However, all that said, no matter what, I don't think anyone is going to make a super aero 16 spoke 808 type front wheel which will accept disc brakes (the load on the spokes and spoke connections in the hub and rim will likely be too great during heavy braking). Not sure how much a low spoke count front wheel saves in terms of aero drag, but its gotta be something.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Didn't Culprit try to launch a disc brake TT bike last year? Also, didn't Tririgs sorta crucify them for it(among other reasons based on overall design)?

I'm not asking those questions "as if they missed something in their testing". However, as we've seen from many previous examples, any results revealed need to be taken in context, which is often missing...and, can often be skewed to make things look more favorable than they actually are. Just because I like Damon and have (what I think is) a good relationship with him, it doesn't mean he gets a "pass" ;-) I'm going to pepper him with questions to make sure I understand the context.

Speaking of minutiae and context...here's one more question. When they removed the disc from the frame and added the rim caliper, did they ALSO put in a wheel with less spokes? And vice versa when going the other way? One can run LESS spokes with a rim brake setup due to the simple fact the spokes don't need to transmit the braking torque to the rim. If those "tweaks" aren't done, then you aren't comparing "best to best" of the SYSTEM. In addition, was "power to rotate" also included in the drag readings? The number of spokes is going to affect that as well, you know.

My point is to make sure when looking at things "as a system" (as Cam also points out) that each system is optimized to give it's particular best answer. To do otherwise is to, as Damon likes to call it, "mis-optimize" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Okay, fair points. Fewer, though, Tom -- it's fewer.

Maybe use a GT3 vs a Disc GT3....you know it's coming.

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My YouTubes

Speaking of minutiae... ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Would probably be easy to add the Shimano disc interface to the side of the hub like Zipp did for their disc too ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

How did I get crucified by Tri Rig??? Tri rig will never support anything other than rim brakes as long as that's he is is selling and believes in(hence no research of disc to compare with)

Also,Culprit was the first aero road disc brake bike with dual option and the First Triathlon disc brake bike. I will be riding the original Legend again starting tomorrow. Stopped riding original as I was promoting my other models for sale. (made design mistakes in first Legend and only made 1 riding sample) the first and didn't have the backing and R&D/ marketing power of these other big brands to make it accepted/standard norm which prevented me reaching my funding goals for new Legend.

I still stand by that disc brakes will be the future as there is alot of areas for improvement. (also developed hydraulic brake levers and calipers with a supplier back in 2013) I was still working within my limited ability as a small brand. Now, massive brands with purchasing power could sway zipp and others into a disc disc. says alot. When I met with them at a 2017 OEM meeting, there was NO mention of 808 disc or tri disc. I was asking them to make me samples and they eventually reached out to me again in Feb this year.....

So, yah... Wait and watch. Cervelo, Cannondale, Argon 18,e tc will all offer tri disc very very soon.

Up until this point, the only way to test disc brakes on an aero bike was to just pull the front brake off and mock up some sort of disc brake scenario. Thus, the headtube/leading edge area had not been optimized for use without a front brake...so testing really wasn't accurate when trying to determine if a disc brake setup was faster or slower than rim braking system.

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Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook

The Boyd cycling Instagram has a photo of them working with Parlee on the new Parlee TT disc brake bike.

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The Magura brakes have a relatively short travel. I think this is an artifact of design - for logical and illogical reasons. One logical reason is that they could easily generate way too much force if they had a lot of travel and you ran them "tight." as Tom A. said, I don't think there is a GREAT hydraulic rim break yet. But basically, from fully closed to fully open, the Maguras do not move as much as other brakes. As a result - and this is consistent talking to most other folks I know who run these brakes - most people tend to run them "looser" on race day (and good conditions) out of concern about potential for brake rub. On a more technical course or for training or in the rain, I tend to run them tighter - meaning pads hit the rim more quickly.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Understood and agreed. That's what I was suggesting by "early data" -- not just that the data were premature, but that the products from which they were derived were as well.

Ah, gotcha.

That is kind of troubling and amazing that the maguras brakes have these issues. That would be a deal killer for me. Someday you gotta try one of these, no such problems:

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Funny you mention that. I very strongly considered using Craig's brakes on my Dimond. I spoke with him right after he launched that brake, and he came up to Dan's to meet us. We all live pretty close to each other. Dan and I encouraged Craig to reach out to various bike companies to try to OEM that brake or to at least have it as a target "aftermarket" upgrade. Basically, to do exactly what Nick Salazar has done with the Tririg Omega.

