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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
bluemonkeytri wrote:
ffmedic84 wrote:
Well said, I agree 100%. Its hard for me to understand how people actually defended the cheating in the latest post. This whole feel good attitude shared by some about cheating doesn't matter if your mop/bop in my opinion is chicken shit. Why are you scared to call someone out who has clearly broken the rules? It might not impact me directly but I think it impacts our sport. We shouldn't tolerate it at any level. There is no achievement if what you "achieved" was done so cheating. A big thank you to the guys are sportstats for stepping up and helping eliminate cheating.


While it was hard to digest that entire thread, I think most are referring to Power 13's comments. He, as he stated, was not defending the cheating. He was questioning why so many delighted in an internet witch hunt on this girl and no one even so much as questioned the original poster's intent, he of the brand new username and single post. I completely agree with Power13. The girl got caught by SportsStats, was DQ'ed, and called out publicly. The continued piling on was unnecessary. To think that someone could start this anonymously was also worrisome. I hope none of you (or me) ever become the target of some anonymous poster with an axe to grind. In this case, perhaps the public outing was justified, but the next case may not be. There have been plenty of those here too.

Go back and re-read what he wrote about MOP and BOP cheating, including doping. I think you missed a lot.

Nope, he pretty much understood exactly what I was saying. Glad to see some have reading comprehension. Others focus on sub-points and went off the rails.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Of course. Which is why you said the below I'm sure. Glad we know how you feel about cheating. Doesn't matter as long as it doesn't affect the top of the field.


"You know what, to some degree, yeah. If someone uses T or EPO to log a MOP finish, how does it impact you? They took away a spot from you? You should have been 92nd instead of 93rd? Are you that shallow about your results?"

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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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Trying to give you some perspective, not defending cheating.

Reading comprehension....amazing how others were able to gt the point, not to mention I have continually said I was defending or condoning cheating.

But somehow you know better and are on to what I am really saying.....

You go with that. I gotta get on yet another flight today....out.

*edit for typo

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Last edited by: Power13: Nov 9, 12 15:39
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Trying to give you some perspective, not defending cheating.

There is no perspective to cheating. Try again.

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Last edited by: TravisT: Nov 9, 12 15:43
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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There's plenty of perspective necessary when looking at cheating. You're really going to argue that what T3 did was as bad as what 7 did? Stop being so patronising.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [jcd] [ In reply to ]
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The great thing about threads like this is it becomes easily obvious who is willing to rationalize cheating.

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Re: Why Cheating Matters [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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bobby11 wrote:
Yikes! That's a lot! I think I read that the guy who put on Gran Fondo NY paid $17,000 from his own pocket for testing. It's a shame it would be so prohibitively expensive.

Part of it is that certified testing can only be done through two labs in the US, and the tests and equipment for them both are expensive.

John



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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
The great thing about threads like this is it becomes easily obvious who is willing to rationalize cheating.

Yeah, but that's not the same as defending cheating! <rolleyes>
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [jcd] [ In reply to ]
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jcd wrote:
There's plenty of perspective necessary when looking at cheating. You're really going to argue that what T3 did was as bad as what 7 did? Stop being so patronising.

I think an objective argument could be made, all things considered, that the underlying behavior of T3 is actually worse in some ways even though the result of the behavior is far less significant. I'm not making that argument, but a psychiatrist sure might, if asked "which behavior is more pathological/sociopathic"... Depends on what you're measuring, or maybe the angle of that differing perspective you're arguing for. How newsworthy it is, how much money is involved...that's not the point.

I know someone who finished IMFL (not this year) after much adversity - far more than T3 - in pretty close to the same time. It seems to me the bragging about a supposedly equivalent yet fraudulent accomplishment certainly could be more offensive to that individual than the more abstract, to them, transgressions of 7, even though the latter are (obviously) massively worse/impactful in many other ways.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is not a universal or absolute scale for perspective. You may have a scale, I may have a scale, but they aren't going to be the same in every circumstance. If you're a scrabble player, you're going to be more upset about the scrabble cheating scandal than, well, anybody who doesn't care about competitive scrabble. Talk about a kerfuffle in a teapot... I mean, come on, that's just a board game! Have some perspective, stupid New York Times!!
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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I think you mean "justifying" cheating. Rationalizing cheating would be trying to explore why people do it, justifying it would be explaining how it's ok to do it. There's also an ideological difference in how those two concepts have been used. To rationalize is more connected with the logical tradition, while to justify is more theological. Given your hostility to a complex view of "cheating," however, I'm not surprised that you're also hostile to the concept of rationalizing, mistaking it as you have done for justification.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [skip] [ In reply to ]
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Good post, sorry I was typing my response while you posted yours. Complexity is good.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [skip] [ In reply to ]
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You really could say that T3's actions completely parallel 7's. Her willingness to to whatever it took to reach her goal (finisher's medal), her denouncing other cheaters at the race, promoting herself and her accomplishment, her complete denial that she had done anything wrong and subsequent attempts to use any avenue available to "prove" her innocence and discredit anybody who said differently, her denial of other cheating even after IMFL had been proven and then the complete disappearance after.

