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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I find you can do more intensity, more often on the treadmill largely because if you do hill repeats, you're not having to run downhill....so you can do long hill intervals or continuous uphill runs too, that you generally can't do outdoors. Also the treadmill offers the opportunity to do intensity runs when outside running may not be ideal ( ice, snow, different city with bad running location etc). But other than that, you can't beat running outdoors. When running outdoors there is a lot more coordination, balance, and timing in play. It seems like that should be trivial, but having gone through a fairly bad head injury a few years ago, I have found that outdoor running takes a lot more mental effort. For "able bodied" athletes, you probably don't notice this, but it does take more background processing in a long race that you probably don't realize you are doing. On a treamilll you don't have to do that as there are no variations in terrain, footing, light, wind, sun etc. It all adds up to more than you realize.

I develop blisters on the balls of my feet from running hill repeats on a treadmill. Do you?

Proud Representative of Slowtwitch Anti-Atheists Society.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
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Now I hate you...I could have sworn my treadmill was around 0.5 mph slow...after putting my bike on it, it measures bang on to my bike computer, which I know measures the distance to my office bang on with my bike and my GPS, so I guess I just run 0.5 mph than I'd like to think on the treadmill.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Iamironman] [ In reply to ]
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No issues with blisters on the ball of my foot running treadmill intervals, but I have also run several Ironmans with no socks and no blister, so I am not the right guy to ask about this. My feet generally don't get that many blisters. All my treadmill runs are no socks too just to keep them fairly solid for tri season (also I don't sweat much in my feet so that's an advantage).
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
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Cobble wrote:
lightheir wrote:
dirtymangos wrote:
I often wondered why treadmills always tell you, you are running faster than you really are.

I know several occasional exercisers in there 40s who can run under 19 for 5 k. Here is how their reasoning goes:
1) I can run 7 min/miles on the treadmill. (The treadmill is, of course correct, at a 0% incline).
2) A 5 k is three miles. I can run 1 mile in 7 minutes during a workout. That means I should be able to run 3 at a much faster pace in a race. 19 should be easy.

They tell you not to argue with an idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Anyway, part of me thinks it would be a simple enough matter for treadmill makers and gyms to correct the problem. And that they do not, because they like the fact that your dollars can buy imaginary speed. (Though real running speed might be just as easily achieved for free).


I actually think it's harder than it sounds to precisely calibrate a TM. I don't think it's as simple as belt distance, or even if it was, the accuracy of the belt measurement would have to be so accurate given the number of rpms that it would be difficult to precisely calibrate per mile. The variability of TMs even at premium gyms like Equinox in the same gym make me suspect this.

I also suspect that home TMs, even good ones like SoleF80 probably change speed slightly with runner weight (but I'm speculating here, I don't know for sure). I know for sure that when you listen to the engine motor sound between myself and my wife who's 40 pounds lighter than me, it sounds noticeably different on my F80. I could be wrong but I can't help but think there's more stress on the engine moving my weight rather than hers - it sure sounds like it.
Funny that you mention this, because I had the same question so decided to try it out by putting my bike on the treadmill.

First, i set the bike on the treadmill without me sitting on it, and looking at the speed at all the preset speeds (i.e. 2 to 12mph in steps of 2mph). Turns out, the speed was spot on on my Sole F83. It was also very stable.

Next, I did the same thing but with me sitting on the bike. The added weight slows the treadmill down, but then it measures its own speed, knows it's off and increases it until it is again spot on. The treadmill motor has to work harder, but the speed is still what it should be.

Did the same thing with the treadmill at 15% incline, no difference.

Cool - thx for the info on those tests. Makes me have more faith in the precision of the Sole F80. Although I will admit, I still have my doubts - while I love your data/results, I still wonder if the F80 is smart enough to recalibrate precise paces with the varaible speed of footsteps. (You can hear the engine run harder with each step.)
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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The HR argument posted here is not necessarily correct. HR is a relative measure of oxygen cost, but it fails to distinguish changes in oxygen demand due to changes in work efficiency. HR will increase if running efficiency decreases on the treadmill due to less efficient mechanics compared to over ground.
dirtymangos wrote:
The heart rate argument is correct. Obviously 1 hr at 160 H.R. is as difficult on a treadmill as it is on the road.
There are some obvious differences between a treadmill running and non-treadmill running.
The effect of wind is one. The link below shows how different paces on a treadmill correspond to different paces in the real world combined and how treadmill incline can adjust.
It is true that the treadmill is not much easier at 10 minute miles. It is also true that it is a lot easier at 5 minute miles.

http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

Something that this does not consider is running form.
I think bouncers (or bounders) will really see a huge, unrealistic, improvement in there treadmill speed.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I tend to agree with Barry. When you train on treadmill all the time, you can run more sloppy and pound the belt hard with no negative consequence. It is easier to get lulled into this. When you run outside, you have to run a bit "softer" to account for the hard pavement.