Unfortunately, Craig basically was exclusively focused on competing with ZeroGravity and AX and Tune on the whole "it's super light!" category and had absolutely zero interest in trying to re-work the EE into an aero caliper that would work for TT bikes. It's too bad, because I think he would have sold about 100x as many brakes if he had embraced what that brake clearly "wanted" to be - a TT brake - as oppose to what he had decided it "should" be - a weight-weenie brake. For example, I told him to make a dual-post version of that brake for bikes like the Transition (which would have then worked on the new Shiv). No interest. Why he wanted to take on an absurdly small niche rather than competing with Tektro on a market that is substantially larger is beyond me... I still think he could do well with some slight modifications to that brake. But not if he doesn't have the interest. The market was never going to come to him, regardless of what he might have wished/believed...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

But Mat, what if we embed something like these in the frame and fork somewhere? i.e. take advantage of the possibilites of hydraulic routing? Wouldn't those same leading edge improvements be possible?



This isn't necessarily directed at you, but I find it interesting that a lot of people are willing to give current disc brake offerings a "pass" with the caveat that there's a lot more development to go on the technology as it applies to road applications. Honestly, the SAME can be said for mechanisms that use the outer edge of the rim as the braking disc. Yeah, it's been done for a LONG time...but to think that there are no technological improvements to go there as well is short-sighted.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That is odd.

In any case, tthings are gonna change big time now for this brake design:

http://www.canecreek.com/...ip-with-eecycleworks

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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To be fair, I've never had my hands on one of these (they are quite expensive IIRC)...but there's something about all those pivots that makes my mechanical engineering brain cringe a bit...the same thing happens when I look at MTB rear suspensions that are basically a single-pivot swingarm with a bunch of additional rockers and pivots to do the shock actuation ;-)

Hopefully the Cane Creek collaboration will drop the price of them a bit too...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hi Tom,

Right, no cables on the rim brakes. The disc calipers' hoses were included however.



Straight up average, but it's a pretty consistent offset across the sweep.

Cheers,
Damon

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

That's encouraging. Maybe Craig finally got tired - after five+ years - of selling to the niche. And also may have been forced to confront the reality that more and more and more bikes are integrating their brakes - especially at the highest end - and that an already small niche was shrinking even further.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Damon,

What causes more drag, the rotor or the caliper?

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Ha, good one. That was step 1 when I was in Magura's office. Too much frontal area.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

I could tell you, but then I'd have to ...

;-)

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

This is all I can offer :)

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Literally just nuggets in a wallet?

https://www.reddit.com/...nuggets_in_a_wallet/

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

X3.

A happy family.

I was about to detail exactly what our good friend Publius wrote. But I'll just pile on to say I agree entirely with every word written. How about - lets wait and see? We're debating and we don't even know what the industry has done!

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"One Line Robert"

hahaha. Hurry up and release a disc brake tri bike and amaze us all with the drag numbers!

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A miracle must have occurred today. wsrobert, PubliusValerius, and BryanD are all in agreement. Specialized's Cam Piper and Cannondale's Damon Rinard tease us with disc brake tri bikes being faster. Zipp releases a Super 9 Disc with disc brakes. If you are not excited, you should be!

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Well, not EXACTLY that...but the general concept. There would need to be a slight "re-imagining" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I had Magura brakes like that on my Slingshot MTB way back in the 90's. They are basically rectangular "brake blocks" where the brake pad moves sideways from the brake base when you squeeze the brake levers. Pretty simple really.

A few years ago, I posted here somewhere my idea that Magura should develop a standard hydraulic "brake block" that could be bolted into frames and forks. Frame manufacturers could design their frames and forks so that the transition from the frame/fork to the brake blocks was fully seamless and integrated. See, for example, the Trek Speed Concept fork below.

For the rear brake, frame manufacturers would be free to design their frame to integrate the brake block wherever they saw fit... behind the BB in the chainstays, in the seatstays, etc.

But I guess there is a reason I'm not a bike frame engineer.

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Interesting; I had that idea too. I think the Cheetah Cat might have developed it? Using hydraulic hose makes convoluted routeing much easier, without losing efficiency.

Also, with disc brakes, the Culprit bike could have designed an aero Lefty(c) style 'fork' for improved performance. With fast, fat tyres providing suspension, the fork could be very stiff. No need to take the wheel off for punctures either.

