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Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW.
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Torbjørn Sindballe
Can we welcome Lance to Tri?

Yesterday I was carried away by the spectacular return of Lance Armstrong to triathlon, however his return sparked many thoughts over the night. How can we welcome someone who is more less the only one of his era to not confront the cycling dope-culture?

No doubt he is a phenomenal athlete in all aspects of the game, physically and mentally, but how much of that is shaped by his legal (due to testicular cancer) testosterone supplementation and most likely years of PED use that may have enabled him to race and train his physique much harder than any pro triathlete in the field?

No doubt his return from cancer and creation of the livestrong foundation are spectacular achievements, but is the foundation spending too much promoting Armstrong and too little actually fighting cancer as an outside mag reporter suggested?

No doubt he has never failed a test, but how then could he ride and beat guys(i.e Basso, Ulrich, and more) who have all admitted using PEDS that boost performance by some 10% ? (that is 40-50 watts at their TT speed = athletes on a different planet!)

This is just a few of the unanswered questions defining the grey shadow trailing Armstrong – it would suit him to confront his past with total transparency like a true champion before embarking on a new journey!
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Was he in Weird Science? See here at 6:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BVCFwzNB9w
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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It is tough to not consider the facts.


What makes the never ending arguments around LA so intriguing is the blend of subjectivity and hope from some with the skepticism and facts of others.


For some reason the voice from Mortal Kombat comes alive when I hear LA in the news, "Round Three. FIGHT!"
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Midnight oil?
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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That is a very fair, even post by Thunder Bear.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks......Good to hear that regardless of one's beliefs on Lance, He is not afraid to speak his opinion...............Though if history serves He will get a backlash
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Tjorborn and Rapp are the standard-bearers for the "thinking man's triathlete."

Their well-chosen comments are also likely reflected in their well chosen equipment choices. Thoughtful, articulate athletes are more valuable to their sponsors.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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I think he will because, afterall it will still be the same "If you're not with us, you're against us mentality. Hell I got some yesterday for griping about the lack of women's coverage, updates, or, well, congrats for Naeth.

What I fear is Lance turning transition areas into some "hard target" security zone and making the normal camaraderie absent. Last year at Eman 70.3 I wish many pros good luck and shook some hands. I doubt that will be possible with the new Lance Rules. Oh well.

That said, I never, ever consider or knew that Lance had a TUE for testosterone, but looking back it would make sense if he did.

Bob
Last edited by: Macho Grande: Feb 13, 12 7:34
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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He's never failed a test, except for those tests he failed.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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I heard LA didn't sleep last night because of this comments...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
Last edited by: camaleon: Feb 13, 12 7:40
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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I know 'everyone' has their opinions, but if I were a pro, and I am not, I would not say ANYTHING about how Lance will never be able to "_____." It seems like every time someone makes a statement like this, they look like a fool. Ahem, Rasmus? Why don't they talk like 99% of the other triathletes and talk about how under trained they are, the injuries they are working through, that it's not their "A" race, they just signed up a few days ago...ya know, sh*$ triathletes say? Calling out someone like Lance, really only solidifies he will beat you. It is motivation for guys like him.

And for all the people that say that he is using PEDs and he has some alliance with the WTC with testing, etc., friggin' stop watching so much fantasy television. The guy is fast, he ALWAYS has been. Those that criticize him that he got 2nd in his 1st 1/2 IM... I am curious as to how the BEST triathlete would do in a pro cycling race. Think they would get 2nd? Maybe counting from the back.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
I know 'everyone' has their opinions, but if I were a pro, and I am not, I would not say ANYTHING about how Lance will never be able to "_____." It seems like every time someone makes a statement like this, they look like a fool. Ahem, Rasmus? Why don't they talk like 99% of the other triathletes and talk about how under trained they are, the injuries they are working through, that it's not their "A" race, they just signed up a few days ago...ya know, sh*$ triathletes say? Calling out someone like Lance, really only solidifies he will beat you. It is motivation for guys like him.