That's a good point. It does help if the treadmill at your gym isn't the best maintained and rattles a bit. I actually focus on trying to reduce the noise my foot strikes make. IF I lander realyl hard, my watter bottle starts shaking. Though some of that may be a resonance.

Most of the the time I use my footpod, which is actually calibrated pretty well and more accurate than I would expect. Then I can track my cadence a lot easier too.

Thursday it's calling for -7F in the morning. I have a 16 mile run planned..... so do I either rearrange my training schedule or suck it up and run almost 2 hours indoors? Maybe a nice long 2 hour indoor run will increase my metal toughness for an IM run. I might have to throw in some short tempo efforts here and there to break it up a little.


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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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I totally disagree with the notion that you reduce impact to your leg by paying attention to how loud your footstrikes are. It seems to me not any different than the myth of buying more padded shoes to reduce impact of footstrike on the ground, which I'm pretty sure has been debunked. (More padded shoes do not reduce risk of injury or even weightloading.)
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [argon] [ In reply to ]
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So all of the above can be summarized as "it depends".

I try to not hate the TM because sometimes it's just necessary – TMs are harder mentally for me. If I have to run on the TM, I usually throw on a Sufferfest video and change the effort to match. Yesterday I had an added wrinkle, as parenting duties worked out, if I wanted to train I had to do it with the 2.5yr old too - he let me get a in 30min ride followed by a 45 min run, but that was while watching Alvin and the Chipmunks and at times watching for little fingers or dodging the toys/shoes he would toss on to watch them fly off the back. So ya, TM can be harder.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [argon] [ In reply to ]
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I find that treadmill running does not properly develop glute strength; After very harsh winters I can feel this when I begin to run outside again.
We're having a very mild winter in Sweden and I only use the treadmill once a week.

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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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sub-3-dad wrote:
I find that treadmill running does not properly develop glute strength; After very harsh winters I can feel this when I begin to run outside again.
We're having a very mild winter in Sweden and I only use the treadmill once a week.

I could make the exact same argument against running on asphalt, versus running on singletrack. Insufficient surface variation leads to specific muscle imbalances. Many people seem to overlook the fact that the treadmill is just one of many available running surfaces, and is not a drop-in replacement for any other.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Mad Jee wrote:
"A treadmill actually assists your running"

No.


Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.
Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the outdoor running was from east to west?

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Mad Jee wrote:
"A treadmill actually assists your running"

No.


Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.

So while HR is HR and that's good for training effect, I think most people agree that treadmill used sparingly is good for interval work and occasional workouts. But you can't train on a mill for long and expect to keep the same pace at equal effort. So while HR on a treadmill at 7 min pace might be XX, HR outside at that same 7 min pace is going to be XX+ and youre going to fatigue a lot quicker in your posterior chain muscles.

Physics takes a beating once again in the alternate universe that is slowtwitch.

So you are running at 7min/mile outdoors. There is a set of muscles that enable you to do that.

So you are running on a treadmill whose belt speed is 7min/mile. What set of muscles prevents you from being pulled backwards at 7min/mile? How does that set of muscles differ from the set of muscles used outdoors?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Kind of timely

http://www.runnersworld.com/treadmills/biomechanics-expert-debunks-treadmill-running-myths?page=single#.Uu-zySsDWaA.facebook
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [argon] [ In reply to ]
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im a pretty good judge of pace and can totally tell how off the accuracy is on my TM. its a good TM too, its a true. not known for being that off but the one i have so is awful. i can run 7min pace all day long outside and mapped courses and the track. 7min on my TM feels like 6ish. so assuming its perfectly calibrated trying to go by a certain distance on the TM is a mistake. i figure they are all slightly off one way or another so i really just try to focus on effort. i cover the display with towel or shirt. i was in barcelona this past summer and was on a very nice TM that said i was cruising at 18k and hour. probably not but i sure as hell didnt cover the display that time.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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This is superbly interesting. There seems to be three camps. First the its way easier on the treadmill camp and second the its way harder on the treadmill camp. The third presents scientific evidence to a more neutral experience.