My thoughts as well...and that's also (the Speed Concept integration) what I'm talking about when comparing "best in class" versions of brake integration, in regards to rim brakes and aero drag.

So...people are telling me that those 2 little brake pads on that fork cause more drag than a braking disc, a disc caliper of some sort, and extra spokes in the wheel?

I'm not buying THAT until I'm shown the tests and results...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yes, exactly, and that seems an issue just for the front brake. On the rear, you could stick the brake blocks behind the BB in the chainstays and I have a hard time thinking the wind would see much of the two brake pads sticking out back there.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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I've seen an EE aero brake on Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/...by=twohubs&hl=en

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I found the post, here it is:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=4847100#p4847100

My predictive powers are poor, but I still think it's a good idea.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Its been funny watching this thread develop.
When Parlee launched their Disc TT bike (2 days ago !!) the vast majority of feedback was negative
Now that Zipp launch a Disc Disc, and some very smart people allude that a TT Disc bike might not be a car crash aerodynamically, and all of sudden the pendulum swings and people want to be on board the next P6 or Cannondale TT bike.....
Feels we as an audience are very quick to judge (either way)

Sorry, I misspoke on the Tririg review. I do felt that they were a little overly critical of your design, and that the simplicity of your newer frame design is really one if its strong points. I could take or leave disc brakes for now, but I do agree that there is ton of improvement and innovation to be made and that's where the market will eventually go.

I thought your design was great, and it was a definite departure from everything that was being showcased that year.

Also, I have like six thousand questions about the 3d printed proto you made for the frame. I'm doing something similar for a medical device mock up. I'll PM you.

Yeah what a head scratcher. Parlee, a company with a pedigree of TT bikes that suck, does something, and we are all skeptical. But then Damon Rinard, the foremost road/TT aerodynamics engineer on the planet, says something -- which is essentially corroborated by the aero r&d lead for the world's largest bicycle manufacturer (and a company that owns its own wind tunnel) -- and everyone finds those statements highly compelling in support of these companies' forthcoming products. Not to say that these guys aren't swayed by the obvious marketing/sales/financial boon this is likely to be for their respective companies, which is very likely to sway their analytical objectivity vis-a-vis incumbent products, but their opinions and statements are still much much more compelling than a prototype from Culprit or Parlee.

Trek liked this design so much that they, ahem, "mimicked" it for shimano direct mount.



But the Aero version ee brakes have been around for at least two years.


http://www.bikeradar.com/...eurobike-2014-42326/

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Suffer Well.

This is probably the best integration that disc brakes can hope to achieve. Ignoring how likely it is that you'd just shear off those bolts holding off the inboard caliper during braking, I still don't see it being more aero than Trek's solution.

I'm kind of guessing that the main reason that disc brakes are able to test close to rim brake options is that the spokes on the NDS of the wheel are more inboard. That probably accounts for a relatively large amount of frontal area. Anyone remember the Easton TT wheels? They had narrower hub flanges.

Unfortunately, this is a truth in branding and awareness. When I first launched Culprit with road disc and tri disc as my objective, it has been an uphill battle from the beginning as innovation from a small player isn't seen as innnovation. But when a larger company that can market it right and convince the public its correct, that's different.

I started road disc with TRP parabox... total nightmare to use, but was the only option back then. Now, we have so many options from Shimano, Sram, etc. So the technology is finally catching up. Point being. it is truthful yet hurtful that a small start up company that challenged the industry can't persuade consumers. Damon and others do have history and Pedigree, (experience from years of time in the industry), but it doesn't mean a small player can't come and shake things up.

In Kona Last year when I was showing the Legend Publically near the bike check in, I had the Cervelo engineering team study my bike for about 15 minutes and discuss among themselves. When I finally realized who they were, I asked them about their new P6 and asked they not copy my design cues, they replied, Would we not have a bike ready and finished? Haha, seems yes...

Canyon, Felt engineers also stopped, studied and encouraged. Point being. A small brand usually shakes up the industry veterans and other brands but without a marketing machine such as Specialized and bigger brands have, getting the newest tech and changes across to the mass market is a difficult feat.

Similar situation that Ventum and Dimond face.

Also, a side note, These other bigger brands have more capital to test against a larger amount of competitors in a tunnel and a bigger R&D budget. But that doesn't mean a smaller brand with less capital can't outshine them.

