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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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TxDude wrote:
Francois wrote:
It took it really far. Like stratospheric levels of lying. But then, Lance Armstrong and co. were far better. They took the lying far far far away to an other galaxy...
So, I'll buy Tyler's book absolutely. He got caught. He was in a culture of cheating for over a decade, and everyone around him was lying and cheating, so he
just did the same, because that's all they knew, and maybe he didn't have the right support outside of cycling. It's not an excuse for what he did, but it surely helps
understand a bit the type of environment.

But I really have to laugh at those throwing rocks at Tyler and Floyd, when Lance has taken that to a whole new level...


Francois - I'm coming clean. I finally agree with you. You have been consistently spot-on regarding the LA doping issue for years. I used to be big LA supporter as recently as his triathlon victories. Funny, I don't hold doping against him as much as I do his bold face lying about it. Since he is the one athlete with the most to lose so he will never come clean. I had lunch with a friend recently who is avid Cat 1 racer. He said there are plenty of dopers in the weekend racing bunch too. The only way to enjoy the sport is to watch it for what it is. A dope show.

On another related note (re, athletes who fall from grace) Tiger Woods could have denied all of his exploits. I give him credit for stepping up and admitting to it all. Lance should have done the same thing. I can respect anyone who admits they f'd up. Impossible to respect LA.

Couldnt disagree more with your example of Tiger as someone we should look to and hold up as "coming clean." In my view his public mea culpa came only after an avalanche of damaging investigative press and only to stem the bleeding of sponsorship money, not becuase he was sorry he cheated on his wife, which had nothing to do with golf. In my view, he didnt need to hold a press conference and talk about his sex life. That's personal BS. Now, if we want to discuss Tiger's possible use of PEDs (which is what we're talking about with regard to LA and others) again IMHU, there's plenty of room for speculation. If the same scrutiny and law enforcement effort was ever applied to determining whether Tiger used testosterone or something else, i'd be interested to see what might (or might not) be found. But, there's no reason to test pro golfers for PEDs right? And so there lacks that impetus that exists (and arguably rightly so) in endurance sports to dig deeper when an athlete wins an unprecedented 7 tours.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [KevinMartin] [ In reply to ]
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KevinMartin wrote:
And so there lacks that impetus that exists (and arguably rightly so) in endurance sports to dig deeper when an athlete wins an unprecedented 7 tours.

It's only unprecedented until someone does it. Indurain won 5 tours, ostensibly clean. (One positive test for salbutamol in 1994, although it was allowed for asthma at the time). Where's the digging to prove he doped to do it?

It's unprecedented for someone to win 8 golds in swimming in a single Olympics. Where's the hue and cry for testing Phelps?

Note: I am not being a LA apologist, I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of your reasoning.

John



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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [KevinMartin] [ In reply to ]
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KevinMartin wrote:
TxDude wrote:
Francois wrote:
It took it really far. Like stratospheric levels of lying. But then, Lance Armstrong and co. were far better. They took the lying far far far away to an other galaxy...
So, I'll buy Tyler's book absolutely. He got caught. He was in a culture of cheating for over a decade, and everyone around him was lying and cheating, so he
just did the same, because that's all they knew, and maybe he didn't have the right support outside of cycling. It's not an excuse for what he did, but it surely helps
understand a bit the type of environment.

But I really have to laugh at those throwing rocks at Tyler and Floyd, when Lance has taken that to a whole new level...


Francois - I'm coming clean. I finally agree with you. You have been consistently spot-on regarding the LA doping issue for years. I used to be big LA supporter as recently as his triathlon victories. Funny, I don't hold doping against him as much as I do his bold face lying about it. Since he is the one athlete with the most to lose so he will never come clean. I had lunch with a friend recently who is avid Cat 1 racer. He said there are plenty of dopers in the weekend racing bunch too. The only way to enjoy the sport is to watch it for what it is. A dope show.