I am a member of camp 2, its harder on the treadmill. However I am sure that all three are actually correct depending on your gait. I therefore wonder what about my gate makes it harder for me? Given that running is my weakness I am always interested in how I improve there.

To the group, what running gaits would make running on the treadmill harder or easier?

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My Blog: http://poseidom.wordpress.com
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Poseidon2600] [ In reply to ]
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Poseidon2600 wrote:
To the group, what running gaits would make running on the treadmill harder or easier?
Maybe it could have something to do with the way one subconsciously adjusts one's gait according to one's visual surroundings--i. e., the brain/body interaction. If you're used to judging your speed by looking off in the distance, might that not make it harder to adjust your gait to the speed of a treadmill? Similarly, if you're used to adjusting your gait according to your view of a treadmill panel in front of you, maybe you'd run less efficiently outdoors?

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Poseidon2600] [ In reply to ]
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Poseidon2600 wrote:
This is superbly interesting. There seems to be three camps. First the its way easier on the treadmill camp and second the its way harder on the treadmill camp. The third presents scientific evidence to a more neutral experience.

I am a member of camp 2, its harder on the treadmill. However I am sure that all three are actually correct depending on your gait. I therefore wonder what about my gate makes it harder for me? Given that running is my weakness I am always interested in how I improve there.

To the group, what running gaits would make running on the treadmill harder or easier?


The obvious explanation as said above by myself and many:

TM calibrations varies. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Just go to the local upscale gym and try each of their TMs - they'll often be off by 5, 10, sometimes 30sec/mile when compared to each other.

I don't know why people keep ignoring this issue and keep on making it so complicated, like wind, footstrike pressure, gait alteration, etc.

To date, aside from the Woodway treadmill, I have never seen hard proof that treadmills are super accurate across a wide weight range of runners. Most of them are pretty darn close, but as we all know, even 5sec/mile difference is the difference between surviving and failing when doing VO2 intervals.

Furthermore, the gold standard of outdoors is also hugely subjective. Even on a track. Temps, winds, how you feel that day, all subjective. I'd be willing to wager that subjective factors on a run have similar variability on the whole as the small differences in TM calibration. If anything, one should be asking why they feel so differently on various outdoor runs since good TMs tend to be extremely precise for a single user and pretty close to accurate (of course, this presumes one user on the same treadmill repeatedly.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Feb 3, 14 11:13
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Mad Jee wrote:
"A treadmill actually assists your running"

No.


Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.

So while HR is HR and that's good for training effect, I think most people agree that treadmill used sparingly is good for interval work and occasional workouts. But you can't train on a mill for long and expect to keep the same pace at equal effort. So while HR on a treadmill at 7 min pace might be XX, HR outside at that same 7 min pace is going to be XX+ and youre going to fatigue a lot quicker in your posterior chain muscles.


Physics takes a beating once again in the alternate universe that is slowtwitch.

So you are running at 7min/mile outdoors. There is a set of muscles that enable you to do that.

So you are running on a treadmill whose belt speed is 7min/mile. What set of muscles prevents you from being pulled backwards at 7min/mile? How does that set of muscles differ from the set of muscles used outdoors?

Exactly...the BELT speed is 7min/mile. Glute and hamstring activation in the terminal stance phases of gait/running are concentric to push off the ground and propel the body forward over the stationary ground. On a treadmill the ground is moving underneath you and what prevents you from moving backwards is the hip flexion and quadriceps when they lift the leg off of the ground and bring it forward. It is very difficult to push off of a surface that is in fact moving away from you. Which is why I said we PREDOMINANTLY use anterior muscles on the treadmill. You will still have posterior chain activation, especially in terminal swing to slow the leg down and at initial contact to help stabilize the leg, but not nearly as much to propel you forward because there is no need for that.

I'm not arguing the physics, I'm arguing that in one situation the ground is moving behind you and in another situation you are moving on the ground.

Imagine there is a flat and straight treadmill for hundreds of yards. You run in place at a 7 min pace for 5 min (basic treadmill). NOW imagine you have to not only run in place, but you actually have to keep moving forward towards the end of the treadmill WHILE its moving backwards on you. I can guarantee you that your glutes and hamstrings are going to be lighting up in the latter situation. This is because you actually have to ADVANCE over the ground versus the ground moving underneath you.

I'm not claiming you are not using muscles, I'm making the claim that the muscle groups you are using are using are very different than while running outside on stationary ground.