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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're right that those are some interesting parallels, and your point fits in with skip's about the dangerous causes of this kind of destructive behaviour. If we look at cheating as a symptom then it says some pretty horrible things about certain aspects of human psychology, whether you're T3 or 7. I still think it's pretty obvious that the massively different scale, duration and financial and sporting impact of T3 and 7's actions warrant significant attention, though.

Cheating is definitely wrong most of the time for most people, I'm just trying to question what I read as your absolutist view. Who decides what cheating is and is not? If someone (presumably outside sport) cheats in order to fight a greater moral wrong, such as a journalist pretending to be someone else so they can expose fraud/extortion/bunga bunga parties, is that still absolutely morally unacceptable in your eyes? Don't feel like I'm expecting a point by point rebuttal, I'm just trying to gesture towards the "perspective" I argued was necessary when looking at cheating.

Er, obviously T3 was cheating... not righting some greater moral wrong. Just thought I'd get that in there in case anyone's about to accuse me of "defending cheating."
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]
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ive commented on this subject before. here is an interesting article outlining the rationalization of cheating....

http://business.time.com/2012/06/18/why-almost-all-of-us-cheat-and-steal/


~sarcasm saves lives
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]
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Of course it matters. Why say more . If you are past 5th grade and do not know it you may never.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [skip] [ In reply to ]
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One time in a swim a kayaker said some people touched a bouy and did not go around it. They stop a group and then let them go because they did not know which ones were guilty. I was in the group they stopped (in the water) I felt so guilty even though I had not did it. That was years ago and it still bothers me. I got a medal that day and felt like I needed to say something which i didn't but I felt like a cheat.
Funny story that day I got out of water and for some reason thought I would take off wet suit on beach. A wave washed me down the shore about 10 yards , i stood up and it happened again. One leg in one about 1/2 way out of my wet suit.....everyone was laughting
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]
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I am the user formally known as “gerechtigheid” and I would like to clarify a few things here. I haven’t replied back as that user because the account was disabled. I assume because of either her claims of harassment or the fact that I used a disposable email account during registration. I was hoping to stay anonymous because I have discovered that one can never underestimate the motivation of someone (or their associates) to obtain “retribution” over a perceived injustice. I can assure you that nothing nefarious was going on here.

Background:

I had no axe to grind. I do not know the person involved, and have never previously contacted her in any way shape or form. She does not know me and I do not know her. I did not even know her name until November 2nd when she posted a photo of her race bib along with a vase of flowers and a teddy bear that her boyfriend gave her. The bib number was barely blurred out. In fact the borders of the numbers were still readily visible if you clicked on the picture to view it full sized. She has since deleted that picture. I cannot post it here without her (the copyright holder’s) permission, and I seriously doubt I would be able to obtain that now. However, several people in that thread saw it and can verify this.

I took a mental note of the number so I could track her progress during the race along with a few other people that I was going to cheer on.

I really wanted to see this young lady finish. I like stories of people overcoming adversity and accomplishing great things. I read about her struggles back in August and like many others, developed a passing interest in how she would do when race time came around. She was one of a few people that I wanted to track during the race and then cheer on as they ran across the finish line on the live video feed.

As the day unfolded I noticed her bike splits were showing that she was in jeopardy of not making the cut off. I didn’t even notice her screwed up swim time. I was later happy to see that she did indeed make the bike cut off and started into the run. Her run splits then showed that she was obviously walking (18 min pace) and then halfway through they simply stopped. I figured that she had finally DNF'd after struggling all day. It was the logical conclusion based on her split times. I stopped keeping track of her at that point and figured that she would probably post an update on what had happened, e.g., “how the wheels came off”, “undertrained” etc. Despite this, I was impressed that she still showed up, toughed it out and gave it a huge effort. Even if it ends up as a DNF, that kind of effort is still honorable.

Two days later:

She finally posts an update. She claims to have run the marathon at a 9 minute pace. RED FLAG. I distinctly remember seeing her in the tracker performing at walking pace two days earlier. So I go look her up in the athlete tracker and see if maybe the timing was screwed up and was since corrected. If that were to be the case, I was prepared to be both shocked and awed at an incredulous 4 hour IM marathon from this young lady.

Then I notice the finish time, which was 4 minutes and 55 seconds after the end of the first lap. So she ran 161 mph on the last lap? It was so fast that the timing mats on the second lap couldn’t even register it? It became very obvious what happened here. My heart sank. I decide to sit on my hands for a bit, see if anyone else says anything, and give her the chance to come clean.

