Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
TrainerRoad adaptive training
Quote | Reply
TrainerRoad has announced a new Adaptive Training Program. I assume it's primarily for cyclists, but the basic idea is that the plan will adjust individual workouts based on your goals, fitness, and previous workouts. It's like having an AI coach. Thoughts? Below is a link that provides a basic overview. There is also a 2+ hour podcast- I haven't listened to it yet.

Adaptive Training: The Right Workout. Every Time. - TrainerRoad
Last edited by: Changpao: Feb 26, 21 5:33
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Changpao wrote:
TrainerRoad has announced a new Adaptive Training Program. I assume it's primarily for cyclists, but the basic idea is that the plan will adjust individual workouts based on your goals, fitness, and previous workouts. It's like have a AI coach. Thoughts? Below is a link that provides a basic overview. There is also a 2+ hour podcast- I haven't listened to it yet.

Adaptive Training: The Right Workout. Every Time. - TrainerRoad

I was watching the livestream on youtube (haven't watched the whole thing yet though) and it seems like it will have some really awesome features.

It's supposed to be able to also adjust based on your relative strengths and weaknesses (are you a sprinter or a threshold type, or somewhere in between), as well as grading their library of workouts based on where you are as a rider.

Obviously there will be some similarities to Xert, but I think TrainerRoad has a much larger dataset to work from.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Feb 25, 21 11:08
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Changpao wrote:
TrainerRoad has announced a new Adaptive Training Program. I assume it's primarily for cyclists, but the basic idea is that the plan will adjust individual workouts based on your goals, fitness, and previous workouts. It's like have a AI coach. Thoughts? Below is a link that provides a basic overview. There is also a 2+ hour podcast- I haven't listened to it yet.

Adaptive Training: The Right Workout. Every Time. - TrainerRoad


I was watching the livestream on youtube (haven't watched the whole thing yet though) and it seems like it will have some really awesome features.

It's supposed to be able to also adjust based on your relative strengths and weaknesses (are you a sprinter or a threshold type, or somewhere in between), as well as grading their library of workouts based on where you are as a rider.

I think they are responding to competition. Xert is in the semi AI range (not really AI), there is a supposedly AI platform out there though I don't know all that much about it but I heard a podcast on it, and well Sufferfest is trying to use more metrics to hone in on where your fitness is and what rider type you are. So I think that is the big reason so that they stay with the wave. There are a few out there and I think the old hard baked training plans are becoming a thing of the past. Alan Couzens is also very into AI for training and has posted here in past.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
s5100e wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Changpao wrote:
TrainerRoad has announced a new Adaptive Training Program. I assume it's primarily for cyclists, but the basic idea is that the plan will adjust individual workouts based on your goals, fitness, and previous workouts. It's like have a AI coach. Thoughts? Below is a link that provides a basic overview. There is also a 2+ hour podcast- I haven't listened to it yet.

Adaptive Training: The Right Workout. Every Time. - TrainerRoad


I was watching the livestream on youtube (haven't watched the whole thing yet though) and it seems like it will have some really awesome features.

It's supposed to be able to also adjust based on your relative strengths and weaknesses (are you a sprinter or a threshold type, or somewhere in between), as well as grading their library of workouts based on where you are as a rider.

I think they are responding to competition. Xert is in the semi AI range (not really AI), there is a supposedly AI platform out there though I don't know all that much about it but I heard a podcast on it, and well Sufferfest is trying to use more metrics to hone in on where your fitness is and what rider type you are. So I think that is the big reason so that they stay with the wave. There are a few out there and I think the old hard baked training plans are becoming a thing of the past. Alan Couzens is also very into AI for training and has posted here in past.

Apparently this has been in development for about 3 years, so while there is an element of responding to the competition, this has been a long term vision of the company. I think Nate said that this is one of the things that he wanted to do way back when he first started TR.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If it delivers what it promises then this should be really helpful for cycling progression.

I've been a TR user for some years but like many who use the turbo because of time constraints and other priorities, have never been able to stick to any of the plans, which has always required a bit of guesswork when picking a workout.

Triathlon plans though would be pretty hard to do, as would require data input from an athlete's other sports for the software to make the right suggestion. If they are rolling this out then even better.

I'll be interested to see if it moves away from TRs focus on excessive sweetspot.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:

It's supposed to be able to also adjust based on your relative strengths and weaknesses (are you a sprinter or a threshold type, or somewhere in between), as well as grading their library of workouts based on where you are as a rider.


SUF (Sufferfest) also does something very similar. After a 4DP test the set of 4 metrics are used to scale each subsequent workout according to that profile . E.g. if you kick ass at sprinting, but suck at FTP, it'll scale down FTP intervals while scaling up sprint intervals. It'll also pick workouts to address weaknesses/strengths.