After testing my forks, 2 different forks on my Legend. I can tell you that a properly designed disc fork is substantially faster and has better airflow. A rim caliper is limited by those on the market so you must keep the top narrower limiting airflow. However, if you design a tri disc fork correctly, it improves airflow where the speed is at its highest, at the top. So Tom, yes, the forces of airflow at the center of the hub/disc caliper and rotor are lower than the drag forces on a brake pad holder, etc as they are involved in the created airflow of a rotation wheel.

Look at Team GB track fork. There are 2 ways to make faster track bikes. 1. pair it with 1 wheel and make the airflow laminar to the wheel and fork( Felts new bike, new Cervelo track, Pinarello's bike for Wiggins Hour Record) or you make the crown very wide to allow the air to smoothly flow through. Disc brakes allow the later since road bikes can't be designed for ONLY 1 wheel.

Yes, that's the reality of large firms in every market -- they are able to use structural and inherent economic moats to protect their competitive advantage in this (semi) free market. These companies have financial resources and operating leverage smaller companies do not. I sympathize with you, my friend.

However, I keep thinking about TriRig when you talk about the plight of small companies. Salazar and his one man shop continues to shake things up and deliver product after product that for some reason the broader market isn't giving us. Why has it taken all these years to get a damn bottle cage that I can easily zip tie behind my saddle without drilling holes? Where was X-Lab on this one? Where was Profile Design? Specialized? They were all asleep at the wheel.

So, I challenge you to innovate better and faster than these larger companies -- the better your execution, the more the virtuous cycle of marketing will benefit Culprit. Your stem idea, for instance. I think It's a very good one. I'm highly interested, and I know others will be too.

I agree on Tri rig

But I also see his market tailored to a very small niche market. This forum is slowtwitch and its catered to his market needs. Triathlon
If you look at his range, it is innovative and does well, but not mass market scale. I don't believe Nick is full time Tri rig. It is his side project.

Profile is at the top of the Tri market. Talking to them, They said climbing there was hard, staying on top is harder. Profile is pushing more now into road and tri market, OEM spec of bars/ stem, etc.

New stem... Finalized supplier,which means they know how to manufacture it best so are making design adjustments(3d first with FEA) to ensure it will pass ISO, etc. As well as designing the garmin mount accessories, etc with me. So needs a little more time for perfection.

I hope to be riding a sample in Dec/Jan and start teasing it on FB

I don't get it...what about that SpeedConcept fork design precludes a wide crown?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I second this comment. Rim hydro is fantastic. I have the rival rim hydro brakes on my crit bike and they are fantastic. When eTap comes out with the hydro levers I may switch over to them and hydro rim brakes on my road bike. They simply feel better and allow me to have more confidence in my braking. I ride disc on my gravel/allroad bike and love it too. There are some roads/conditions where nothing compares to a disc brake. For TT, I can't see the need at all. If you are doing anything other than light braking you are doing something wrong. The only way I would go that way is if they are proven faster.

The eTap hydro is out...and the rim brake is conspicuously absent. I've asked if the current rim brakes are compatible, but haven't been able to get a response yet :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I guess you make a living from that and I can appreciate that you need to pay rent and get food on the table, and maybe pay for the status symbols.
So good for you that you developed a reputation that people buy what you say. No hard feelings.
After all, we all need to make a living by selling our souls, as science itself doesn't pay the bills..

But really?

Over.....and.out.

REASON:

No control of profit margin and royalties....

Kills off all good and simple ideas to come to market.

I think your observation of Tririg is spot on. He saw an undeserved portion of the market and was able to leverage his skills to capitalize on it in a way that's relative to his abilities and resources. He has a small market that fits his smaller output ability.

I think you definitely need more marketing/better exposure. I read your white paper on the testing for your disc frame. If you're testing with that close of a margin to the P5-6, (and better at various yaw angles) then you should have no problems capitalizing on the upcoming wave of disc brake converts. Up until reading that, I was under the impression that a disc frame was always going to be less aero, and the trade off was substantially better breaking in return for the losses. With your frame that's simply not the case. If I actually rode something other than my ten year old Kestrel, I might be in the market for it.