Two more days later:

After a couple of more days and more people congratulating her on her “finish” I decide to say something about it in the spirit of this post:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rum.cgi?post=4064550
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“to all, regarding this thread:

these incidents occur several times a year or, at least, they're exposed several times a year, and that tends more often than not to happen here on this forum.

in that way, a public service is provided, and those of you on this forum, through your sleuthing, are sort of triathlon's "usada" of course cutting. and, you do it with humor (my favorite was the outboard motor strapped onto the back - via photoshop - of one infamous triathlete of some repute).

at the same time, these threads, after having served their purpose, tend to decay into something that's not helpful. it's good that we can expose behavior that needs to see the light of day. however, i don't want this forum to be a vehicle for public humiliation. i've pulled a couple of posts in this thread that were, in my opinion, guilty of that.

i'm going to let you guys get in your last licks, but, please, be sensitive to the concern i express above. then i'm going to lock the thread down. i'll keep it on the site, but, it'll be locked, which means no more posting to it.

please do not start another thread to take up where this thread leaves off.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman”

Mr. Empfield is obviously a wise man.

Notice that I never posted any information about this young woman except for the bib number, and that was it. She had already posted a picture of it herself the day before the race.

The claim about harassing her “across several forums as well as facebook” is a patent lie. I have never conversed with her in any manner. No proof of this from any of these supposed places will ever be provided because it never happened. She simply did what many do when the heat is on. “play the victim”

Why did I do it?

Most competitors actually train hard all year. Many of them make great sacrifices with time, money and family. They tough it out with grit and perseverance and sometimes fight the battle of their lives on race day to accomplish something extraordinary. For most, it is a result that they worked hard for all year. For some, it is a defining moment in their lives.

To allow people to get away with cheating and shortcutting this process denigrates the sport and degrades, or “cheapens” these hard-fought accomplishments. I won’t stand for it and neither should anyone else.

Shame on those who rationalize in favor of anyone who cheats. They should know better. Everyone learned about this as children. There is no valid excuse.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [ijzerheid] [ In reply to ]
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I applaud you.

The reference to you attacking her across many forums was called out by one of the posters. She conveniently didn't respond to that call out, like all of the other call outs.


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Re: Why Cheating Matters [ijzerheid] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the info! I hadn't seen the picture with her bib number and was wondering how you had known it - now that is all clear. The claim of "harassment across several forums as well as facebook" was a pretty obvious lie, since your post was quite anonymous. Now I can go to sleep feeling like I know the whole story...
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [ijzerheid] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for doing this, and for sharing your most recent wise words.

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Brad Stulberg
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for doing this and actively collaborating with Marc. As I mentioned in the sportstats thread, Marc and his crew go far beyond basic timing. For years they have been going out of their way to identify suspect results and corroborate with various timing stations and what the splits "should be". Marc goes through the entire list of Kona qualifier and rolldown guys before the results go up to manually double check that no one is getting a free ride. If that can be complimented with what ST can provide in a respectful way, that is even better.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [skip] [ In reply to ]
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skip wrote:
gregn wrote:
. Fascinating reading and full of irony.


Finisher's Medals


Given all that has transpired, that last one gives me a queasy feeling...Dr. Post graciously sends 50(!) medals, one might think we'd have seen some photos of the happy recipients after the fact or at least heard something about how successful the clinic and medal giveaway was.

I was just thinking the same thing. I got a pit in my stomach. I remember when she posted that thread. I'd really like to know exactly where those medals went.

I give mine to my 6yo twin nieces, they love them and treat them like gold!!! One of the twins wants to do a "swim, bike, run..Auntie Ky, they call it a TRIATHLON!!" I literally got choked up when she told me.



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Re: Why Cheating Matters [ijzerheid] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for stepping forward with this. Am I reading things correctly that the picture posted of the race number "pre race" had the race number partially blurred out? So the entire plan was pre meditated and the number was blurred in the pre event picture to make sure that no one could track properly? The entire story of putting the timing chip on the shoulder strap premeditated?

I have heard of people who just took the easy way out and cut the course, but what you are saying is that this was a premeditated 1 loop swim, 1 loop bike, 1 loop bike 2/3Ironman outing? Slowman, I realize the previous thread is locked, but what he is saying is that the entire plot was premidated and not just something that shook out on a bad day. Sorry, I missed parts of what happened. If ST can be instrumental in outing that type of behaviour that is a great thing.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]
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Bstulberg wrote:
"Swing your arms all you want, so long as they don't hit me." If you want to take EPO to enhance your speed or cut pre-plotted courses during your own, individually staged events (e.g., training) that is fine, you are swinging your arms, but not hitting me!

Except even this is false. When someone trains with EPO or any PED labeled as illegal for out of competition usage, they hit you when they swing their arms. EPO lets you train and recover outside of your normal capabilities. Even if you assume that the effects of EPO does not have a long term physiological effect once someone quits training with it, can change your mental approach to racing because you will have the experience of going farther into your own personal red zone and the suffering in the race may seem less.
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Re: Why Cheating Matters [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Trying to give you some perspective, not defending cheating.

There is no perspective to cheating. Try again.

Sorry, I just don't believe that all types of cheating are equal. They just aren't, in my book. I don't have much need in my life for moral absolutism. Too many shades of grey out there.

YMMV...which is just fine. I have no need to get you to agree with me. I am perfectly happy with agreeing to disagree.

However, given your proclivity to beat LA breads into the ground, I have no doubt that you will reiterate for the umpteenth time what you have already stated.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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