Yes. Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath.

So while HR is HR and that's good for training effect, I think most people agree that treadmill used sparingly is good for interval work and occasional workouts. But you can't train on a mill for long and expect to keep the same pace at equal effort. So while HR on a treadmill at 7 min pace might be XX, HR outside at that same 7 min pace is going to be XX+ and youre going to fatigue a lot quicker in your posterior chain muscles.

Disagree. From practical experience. I did most of my winter runs as a pure runner for marathon training on a TM and it exactly matched outdoor running. I did mix up paces and elevations, but there is no truth in that TMs are lacking for biomechanics of run training. And it's more than just n=1 myself - if you train hard on a TM, you'll run faster outdoors.

You admitted that you mixed up paces and elevations which is how you maximized training effects. And you're also a seasoned runner (assuming?). So this wasn't your only method of training. I agree the treadmill can be used as a great training tool, I use it when I can't get outside, but not as an only means. I know a handful of people who tried training for their road races on a treadmill and were thrilled with their treadmill runs but couldn't understand why race day was so much harder.

The ground IS moving underneath you bottom line. If you use it appropriately then you'll benefit from it sure.

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Attaching some stretch cords to the wall or something heavy behind you and then to a waist band soon makes you engage your glutes and hammies more as you try not to get pulled off the back of the t-mill..



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The heart rate argument is correct. Obviously 1 hr at 160 H.R. is as difficult on a treadmill as it is on the road.
There are some obvious differences between a treadmill running and non-treadmill running.
The effect of wind is one. The link below shows how different paces on a treadmill correspond to different paces in the real world combined and how treadmill incline can adjust.
It is true that the treadmill is not much easier at 10 minute miles. It is also true that it is a lot easier at 5 minute miles.

http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

Something that this does not consider is running form.
I think bouncers (or bounders) will really see a huge, unrealistic, improvement in there treadmill speed.

I disagree on the HR front. My HR on a treadmill is generally 5 beats higher for a given speed than outside. Outside my 'easy pace' is in the 7:30-7:45 range with a HR in the 145 range. On a treadmill my HR is easily 150 or higher. I definitely only use a treadmill when I have to, and unfortunately that has been more than I would prefer this winter.

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The only difference will be no wind drag and consistent surface in terms of traction, cracks, holes, and elevation chances.

My understanding of physics tells me that me moving over the ground vs. the ground moving under me is absolutely identical. If you put on a blindfold and run in a vacuum (no wind drag) you would be unable ot distinguish the two other than the surface itself.

I also believe that th softness of the surface is somewhat relative. You body tends ot "run softer" when presented with a harder surface. I thought there was a study showing no difference in injury rate from running gravel vs. asphault vs concrete after allowing for a short period of adaptation.

I do find that the treadmill is great for intervals as your speed is held constant. You cna focus more on you form, cadence and breathing and less on your pace, traffic, etc.

Now, it is more of a mental challenge for sure. The longest run I've managed this winter has been 75 minutes. But i have a long run planned on Thursday, and I don't see myself running 16 miles in 0F at 5:00AM. So it might be on the treadmill instead.


My favorite treadmill pleasure, are those that are limited to 60 minute workouts, like when I was on a cruise ship last week. So I had to warm-up, reset it, do my workout, reset, then cool down. iIt was a shock to be cranking along at a 6:00 tempo pace and suddenly the thing drops down to the preset 15:00/mi "jog" speed...to cool down. which is like a brisk walking pace.

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http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

Most questions are answered there.

While I believe the chart and resistance from wind factors, the trump reality is that TM calibrations are usually slightly different as I keep bringing up.

All that wind and other adjustments are meaningless compared to the TM calibration. If your TM is calibrated slightly slow, it'll feel hard to run on for the same displayed pace. You can talk all you want about the variables making Tm vs real world different, but they're all moot compared to the overarching factor of how well the TM is calibrated, and even to what standard it's calibrated to.

I'm also not sure why people tend to complain about TM pacing so much - outdoor pacing is just as variable due to the different elevation, terrain, wind, and turns. If anything, a good Tm is much more precise than outdoor running if you only use that TM.

Was about to post something similar. Go to a gym and run a particular pace for a mile on 5 different treadmills and they'll all feel different.

Nate...your heart rate is likely higher just because of cooling effects not existing on the treadmill. Are you using a fan?

All good post. Sometimes basic facts are missed, in favor of dramatic arguments.
On a side note, I saw two people arguing.
Runner one- the course was short. My Garmin says so.
Runner two- yeah. The course was short but .2 longer than your watch says. My Garmin says.....

Oddlly, this is the one case were the Garmin worshippers were not totally wrong. Race director admits course is short but chose to not adjust or restate distance on this trail race, so that people could compare their times from year to year.

I often wondered why treadmills always tell you, you are running faster than you really are.

I know several occasional exercisers in there 40s who can run under 19 for 5 k. Here is how their reasoning goes:
1) I can run 7 min/miles on the treadmill. (The treadmill is, of course correct, at a 0% incline).
2) A 5 k is three miles. I can run 1 mile in 7 minutes during a workout. That means I should be able to run 3 at a much faster pace in a race. 19 should be easy.