So because Damon's post doesn't jive with current ST groupthink you accuse him of selling out his soul? Give me a break. Among industry folks that post here's he's consistently been one of the most useful and demonstrated the highest integrity. It's fine to indicate you don't agree with him but to question his integrity is uncalled for, IMHO. But fine, go ahead and chase away the valuable posters so we can all agree with one another in the ST echo chamber.

I think a lot of people on here need to think before they post. He most likely has no idea who Damon Rinard is and why you should trust what he says.

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I think you know the saying "......all others bring data" it still applies to Damon and I suspect he will eventually bring it when the time comes, whenever that is

Bump. I like this thread. Really interesting.

When a disc-brake tri bike beats a P-5 or Speed Concept in the tunnel, the shit is going to hit the fan.

Can't wait!

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Or going down a hill into a corner. (Emphasis added.)

You might also like to control exactly how much speed you lose in that situation, and where you lose it.

People generalize from their specific use-case, and their flat part of the world to the rest of it.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I was out riding my UP on some technical single track and offload trails yesterday and I loved the modulation that my discs and wide tires gave me, but then I've always loved discs off road. In 2000 I put discs on my FS Kona, because off the pavement the control (especially when you're creeping along picking lines on a rough descent) is paramount. But, while folks seem to argue that disc brakes are a "need" on the road I still don't buy it. Your tires are the limiting factor for stopping not your brakes. Keep telling yourself that some new tech is going to allow you to brake harder and later in a descent and you're only asking to go off course. Now, if you're going to ballon up your tires to address the real issue (available traction) then you might have a case for the advantages of disc brakes. As far as the weather concerns, well, there discs are better at clearing water than rim brakes even on something like Mavic's excellent exalith. But then again I've never been left wanting in the braking department when running the proper equipment for the conditions.

All that being said, if disc make you feel better about yourself, make you believe you will ride safer, and lead you to think that they are a faster setup than rim brakes then go for it. I have no desire to bend anyone to my argument and it's funny that there are so many on here that really think there is some conspiracy to force you to discs. Reality is some just feel that disc are a cooler tech and their perceived qualities make them a better option. Manufactures are merely responding and using it's marketing arm to help along those on the fence. The diehard won't be along for awhile until they have no other choice.

Full disclosure: I do not live in a predominately flat area, I do ride down hills, and I do some Time Trials where braking is needed.

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Campag beat them too it!

Or two small ones on the front where you've not much area to hide them and one on the rear where you've already encountered turbulent air

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Fair points, but in terms of a pure road bike, those things are either there already (rm wear) or not a huge issue (tire width..if you are going over a 28 on a road bike, I would venture to say that you are choosing the wrong style of bike).

Glad to see you spec 'do those brakes, though...how did it sell / how did dealers receive it?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

The bikes were recalled. They booked well for a $5000 road bike. Dealers received mechanical caliper brakes and a few hundred dollars and apologies.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Yeah, I almost asked if that model got caught up in the whole SRAM hydraulic recall....guess that answers my question!

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

So it wasn't that people didn't want them or buy them, it's that the manufacturer screwed up in their lever development and most of them were replaced with cables...great :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I think why this is sort of a hot topic, is that if disc brakes are really a notable improvement in braking (possibly) and they solve an existing problem that caliper brakes are inadequate and/or less reliable (I don't think they are). Then the industry should make a 100% move, like they have with mountain bikes (I'm pretty sure even the low end mtn bikes are specced with disc brakes). Having half the bikes with disc and half with calipers is just going down the BB standard hellhole, which personally causes me more frustration than any other piece of road bike 'technology advancements' in the last several years.

What this means is completely new frames and wheels for everyone, yes over time, but still. Add to this a long painful transition period where it is more difficult to borrow/swap wheels, deal with neutral wheel pits, etc.

Just personally as someone who rides a lot, in the mountains, in a state with four real seasons. I've never had an issue with caliper brakes in riding and racing situations. My wheels have always been retired for other reasons well before rim wear down became an issue. Anecdotal I know but, I simply think caliper makes more sense, and I hope the disc thing goes away.

https://www.facebook.com/zippspeed/photos/a.385616986052.175586.38574956052/10153779364081053/?type=3&theater

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

FFS. What an abomination.

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Suffer Well.

So ugly it's sexy. I need one.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Hideous.

... Wild ...

And that is a big honkin' rotor.

Looks kinda funny on a road bike ...

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Is that picture to emphasize that this wheel is for mountain bikes?

I've finally made peace with this wheel as I have decided that it was developed solely for use on tandem TT bikes.