The differences appear to be that TR plans to dynamically adjust these relative scores continually, even on the basis of workout results. While SUF, I think, just updates them as the result of explicit testing. (though you can always manually adjust the 4 scaling factors) So same intent, but SUF is the crude version compared to Xert/VeloPro, and now TR. (though crude isn't necessarily bad).
Last edited by: trail: Feb 25, 21 11:48
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agreed, one-size fits all training plans will become a thing of the past.

AI Endurance creates AI training plans not just for cycling or running but also cycling + running combined. Might be of interest for the triathletes here. Disclaimer: I'm the founder and have created the app so am certainly biased.

For some more info you can check out our website

https://aiendurance.com

and related to TR's new update:

https://aiendurance.com/blog/how-do-i-choose-the-right-ai-training-plan

In the future, we'll also hopefully include swimming but it is more difficult than running and cycling due to data quality and abundance.

Founder of AI Endurance
https://aiendurance.com
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [markusrummel] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
markusrummel wrote:
Agreed, one-size fits all training plans will become a thing of the past.

AI Endurance creates AI training plans not just for cycling or running but also cycling + running combined. Might be of interest for the triathletes here. Disclaimer: I'm the founder and have created the app so am certainly biased.

For some more info you can check out our website

https://aiendurance.com

and related to TR's new update:

https://aiendurance.com/blog/how-do-i-choose-the-right-ai-training-plan

In the future, we'll also hopefully include swimming but it is more difficult than running and cycling due to data quality and abundance.
Yes I was looking at your site when I responded to this thread, it is one of the AI based programs starting to pop up on the web for this sort of more adaptive training. In fact I dropped Trainer Road because it did not seem to understand what I needed and would prescribe workout that would end up as failures. I think everyone will eventually have some sort of AI based program soon. Training peaks is talking about it etc. So pretty soon every platform will be adaptive or left behind is my guess.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
when is this being rolled out? will it be an upcharge or part of the normal fee?

thanks
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [favata1213] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
favata1213 wrote:
when is this being rolled out? will it be an upcharge or part of the normal fee?

thanks

DC rainmaker has some info which might answer your questions:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...aining-trainnow.html
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [favata1213] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Think it's in beta. Subscribers can apply for priority access. Part of subscription cost hopefully.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [favata1213] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It will be included in the normal fee.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [jn46] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There is also 2peak.com (I am using it but they are not a sponsor) in the AI realm.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
s5100e wrote:
.........In fact I dropped Trainer Road because it did not seem to understand what I needed and would prescribe workout that would end up as failures.

This is you failing yourself much more than it is Trainerroad failing you.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Very true...and the biggest reason why a coach is so valuable. I suck at coaching myself.

As a person who works in building models from data, it is really hard to get models from data to tell you things you don't already know. Maybe it will offer a more objective measure of what to do. My guess is that this will be hard to live up to the hype. But I would be happy to be wrong, cause I'll be using it as soon as it becomes available to me.

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [markusrummel] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
markusrummel wrote:
Agreed, one-size fits all training plans will become a thing of the past.

AI Endurance creates AI training plans not just for cycling or running but also cycling + running combined. Might be of interest for the triathletes here. Disclaimer: I'm the founder and have created the app so am certainly biased.

For some more info you can check out our website

https://aiendurance.com

I've looked at the website and I'll absolutely have to give the free trial a shot, once I'm finished with my current plan.

Trainerroad seems to have put support for multisport athletes on the backburner. They're no longer even mentioning run workout import, etc., and have skipped the relatively simple task of including duathlons under race types to choose from. Which is fine.
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 26, 21 3:30
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
s5100e wrote:

.........In fact I dropped Trainer Road because it did not seem to understand what I needed and would prescribe workout that would end up as failures.


This is you failing yourself much more than it is Trainerroad failing you.

I beg to differ, if the training is prescribing a workout beyond where I can go then the program is not meeting "my" needs. That was where I found it failed... While an adaptive program realizes based upon the current situation of training etc that this is NOT the right prescription and suggests something more appropriate. If that was not the case there would be no reason for coaches or AI/ adaptive programs... So depending upon your situation things like W prime or in Xert parlance MPA (similar concept) addresses some of that. So if the workout takes you way past your W prime/ MPA then the program does not have the right info needed to give you the right workout. Dumb plans are just that Dumb.

An article in PEZ cycling Toolbox looked at using HRV as a means of determining workout load. They found that that adaptive approach was useful. Adaptive training without a real live intelligent coach is hard to do, but hard baked dumb plans are far worse than an adaptive plan which is not the equal of a coach but far better than a dumb plan... just my 2 cents worth.