They tell you not to argue with an idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Anyway, part of me thinks it would be a simple enough matter for treadmill makers and gyms to correct the problem. And that they do not, because they like the fact that your dollars can buy imaginary speed. (Though real running speed might be just as easily achieved for free).

Sheesh..these guys are arguing about distance in a TRAIL race? WTF? Get a life. It is a trail race for a reason...you want precise distance go to an IAAF certified course, or run on you local 400m track!!!

"Treadmill belt moves underneath you and we only use predominantly anterior muscles to lift our legs in that situation. Outside we actually need glutes and hamstrings to contract and help propel us forward as well as slow down the leg. On a treadmill, hip flexors doing a lot more work to lift the leg to meet the speed that the belt is moving underneath."

Again, no. The whole "the belt moves underneath you" argument is totally invalid. The idea that you are just "lifting" to stay in place is ridiculous, next time just stand on the treadmill and jump straight up a few times while the belt moves underneath you and see where you end up.

Other than the lack of air resistance the physics of move forward over a stationary ground are basically identical to moving in place over a ground that's moving backwards beneath you.

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Portside Athletics Blog

I feel the same way about body position. Outside I can feel myself lean forward and drive with my hips more. It's much harder for me to do that on the treadmill.

I am racing Puerto Rico a couple weeks before Flower City, but I would imagine I will still sign up and race that again. I'll see you there and then again at Keuka.

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I've found an hour is an hour no matter what I'm doing.

However, I can definitely finish a workout faster on the treadmill as its in my basement, so I don't need to plan and dress for the weather, but it is slightly offset by my pace being noticeably faster outside so its really a net zero for me.

But if I watch TV on the treadmill (or the trainer) then I guess there is a 2 to 1 ratio as I completed a workout and watched a show at the same time.

A few years ago I did Boston and trained primarily on the t/m. Fast forward to race day, and my quads were hamburger before 10k. Why? Because the t/m is a soft, cushioned run. Then running as fast as you can for 26.2 on asphault and cement pavement did me in. Now I do my speed work on the t/m but always run at least two times a week outside. This may not happen to everyone, but for me it was a disaster.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

I'm in the same boat, and thought I was going crazy - running at 7.5mph (8min/mi, 5min/km) I can do all day long on the road, and on the mill it felt so much harder. Then I got a footpod. Turns out that the mill's 7.5mph is in fact something like 4.40min/km, which is 7.30min/mi or 8mph.

All I can say is that I want all those miles I logged at a too low speed in the 100/100 back. Or added. Or whatever.

What remains though is the mental mindfuck (how's that for redundancy).

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I actually think it's harder than it sounds to precisely calibrate a TM. I don't think it's as simple as belt distance, or even if it was, the accuracy of the belt measurement would have to be so accurate given the number of rpms that it would be difficult to precisely calibrate per mile. The variability of TMs even at premium gyms like Equinox in the same gym make me suspect this.

I also suspect that home TMs, even good ones like SoleF80 probably change speed slightly with runner weight (but I'm speculating here, I don't know for sure). I know for sure that when you listen to the engine motor sound between myself and my wife who's 40 pounds lighter than me, it sounds noticeably different on my F80. I could be wrong but I can't help but think there's more stress on the engine moving my weight rather than hers - it sure sounds like it.

I read a study that said the difference between indoor and outdoor increases the faster you go as the wind resistance is higher. That paces above high 4min kms is slow enough that an incline isn't needed.

As much as I'd rather run outside. With my bad run of injuries over last 6months. Many of my runs are done on the treadmill as it's much easier in the legs. And I can get off as doonan s I feel pain.

I know Alberto Salazar and his group use it a lot.

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Are you sure it wasn't because the first 10k at Boston are straight downhill and most treadmills can't do negative grades?

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Portside Athletics Blog

Pretty sure. I have done Boston twice and the second time in my prep I did a lot more outdoor running.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

I tend to agree with Barry. When you train on treadmill all the time, you can run more sloppy and pound the belt hard with no negative consequence. It is easier to get lulled into this. When you run outside, you have to run a bit "softer" to account for the hard pavement. By the way, I did one Boston were I did almost all my weekday runs on the treadmill and once per week I ran a 39 min 10K "DOWNHILL" on a minus 2 to minus 4 percent grade. I did this by elevating the back end of my treadmill so that it is "level" at a 4% grade, which allowed me to go to minus 4 at zero percent grade. You need a decent horsepower motor to lift you uphill on every stride and it is helpful to be a smaller athlete so that your treadmill has to lift you "uphill" less on each stride. I also had a fan running on the motor for these workouts. Both days on the weekend I had outdoor runs. That was my best race in Boston, but it could just be a function of having a decent winter of mileage and starving myself in March to drop around 7 lbs and get down to 137 lbs from 144 lbs.

Funny that you mention this, because I had the same question so decided to try it out by putting my bike on the treadmill.

First, i set the bike on the treadmill without me sitting on it, and looking at the speed at all the preset speeds (i.e. 2 to 12mph in steps of 2mph). Turns out, the speed was spot on on my Sole F83. It was also very stable.

Next, I did the same thing but with me sitting on the bike. The added weight slows the treadmill down, but then it measures its own speed, knows it's off and increases it until it is again spot on. The treadmill motor has to work harder, but the speed is still what it should be.

Did the same thing with the treadmill at 15% incline, no difference.

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