OK, I can sleep well now.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Sooner or later you will have to accept what's coming. Disc brake tri bikes are on the way.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

As long as the UCI is on the path they are on, then at least there will be a market for sensible aero wheels with rim brakes.

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Suffer Well.

I present to you...the new picture in the dictionary under the word "redundant"!

I'm serious...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Wait till Jeremy Powers starts winning CX races on this wheel. Really no reason not to ride it through the mud. Easier to clean than all those spokes.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I just bought a Trek 820, a low end mountain bike, and it has rim brakes.

I have dual mount Dura Ace calipers on my current road bike, but I still miss my EE brakes on my old Cervelo R5. Great to set up and fantastic to use – probably like some of the linkage actuated single pivot MTBs which you disparage.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm just going to sit back and wait. If the tunnel data proves the bikes are faster, that's good for all of us.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Now THAT is funny....well played.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

This is the best. Also true.

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2019 T-Rex Tri Series

If the new disc brake tri bikes come out and they are faster than the rim brake bikes, what will you guys say?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

However, as Damon has pointed out, you have to be careful in how you define "faster"...remember, he said that plopping rim brakes on a frame designed around discs can be just as bad as plopping disc brakes on a bike designed for rim brakes. Apples to apples comparisons are important. As I've often said, you need to compare "best in class" to "best in class"...not just aerodynamically, but in braking performance as well!

If you TRULY want to know which is faster aerodynamically, then you can't compare any future "disc optimized" bikes to current frames that are not to the same level of integration...AND you need to make sure that you take advantage of OTHER features which one or the other system allows in order to reduce the overall system drag. For example, it's silly to do a rim vs. disc comparison with wheelsets with the same amount of spokes in each since the rim brake setup allows the use of less spokes due to the spokes not needing to transfer braking torque. The number of spokes in a wheel affects both the translational AND the rotational drag (don't forget to measure "power to rotate" in these tests!) Now then, we're talking about a disc wheel here, so that example isn't exactly applicable...but it IS applicable to whatever front wheel you use in the total system comparison.

We saw the danger of these sorts of comparisons when the disc Venge ViAS was released. According to the narrative given, the bike was originally started as a disc braked design...and then in the middle the focus was apparently changed to rim brakes, which obviously means that compromises were made in the overall aero performance. Then, that development led to some "lessons learned" in the frame design and layup which were applied to the eventual disc version. So, for the claim to be made that the disc version of that bike is only slightly less aerodynamic and only slightly heavier than the rim brake version is a bit misleading since it's comparing a "compromised" (design-wise) version #1 of the rim brake model vs. a basically "clean sheet" version #2 (incorporating improvements learned from version #1) for the disc model. Not really "apples to apples"...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

SH*T!

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2019 T-Rex Tri Series

haha! I like the look of the disc brake Super 9 but I know many of you hate it.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Well...I'll admit I stole it from a FB post ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

See my post above...but, in short, I'll say "prove it" :-P

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

When (not if) the big S releases a disc Shiv that's faster than the current rim version, everyone is going to say the current Shiv is a brick.

Now if that new disc Shiv is faster than the IA/Speed Concept/P7 or whatever is the fastest existing bike, you don't get to hide behind saying that the rim versions could/should be faster.

Instead of worrying if the disc Venge is faster than the rim version, we should be asking if it is faster than a Madone/S5/Aero Camino.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

"Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder", I guess...

One ironic thing (among many) about that product is that braking power on a REAR wheel isn't really an issue for any bike. Due to weight shift in braking, the vast majority of braking power is from the front wheel, not the rear. There's a reason that Campy often has offered a single-pivot rear brake in their gruppos: it saves weight and it's plenty of braking capacity.

It's funny...someone mentioned after seeing this that a drum brake might be a more appropriate technology for a rear aero disc...and you know what, they're probably right!

In the end though...is the braking capability of just clamping to the outer edge of the disc that's 3X larger in diameter really not enough for excellent performance? Really?? Why the extra complexity?

Oh, that's right...because some think it "looks cool". I'm sorry...I keep forgetting that the bike industry is really a fashion industry...my mistake... :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Not everyone wants to ride HED Jet's Tom. I love my 808 and Super 9 and wouldn't go back to aluminum brake track wheels. This argument will go on and on and on about proper braking surfaces. If the new bikes are faster and they can prove it, I'm getting one.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I'm fine with you spending your money however you wish...but, why wouldn't you "go back to aluminum brake track wheels"? What's the problem?