I am sure as a coach you would not set your workout prescription for your client without understanding what they are capable of and using only FTP is not a good guide as I am sure you use many items to determine what is the right action for your athlete.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Been using Xert for this specific reason, for 2 years

Awesome addition for TR
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I started using Xert again for this issue as well.

Perhaps someone can answer this: Is trainerroad going to feed workouts that increase your ability to do well on the FTP test or on a desired duration?

I have Xert working on 3 min power for me because of the demands of my racing right now. Can TR do that?
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mvenneta wrote:
Been using Xert for this specific reason, for 2 years

Awesome addition for TR

can Xert now do both running and cycling in the same account, or is it still ignoring run load on the cycling account and vice versa?
that killed even trying Xert for me, can't do two plans that totally ignore each other
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don’t run anymore :)

But pretty sure it’s not consolidated like you’d want, but might need to double check me
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I started using Xert again for this issue as well.

Perhaps someone can answer this: Is trainerroad going to feed workouts that increase your ability to do well on the FTP test or on a desired duration?

I have Xert working on 3 min power for me because of the demands of my racing right now. Can TR do that?

From watching the podcast, yes. Well, they do that already, but they don't have a metric to capture whether you are improving your 3 minute power besides periodically looking at the shift in your power/duration curve. As I understand it, They are basically assigning a "score" to your performance at various points on the p/d curve, and have categorized all of the workouts in their library to be able to select the appropriate workout for you, at your current fitness, to address your specific goals, with the time constraints you have, etc. They are working on the ability to also categorise your unstructured training / outside rides as well, so that will feed into the model and better select an appropriate workout. It sounds like it will be really good.

I highly recommend you watch the podcast on youtube. They talk about this stuff for 2 hours.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I started using Xert again for this issue as well.

Perhaps someone can answer this: Is trainerroad going to feed workouts that increase your ability to do well on the FTP test or on a desired duration?

I have Xert working on 3 min power for me because of the demands of my racing right now. Can TR do that?

I started on Xert (on the free trial) but I have a couple of issues with it.

1) I don't really believe their numbers. I fed it 3 months of data from Strava (or whatever the maximum is) to start, then it's been getting all of my rides. It's been telling me that my FTP and 3 minute power are lower now than 2 weeks ago, even though I did an FTP test (ramp test) that increased since my last one.

2) they use some proprietary metrics (eg XSS), which aren't replicated anywhere else. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to TSS, it is a flawed number, but at least I understand the math behind it and what it is telling me thanks to all of the resources out there which talk about TSS.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dgutstadt wrote:
mvenneta wrote:
Been using Xert for this specific reason, for 2 years

Awesome addition for TR


can Xert now do both running and cycling in the same account, or is it still ignoring run load on the cycling account and vice versa?
that killed even trying Xert for me, can't do two plans that totally ignore each other
yes you can in a number of ways. You can enter any kind of effort based event, either manually assuming you can estimate the effort in Xert talk XSS (similar to TSS), or they have the ability to infer effort from heart rate data. This I find tends to underestimate efforts. If you have running power then it acts as it should.

The thing with Xert is because there is a far bit o stuff under the hood and much of it is not common knowledge or their flavour of the thing then the learning curve s steep, but once you get your head wrapped around it from what I have seen and read from other users it works.

Xert also has something no otehr platform has that I am aware of. Something in their workout designer called smart workouts. because they have the ability to determine your rate of fatigue while you are actually performing the effort in real time. So you can drag down your reserve to x% and it will estimate based on your fitness signature how long that should take, if for some reason you are way different from that, ie either faster or slower in time it will change the length of the segment. I forget the % threshold but I believe it is more than say 5 or 10% of the target set in the workout plan.

So there are pretty cool things happening there that are not AI but are using more info than a simple per centage FTP as a means of setting workout efforts and determining your relative change in fitness.
Quote Reply
Re: TrainerRoad adaptive training [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
s5100e wrote:
Xert also has something no otehr platform has that I am aware of. Something in their workout designer called smart workouts. because they have the ability to determine your rate of fatigue while you are actually performing the effort in real time. So you can drag down your reserve to x% and it will estimate based on your fitness signature how long that should take, if for some reason you are way different from that, ie either faster or slower in time it will change the length of the segment. I forget the % threshold but I believe it is more than say 5 or 10% of the target set in the workout plan.

That's actually one of the things that I'm not really a big fan of. If my power numbers are off expected (maybe due to lack of sleep, illness, whatever), then I don't really want the software to change the duration mid-ride. My numbers are off for a reason.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply

Prev Next