And for all the people that say that he is using PEDs and he has some alliance with the WTC with testing, etc., friggin' stop watching so much fantasy television. The guy is fast, he ALWAYS has been. Those that criticize him that he got 2nd in his 1st 1/2 IM... I am curious as to how the BEST triathlete would do in a pro cycling race. Think they would get 2nd? Maybe counting from the back.

x2 with this...

seem like some Pros are butt hurt cause a dude who is 40 years old with one ball and 2 or 3 years into retirement just BEAT them...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Someone might want to explain to TS that LA was pretty darn fast well before he got cancer. He might want to look at some of his accomplishments at the age of 17, 18, 19, well before cancer and drug allegations.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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I'll disagree and say this is a pretty weak statement from TS. I started replying to Rapp's thread, but it disappeared. I find Sindballe's comments to be garbage, either make an accusation or don't, none of this thinly veiled crap.

but how much of that is shaped by his legal (due to testicular cancer) testosterone supplementation

I don't understand this charge by TS, has anyone ever brought this up before? Cancer treatment as a performance booster?

but is the foundation spending too much promoting Armstrong and too little actually fighting cancer as an outside mag reporter suggested?

So is he stating the foundation doesn't do enough to fight cancer or not? Out with it TS, don't just ask questions that kind of sound like an accusation but that are veiled enough to back away from.

most likely years of PED use that may have enabled him to race and train his physique much harder than any pro triathlete in the field?

"Most likely years of PED use", again, say it or don't. And it allows him to train harder than "any pro triathlete in the field". Yeah, no triathletes use PEDs.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [summitt] [ In reply to ]
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summitt wrote:
Someone might want to explain to TS that LA was pretty darn fast well before he got cancer. He might want to look at some of his accomplishments at the age of 17, 18, 19, well before cancer and drug allegations.

History matters. A random fast 18 year old with no doping history is not the same as, well, 40something Lance.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [summitt] [ In reply to ]
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summitt wrote:
Someone might want to explain to TS that LA was pretty darn fast well before he got cancer. He might want to look at some of his accomplishments at the age of 17, 18, 19, well before cancer and drug allegations.

Yes lets get together a panel of ST experts to explain to Torbjorn the inside info on pro athlete development and performance,.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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I see TS's statements as legit concerns..............I do not see them as a vieled attempt to say he is doping "now". Like it or not, Lance brings a past. Call them (me) haters or just those that think there is a lot of eveidence out there. I believe there are some legit concerns that this can come back to bite triathlon.
I thinked he doped in the past. Do not understand how some can say he did not. I do not think he doped for these results.......but with a past htere is always a "but"..USADA and WADA have not closed the investigation..............If those two organizations had ongoing investigations on any other pro, would you find TS's comments out of line?
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
summitt wrote:
Someone might want to explain to TS that LA was pretty darn fast well before he got cancer. He might want to look at some of his accomplishments at the age of 17, 18, 19, well before cancer and drug allegations.


Yes lets get together a panel of ST experts to explain to Torbjorn the inside info on pro athlete development and performance,.

I ROFLed

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [summitt] [ In reply to ]
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summitt wrote:
Someone might want to explain to TS that LA was pretty darn fast well before he got cancer. He might want to look at some of his accomplishments at the age of 17, 18, 19, well before cancer and drug allegations.

I think you are missing the crux of what Torbjorn wrote. At least, what I took as the crux. I don't think anyone would ever dispute that Lance is a phenomenal athlete. *IF HE DOPED* (which is certainly an "if"), that didn't make him a great athlete. It's not like he popped some pill that turned him from couch potato into TdF champ. Marion Jones was probably the greatest female high school sprinter of all time (at least until Alyson Felix came along and broke her records), and I'd be fairly sure she did that cleanly, but - ultimately - her performances at the elite level were tainted by PEDs. The drugs did NOT make Marion a great athlete. Likewise, *IF* Lance took drugs, they did not make him a great athlete. There's a reason it's called a "Performance ENHANCING Drug" and not a "Performance Creating Drug."

But the two really salient points are this (as I read it):

- Lance is certainly not the only cyclist to - *as far as I know* - never really address the fact that cycling has a drug problem, but he is the most high profile cyclist to fail to do so. Now, I'm not a Lance-o-phile, so if he has made some very public statement about his commitment to cleaning up the sport in cycling, I may have missed it. But, I do consider myself relatively informed, and I certainly haven't seen anything from him on the larger issue of systematic doping in cycling. Lance's comments have always been related to his own testing history. And I think what Torbjorn is saying is that when you are THE most high profile cyclist in the world, it's a bit disappointing that you haven't made some public comments about cleaning up the sport that is responsible for your fame and fortune. Now, other folks can disagree with that assessment, and it's certainly not Lance's "responsibility" to do anything along those lines, but I think that - as with some of the bigger NFL/NHL names now pushing for greater transparency regarding concussion policy - it's encouraging when a champion makes a commitment to leaving the sport better than they found it. Lance has certainly done that with regards to media/money/etc., but it would cost him nothing and earn a lot of goodwill for him to take a Vaughters-esque (though maybe with a smaller serving of crazy) approach to eradicating doping in cycling at large.