On another related note (re, athletes who fall from grace) Tiger Woods could have denied all of his exploits. I give him credit for stepping up and admitting to it all. Lance should have done the same thing. I can respect anyone who admits they f'd up. Impossible to respect LA.


Couldnt disagree more with your example of Tiger as someone we should look to and hold up as "coming clean." In my view his public mea culpa came only after an avalanche of damaging investigative press and only to stem the bleeding of sponsorship money, not becuase he was sorry he cheated on his wife, which had nothing to do with golf. In my view, he didnt need to hold a press conference and talk about his sex life. That's personal BS. Now, if we want to discuss Tiger's possible use of PEDs (which is what we're talking about with regard to LA and others) again IMHU, there's plenty of room for speculation. If the same scrutiny and law enforcement effort was ever applied to determining whether Tiger used testosterone or something else, i'd be interested to see what might (or might not) be found. But, there's no reason to test pro golfers for PEDs right? And so there lacks that impetus that exists (and arguably rightly so) in endurance sports to dig deeper when an athlete wins an unprecedented 7 tours.

Tiger has been linked to doping doctors re: actovegan for his knee.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
KevinMartin wrote:
And so there lacks that impetus that exists (and arguably rightly so) in endurance sports to dig deeper when an athlete wins an unprecedented 7 tours.


It's only unprecedented until someone does it. Indurain won 5 tours, ostensibly clean. (One positive test for salbutamol in 1994, although it was allowed for asthma at the time). Where's the digging to prove he doped to do it?

It's unprecedented for someone to win 8 golds in swimming in a single Olympics. Where's the hue and cry for testing Phelps?

Note: I am not being a LA apologist, I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of your reasoning.

John

I agree his logic fails but so does yours.

Indurian is Spanish. They have lax doping laws there, or did anyways.

Phelps has been tested a TON.

Lance was chased because cycling is corrupt and several generations (when you think a cycling generation is probably 5-7 year career) have been impacted, the dopers are still active in the sport, and there is evidence that he doped.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, youre misreading me a little. I too see a lot of inconsistency with the testing and not testing across different sports. That was my point. Good argumentds can be made in either direction. But, concerning Phelps (and all oly athletes) as far as i know there's a great deal of testing and redundancy, right?
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:

It's unprecedented for someone to win 8 golds in swimming in a single Olympics. Where's the hue and cry for testing Phelps?

Is Phelps working with a known doping doctor?

Have several of his former team mates or training partners accused him of doping?

The "unprecedented" is only part of the equation. Apologist/disciples seem to be ignoring the forest and focusing solely on each tree, shrub, and rock saying "that's not a forest; it's a bush", "that's not a forest; it's a stream". If the only piece of evidence USADA had was that LA had 7 yellow jerseys, we wouldn't be where we are.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Then people say Frankie, Landis & Hamilton etc are discredited because they lied. Are they liars about things yes. Does that make them a liar about everything? No.

Why can't people see the forest through the trees?



Hero worship and the power of celebrity.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [nedbraden] [ In reply to ]
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How do propose verifying what she said since that hasn't been publicized yet? Can't wait for your answer to this one.
You are dancing around the point I made. IMHO that just confirms that you have an agenda



That is the funniest line on this thread.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
It's only unprecedented until someone does it. Indurain won 5 tours, ostensibly clean.

If you do some searching and reading, you'll quickly discover that the bolded part is very unlikely.

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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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With Padilla as a doctor, the likelihood that he was clean is close to 0.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
With Padilla as a doctor, the likelihood that he was clean is close to 0.

Not to mention at least one rider from that era on Banesto has talked about the team's systematic doping and the information out there about Conconi making Indurain his "special project". By all accounts Indurain is a class act and good guy, but lets not kid ourselves. He almost certainly doped and there's every chance his 5 TdF wins were at least in part due to getting a jump on a significant portion of the peloton in the use of EPO.
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Re: Tyler Hamilton's stuff starting to come out [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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At least one former Banesto rider is also dead as well, though his death was not directly attibuted to PEDs, the mindset no doubt contributed, similar to Pantani's troubles.
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