Casey, what I meant was that people should keep their principles to themselves and not inflict their sometimes extreme, whacko views on others. If you choose not to drive a car, that's great. We own an SUV, which is not illegal. The SUV averages 18 miles to the gallon and according to the rigid state of CA standards, does not pollute.

I like to eat meat. Somehow that seems to be a crime nowadays.

I like a good cigar on occasion. We know where that is headed.

There is always a do-gooder waiting at every corner to tell me what I shouldn't be doing and usually trying to litigate it out of existance. Someday the do-gooders will come after something you like.

I'm a pretty good guy. I pay my taxes, obey the laws, employ 5 people, raise good kids, support their activities, go to church on sunday, recylcle, and give to tsunami relief. If people want to drive a hybrid car, eat vegetables and hug trees-knock yourself out. I don't. So I would hope others would be equally tolerant of my choices.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Just to fan the flames a bit...gas in Baghdad, Iraq is going for between 8 and 10 cents per liter...gas in Fallujah, Iraq is usually a penny higher...gas in Kurdistan is about 10 to 12 cents per liter. Have a nice day ;-)

Too bad we don't get any of our gas from Iraq.

How is he creating this number? Is there any validity to it or just an opinion with slanted math? Over what period of time/mileage.

I'd be curious to know...

Lehmkuhler

"So I would hope others would be equally tolerant of my choices."

The problem is that we don't live in a vacuum. Many of our choices (to use a lot of oil, for example) *do* affect others, but at the same time you're upset when others' choices affect you. That seems logical.

Interesting thread.

Cyber Peaceful Tribe handshake to all of you.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

yeah, see that is the thing, you and people like kittycat should not have to give up anything to do this. This should be a WIN all the way around. Same or cheaper car and WAY cheaper fuel with preferably no or almost no pollution. I think it can be done. If we can send someone to the moon, build a tunnel under the English channel, fly faster than the speed of sound, make and move ships bigger than entire city blocks and...... we certainly can figure this out. It just will take someone or group or people with big pockets to figure out how to make money at it and for there to be demand. I happen to think we are just now seeing the demand and it will grow very fast. I heard on the news that people are paying almost as much for a used Prius as a new one because the demand is so high there is a wait to get one....

AutoNation, ... has waiting lists of up to 60 days for hybrids, depending on the location. "This is better than last year," Maroone said, "when some customers had to wait 6-8 months for a new hybrid."

Kelley, who bought his Prius at Al Hendrickson Toyota in Coconut Creek, was lucky.

"There were 450 cars on the lot when I went in and only one Prius, so I got it right away," he said. Kelley also struck a good deal for his car, since he didn't have to pay a premium.

"The Prius is still hot," Al Hendrickson Sr., said. "We don't have one in stock right now and we sell them just as fast as we get them."

"We introduced the Accord hybrid in December and it's been a big seller," said Sam Assisi, general sales director at Pompano Honda. Honda also offers two other hybrid models.

Because of heavy demand, some dealers charge a premium of $2,000 to $4,000 for new hybrids, industry sources say, by tacking on a fee called "market value adjustment" to the list price. Demand for used Prius hybrids in some areas is so strong they are selling for more than new models, they said.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/...?coll=sfla-news-sfla

It is coming, the question is how fast and will it be fast enough to avoid some really big and ugly issues.

I saw a t-shirt on the Internet a while back that had an outline of a cyclist and it read "The revolution will not be motorized."

How poignant.

maybe she is hearing abou the "market value adjustment" mentioned in my other post? A MVA is a extra profit the dealer tacks on because they can simply due to demand. Would be interesting to know the specifics.

You mean like Hummers in suburbia, for example?

lehm, my brother in law is a chief engineer from Ford, and this is what he told me. also I think there was something on the news about it, but was about a year ago.

i don't like math and don't know how he got those numbers--so I'm not the type to ask for mathmatical details.

since I buy used cars only it will be some time before i own a hybrid of some sort. probably won't be getting a "new car" for another 2 years and we'll have to see what the market is for them. i've been able to buy good cars for about 7K--the last one from a friend who was a pharmaceutial rep and the car was only 2 years old! i'd like to stick to this is possible...i hate socking money into cars. i'd rather build a giant garden or something to that effect. or better yet, donate half the money to hiefer and put the rest into a gluttony of a sweet new road bike...lol. Yeah baby!

I'm paying $2.40 a gallon with pleasure. You folks in Cali have it worse than we on the East Coast. You are paying about a $0.50/gallon premium.

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I'll agree here saying that's not really worth going with a hybrid escape for pure money reasons.

If you pardon the Canadian dollars/numbers and my math (which probably has a mistake somewhere)...

Regular Escape $24045 (MSRP $cdn) Hybrid Escape $34345 (MSRP $cdn) Difference $10300 (cdn)

Average fuel economy (50% city, 50% hwy) Regular Escape - 8.5L/100km Hybrid - 6.8L/100km Difference 1.7L/100km

If you look at driving 24000km/year the Regular Escape uses 2040L and the Hybrid 1632L for a difference of 408 Liters of gas. At say $1/L that's only $408cdn a year savings.

You can play with more city driving and higher gas prices but you're still going to be a ways from getting back the $10300. Based on my numbers, you're not buying a hybrid to save money over the comparable model.

Either way, I'll keep driving my Pathfinder. :)

these fuel costs are killing me!!!!!!! no more gas powered lawn mower for me :(.....

I think a lot here are missing the main point...here is the deal

1. world population is increasing (supposed to stabilize between 2029 and 2038 around 7.5 billions which is beyond sustainable according to several experts)

2. resources are limited, in particular gas

Conclusion: if we don't take serious measures we're all going to get screwed (that includes those who think their world is 'friends and family')

Anybody seen the movies Mad Max or The Road Warrior?