Besides, have you ever found your 808 and Super 9 lacking in braking performance? Do they have the NSW textured surfaces?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I've ridden HED Jets before. I have no issue with braking in the dry. Raining....well that's a different story haha. It rarely rains at any of my races so that's not much of an issue.

Carbon wheels are here to stay. I've argued in the past with you that you can shape carbon wheels differently than an aluminum brake track with a fairing but you disagreed.

I don't have the NSW 808.

Are HED wheels fast? Sure. Does the fairing look cheap and thin? Yep. I wouldn't go back to aluminum rims and a fairing because I like carbon clinchers even though I know their limitations.

There is no denying that discs are coming and will be here to stay. There are technical benefits and disadvantages to rim and disc. That's why I'm going to sit back and wait and see.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Bullshit. Show me the data.

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Suffer Well.

What type of phone do you have?

Do you own a computer? If so, what kind and how old?

When did you get your first CD player? Do you still use CDs?

Do you know what streaming music apps are?

Where's the due process?!

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"One Line Robert"

Since I sweat like a pig, my rear brake (internal) cable is always stuck, and if I were to use my rear brake, it would remain closed on the rim. So, I literally have not used my rear brake in many, many years. That's all my training and all my racing.

What am I missing here that a *rear* disc brake would address?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

The fact the 808 has a disc brake and the Super 9 needs one too so that a disc brake tri bike can run an 808 and Super 9.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

One ironic thing (among many) about that product is that braking power on a REAR wheel isn't really an issue for any bike. Due to weight shift in braking, the vast majority of braking power is from the front wheel, not the rear. There's a reason that Campy often has offered a single-pivot rear brake in their gruppos: it saves weight and it's plenty of braking capacity.
It's funny...someone mentioned after seeing this that a drum brake might be a more appropriate technology for a rear aero disc...and you know what, they're probably right!
In the end though...is the braking capability of just clamping to the outer edge of the disc that's 3X larger in diameter really not enough for excellent performance? Really?? Why the extra complexity?
Oh, that's right...because some think it "looks cool". I'm sorry...I keep forgetting that the bike industry is really a fashion industry...my mistake... :-/

It's correct that for max stopping power, the rear brake isn't needed, as the rear wheel will be at the point of lifting.

If you TRULY want to know which is faster aerodynamically, then you can't compare any future "disc optimized" bikes to current frames that are not to the same level of integration...AND you need to make sure that you take advantage of OTHER features which one or the other system allows in order to reduce the overall system drag. For example, it's silly to do a rim vs. disc comparison with wheelsets with the same amount of spokes in each since the rim brake setup allows the use of less sic spokes due to the spokes not needing to transfer braking torque. The number of spokes in a wheel affects both the translational AND the rotational drag (don't forget to measure "power to rotate" in these tests!) Now then, we're talking about a disc wheel here, so that example isn't exactly applicable...but it IS applicable to whatever front wheel you use in the total system comparison.

Note that Fulcrum's Racing Quattro Carbon DB disc braked wheel has 21 spokes front & rear, so disc braked wheels don't seem to be particularly handicapped compared to rim braked wheels.

With triathlon bikes not needing to meet restrictive UCI rules, the use of disc brakes should allow companies to produce designs that wouldn't be possible with rim brakes, e.g.

• A front 'fork' with a monoblade/lefty for aerodynamics, and no need to remove wheel when puncturing.

• If the road surface is poor - fit 650b wheels with (even) fatter tires.

• Automatic pad wear compensation, so no awkward, dirty under bottom bracket adjustments needed.

• No loss of power with convoluted braking line routeing.

• No cable stretch requiring extra lever travel.

These and other factors are in addition to whether discs are better at braking. So, where are rim brakes better - tradition?

NOT a BlackBerry.



Multiple...from the 1st computer I ever bought (Commodore 64) to an iPad to high-powered PC workstations. The right tool for the job. The Commodore isn't currently used BTW (in case you were wondering).

I also have multiple slide-rules in my collection that I know how to use...you know, in case the power goes out ;-)



1987. Yes, I still use CDs. Why wouldn't I when I have such a large collection and they don't degrade?



Of course. I use them when it makes sense and/or is most convenient.