And the take home was that this will affect deconditioned people who think they can train mostly on treadmills and get away with the same ease outside. For the rest of us, treadmills can be a great tool.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Nick Mallett] [ In reply to ]
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Nick Mallett wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Mad Jee wrote:
"A treadmill actually assists your running"

No.


Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.

So while HR is HR and that's good for training effect, I think most people agree that treadmill used sparingly is good for interval work and occasional workouts. But you can't train on a mill for long and expect to keep the same pace at equal effort. So while HR on a treadmill at 7 min pace might be XX, HR outside at that same 7 min pace is going to be XX+ and youre going to fatigue a lot quicker in your posterior chain muscles.


-----

Attaching some stretch cords to the wall or something heavy behind you and then to a waist band soon makes you engage your glutes and hammies more as you try not to get pulled off the back of the t-mill..

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I would agree. Or even something in front of you applying constant resistance to your chest forcing you to prevent the same thing.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you dont run on tms much .

While the stuff youre saying sounds like it should play out that way, do it and youll find theres no overactivation of glutes and that the tm translates great to real world running. Sure the surface and spring are a bit different but if you even do minimal road work on top youre good to go outdoors.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
I'm not arguing the physics

Yes, you are. And physics will win every time.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Nick Mallett wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Mad Jee wrote:
"A treadmill actually assists your running"

No.


Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.

So while HR is HR and that's good for training effect, I think most people agree that treadmill used sparingly is good for interval work and occasional workouts. But you can't train on a mill for long and expect to keep the same pace at equal effort. So while HR on a treadmill at 7 min pace might be XX, HR outside at that same 7 min pace is going to be XX+ and youre going to fatigue a lot quicker in your posterior chain muscles.


-----

Attaching some stretch cords to the wall or something heavy behind you and then to a waist band soon makes you engage your glutes and hammies more as you try not to get pulled off the back of the t-mill..

---


I would agree. Or even something in front of you applying constant resistance to your chest forcing you to prevent the same thing.

What do you think the belt is doing?!?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Imagine there is a flat and straight treadmill for hundreds of yards. You run in place at a 7 min pace for 5 min (basic treadmill). NOW imagine you have to not only run in place, but you actually have to keep moving forward towards the end of the treadmill WHILE its moving backwards on you. I can guarantee you that your glutes and hamstrings are going to be lighting up in the latter situation. This is because you actually have to ADVANCE over the ground versus the ground moving underneath you.

or maybe you will feel your glute activation because you are now asked to run significantly faster than 7 min pace. If you slow the treadmill down (say to 8min pace) you will move foward while maintaining the same pace/effort/butt activation.
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee wrote:
"Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath."

Again, no. The whole "the belt moves underneath you" argument is totally invalid. The idea that you are just "lifting" to stay in place is ridiculous, next time just stand on the treadmill and jump straight up a few times while the belt moves underneath you and see where you end up.

Other than the lack of air resistance the physics of move forward over a stationary ground are basically identical to moving in place over a ground that's moving backwards beneath you.

If I am already moving backwards on a treadmill and then I jump straight up, of course I am going to land farther back than where I was initially standing. If however I was able to time it exactly and jump at the exact moment the treadmill started then I would land in the same place I started from.

When it comes to physics and distance covered, the ground direction may be irrelevant for say, a wheel? Because the wheel does not have to rely on a specifically located set of muscles to produce energy. It can roll freely. I'm not arguing over the distance covered, I'm arguing over HOW that distance is covered.

Our body is anatomically designed with agonistic and antagonistic muscle groups. For you to deny that posterior chain muscles propel us forward over a stationary surface and that they do the same work while stationary on a backwards moving surface is, as you said, "ridiculous." It requires much less work for those muscles to cover the same amount of ground outside than it does inside.

Hypothetical: EMG electrodes places on the glutes/hammies/quads. Squat down and jump forward on the level ground. Measure force and total distance traveled. Now imagine you could do this and just as you jumped the belt moved underneath you backwards. Measure force output and total distance of the belt traveled. For the same amount of force, the total distance on the treadmill is going to be greater no?
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Re: Treadmill running vs. Actually Running [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir - not missing your point at all. I have run on enough that there are varied intensities across treadmills and I can identify the major outliers (significantly fast or slow). However for me any treadmill feels harder. What about me makes that so and others perceive the opposite?

Airflow is something that I am going to play with this week and see what that does.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Member of FishTwitch - Arriving to T1 alone and watching you go by on the run.
My Blog: http://poseidom.wordpress.com
Last edited by: Poseidon2600: Feb 3, 14 12:07
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