- the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent. Most of the drugs that athletes takes, especially endurance athletes, are designed to enhance recovery. It's not that the drugs make you faster (for endurance sports; anabolics certainly help explosive sports); it's that they allow you to train more. And the benefit of that training load does not disappear once you stop taking drugs. Essentially, if a cyclist was able to ride 35,000km a year for 10 years instead of 25,000km because of drugs, the benefit of that does not go away once they stop taking drugs. In other words, there is evidence that once you have doped, you can never really be truly "clean." *IF* (again, *IF*) Lance was doping for any of the time he was a cyclist, that represents a massive advantage over other athletes. So the fact that he may (and I believe he is) clean now doesn't mean that it is a level playing field. IF (IF, IF, IF!) he doped as a cyclist, that does represent an unfair advantage and one that I think people are justified in being concerned about.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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SwBkRn44 wrote:
I'll disagree and say this is a pretty weak statement from TS. I started replying to Rapp's thread, but it disappeared. I find Sindballe's comments to be garbage, either make an accusation or don't, none of this thinly veiled crap.


but is the foundation spending too much promoting Armstrong and too little actually fighting cancer as an outside mag reporter suggested?

So is he stating the foundation doesn't do enough to fight cancer or not? Out with it TS, don't just ask questions that kind of sound like an accusation but that are veiled enough to back away from.

Perhaps TS foundation is doing more than LA foundation against cancer...





The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Then perhaps he should have come out with these comments before Lance raced well. Now he just sounds like a guy that is creating a built in excuse for if/when he loses.

With all due respect, some of the comments from the pissy pants pros over the last couple days have been embarrassing. It's interesting to me that the champions of the sport have been overwhelmingly positive towards Lance (Rinny, Macca, Crowie, Welchy). It's no wonder they win. They complain about nothing, they just beat everyone.
Last edited by: saltman: Feb 13, 12 8:42
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
summitt wrote:


- the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent. Most of the drugs that athletes takes, especially endurance athletes, are designed to enhance recovery. It's not that the drugs make you faster (for endurance sports; anabolics certainly help explosive sports); it's that they allow you to train more. And the benefit of that training load does not disappear once you stop taking drugs. Essentially, if a cyclist was able to ride 35,000km a year for 10 years instead of 25,000km because of drugs, the benefit of that does not go away once they stop taking drugs. In other words, there is evidence that once you have doped, you can never really be truly "clean." *IF* (again, *IF*) Lance was doping for any of the time he was a cyclist, that represents a massive advantage over other athletes. So the fact that he may (and I believe he is) clean now doesn't mean that it is a level playing field. IF (IF, IF, IF!) he doped as a cyclist, that does represent an unfair advantage and one that I think people are justified in being concerned about.

I was making the same point (albeit not quite as well) on the David Millar Lifetime Ban (see post below):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#3680568
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

- Lance is certainly not the only cyclist to - *as far as I know* - never really address the fact that cycling has a drug problem... ...but it would cost him nothing and earn a lot of goodwill for him to take a Vaughters-esque (though maybe with a smaller serving of crazy) approach to eradicating doping in cycling at large.

He could have everything to lose by addressing this.

What you're seeing here is consistent with the "don't voice your opinion" athlete of recent times (Michael Jordan perhaps being the founder?). Having a position will alienate some aspect of the population which will (likely) reduce your market --> $'s Is this a Nike guided phenomenon (pre-Decision LeBron, pre-blowup Tiger) or modern marketing 101?

I'm begrudgingly confident he'd survive doping charges with his current stance.

Now imagine he more was "Vaughters-esque" and had been charged/indicted... ...etc.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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saltman wrote:
pissy pants pros

Wow dude
Warriner, Rasmus Henning, and Torbjorn are pissy pants pros now?


careful, thunder bear is a big dude who won all the time with a heart defect.





Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
[


- Lance is certainly not the only cyclist to - *as far as I know* - never really address the fact that cycling has a drug problem, but he is the most high profile cyclist to fail to do so. Now, I'm not a Lance-o-phile, so if he has made some very public statement about his commitment to cleaning up the sport in cycling, .


He has made many statements re: this issue. Not only that, in 2002 he made a sizable contribution to the UCI's anti-doping campaign.


*sorry......couldn't resist*











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