WTH do all of those questions have to do with the fact that Zipp managed to invert the lipstick:pig relationship?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

...and a hydraulically actuated rear rim brake would solve that actuation problem ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Regardless of the data - it does look quite ugly.

I'll probably refuse to buy a disc brake bike because of that alone.

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"One Line Robert"

You also have to realize that frame manufacturers only have so much man power to design the frames and can sell only so many frames in total. They will not be able to support both idealized rim brake and disc brake models in the long run.

I don't think that the braking benefits of disc brakes overcome the aerodynamic costs, and developing disc brake models is slowing down the overall advancement of TT bikes.

I disagree based on the posts from Damon Rinard of Cannondale and Cam Piper of Specialized.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

We don't really know much about the durability of that setup yet, do we? In comparison, my front Hed Jet 6 has a mere 18 spokes.



I don't think it's been shown that sort of fork configuration is actually more aero. A traditional fork makes a nice triangulated structure. A mono-fork would necessarily need more structure to accommodate the same forces. So...that's all pure speculation on your part.




One could argue that if you're doing timed races in conditions that require tires fatter than 28-30mm, you might want to reconsider if you should be doing it on a Tri/TT bike in the first place :-/




There is no reason why a hydraulically actuated rim brake couldn't have those exact same properties. Those aren't a function of brake configuration (rim vs. separate braking disc) but of brake lever/caliper system design.




Well...according to SRAM's own data, their hydro rim brake actuating on an aluminum surface is only ~10% less braking torque for a given lever force as compared to their disc brakes on a 160mm rotor. If one then considers the fact that HED claims "25% shorter stopping distances in dry conditions, or 70% shorter stopping distances in wet conditions" for their Turbine brake track equipped wheels as compared to regular aluminum tracks, one can logically conclude that any gaps in braking performance really aren't there. I would really like to see independent data on this...but sadly, nobody in the media appears willing to take it on.

So, after that, they're better in regards to aero, mass, complexity, and backwards compatibility...none of which should be dismissed out of hand considering it's possible for their to be no performance difference.

Food for thought...there are 2 well-known custom tandem manufacturers (Santana and Erickson) who recommend rim brakes (V-brakes) instead of separate braking discs for the front end of their tandems. One should probably contemplate why this is so...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

You might want to re-read those posts a bit more carefully...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I did.

To quote Damon Rinard:

If you care about braking, consider disc brakes. If you care about speed, consider disc brakes.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

He also said:

"It’s tricky to make a blanket statement like “discs have more drag,” because testing different bikes gives different results. For example, a bike optimized for rim brakes, by definition isn’t optimized for disc brakes, so sticking some discs on it doesn’t represent the performance you’d expect from a bike designed from the ground up as a disc brake bike. Same in reverse."

BTW, I would take the word "consider" used in that context in his quote above as meaning to weigh the pros/cons of the choice for the particular application. Nothing more.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yep, read that one too. Why don't we sit back and wait and see what Damon and others can bring to the market before we judge disc brakes by what they can and cannot do.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

That's OK...isn't this thread supposed to be about the fact that Zipp managed to invert the normal lipstick:pig relationship on a disc wheel? (Which is quite a feat, actually)

You seem to have driven it off track ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Debate is a good thing but we are debating something that doesn't really exist yet! Let's get some more disc brake tri bikes on the market, tunnel test them, then debate! The Parlee TT disc brake bike is the start.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Sorry, missed this before...more evidence supporting my mini wind tunnel testing, and indicating that the ERO Sports testing has overestimated the magnitude of the benefit.

That's interesting, as I would have thought that tandems would be one situation in which a disc brake would make sense - after all, I'd rather overheat and warp a disc rotor than overheat the rim and blow out (or roll off) the tire. Perhaps I'm underestimating the difference in heat dissipation, such that the former is simply much more likely?

(Come to think of it, I've seen reports of single riders warping discs on long descents...so a tandem would almost certainly do so.)

My early testing at San Diego LSWT also corroborates your mini tunnel tests, Andy. But I'll add that for Omni, the custom Omega X makes the bike faster than with no brake at all, by about 2 Watts. More numbers with our complete white paper in November.

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TriRig.com

I'd like disc brakes on tandems more if the failure mode were simply warped rotors.
Unfortunately, complete loss of braking function is a failure mode that has happened in the real world.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Yep, your tunnel seems to be pretty good. ERO's numbers seem a little off with that test.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)