Be prepared to eat dog food.

i didn't want to say it myself (i hate looking like a prick), but i do agree with mr. hendric. my commuter bike cost me about $400 plus time to scrounge up the parts and i never have to put gas in it. my wife and i do have an Accord right now, which gets decent gas mileage, but as soon as we can afford it, we'll get a hybrid. i'd love to have a honda insight, but it's a bit too small to be practical for some things. maybe a civic hybrid or a prius. for now, our goal is to go at least a month on a tank of gas (14 or 15 gallons).

we were just talking the other day about how, despite having to pay more for gas, we hope gas prices stay high or get even higher.

I don't mind looking like a prick :)

OK, OK. I tried like hell to stay out of this but since my work day is over and this discussion is a microcosm of a lot of what I do now I have to say this-


Any technology based on the extraction of petroleum is NOT SUSTAINABLE AT ANY PRICE.

Petroleum is just stored solar energy (and sequestered carbon). If we want to preserve our current environmental conditions (or even improve them if not too late), what ever we use for energy has to be based on solar energy (that is a blanket term in my circle for wind, wave, hydrogen, etc.). Petroleum extraction is/was a bridge energy source that allowed us to get where we are today in terms of intelligence (irony intended) but the time is nigh to move on to using a sustainable source that will not destroy our world via warming, war, or any combination of the two.

Check it out- the price of gasoline in the US is so heavily subsidized by our misplaced taxes that it actually is more like $5/gallon (not to mention we don't pay the rest of the world damages for the environmental mayhem we do to the global air, climate, and oceans).

Hybrids are great for now; use as little petroleum as you can cause it's the right thing to do. But ultimately, biodiesel hybrids are even better because it starts to close the carbon cycle a little. Beyond that, put the great minds of the world together to find a non-combustion, non-extractive energy source and then we will all be doing triathlons together. Not just the "wealthy" peoples of this world.

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

I don't disagree with you conclusion. The point I think you are responding to is the one I made about the price of gas spurring the extraction of oil and gas that was not accessible 10 years ago? I am not saying we should rely on those sources at all, I am saying that increase in oil and gas prices is not the force that will bring change because as oil and gas go up it only motivates those companies to drill and explore in places and ways that they couldn't do 10 years ago because of prices. There was no money in it. I think the force that will bring the change is from a private sector business that can engineer a viable solution on private money because they will make money.

  The problem is however that market forces will not do anything in response to long term degradation of the planet. A perfect example of this is air pollution. Until folks started dying in London from unabated coal burning (the precursor to "clean" petroleum) no such thing as an air pollution law existed. The People had to say, "Screw the profit motive, we are dyin' over here!" And so government had to step in before lots of people croaked. If we wait until market forces take over, (and the petroleum industry has a lot invested in when that "magic" replacement is available) an awful lot of damage is going to occur.

Here's a good one people are waiting for- big agriculture vs. big petroleum in the battle over biofuels vs. petroleum. Problem is, (and I know I sound like a conspiracist, but there's a lot of cash to go around between those two, especially given all the petro products the ag world lives by) when profit is the motive, the environment often loses out to margins.

I'm not saying it can't happen that the magic bullet will suddenly put the big petro companies out of business but ...yes, that is what I'm saying. This really is a PEOPLE vs. GREED struggle and as Americans we have to lead. Just because we got ours doesn't make us right or better.

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

I agree. Does anyone really think a failed Texas oilman (Harken Industries--SEC violations notwithstanding) will do anything to improve the situation for his pals?

Seamus

Humans deserve everything we get. It's amazing how simultaneously brilliant and idiotic our species can be.

"Utahns who believe Hummers are for wussies and far too diminutive to suit their lifestyles are in luck. Now there's a way to express their disdain for those who whine about high gasoline prices and fuel efficiency. International Truck and Engine has introduced its new CXT diesel pickup to the Utah marketplace. Short for "commercial extreme truck," the vehicle is billed as the world's largest production pickup... The CXT gets a thrifty eight to 10 miles per gallon."

- Salt Lake Tribune

do you buy all of your goods "green"? dish soap, laundry detergent, soap in general, candles you burn, the wall paper on your walls, paint in your house, carpet, flooring, have additional lighting resouces, buy organic foods, clothes made from organic materials by organic practicing clothesmakers, recycle, compost, re-use at every possible occurance, etc?

if you say "no" to anyone of these circumstances, then stop pointing the finger at everyone else, and start working on yourself.

it's easy to bitch about the guy who drives a big car, races down the highway, tops off at the wrong time, or drives 3 blocks to the store. but it's a whole other thing to make a committment, take action, reach out into your own grassroots life and neighborhood. why? because it takes work! it takes persistency!

So, look at yourself. Stop being so accusatory and start taking action. What are you doing that you can change? Does your house have solar panels? Are you hand growing vegetables for your own family--how about enough to share/sell in your neighborhood? Do you recycle? Do all of your neighbors? If not, then start here and quit bitching. What about setting up a neighborhood compost site if there isn't one?

I'd like to see what action you take to actually make the world a better place socially and environmentally because your bitching could be considered pollution just as well.

Like I said, it's easier to sit back and bitch than it is to revolutionize your own life and those around you. And it starts at your own grassroots, not at pointing the finger.

Well, here's my plan to do my small part to minimize our dependence on oil...

My next car will be a hybrid, BUT I'm holding off until automakers come out with a small hybrid station wagon. We have an 13 year old Subaru wagon (small engine version - 90hp) and a 3 year old Jetta Wagon (small engine version - 110hp). Both get about 30 mpg and they are the perfect cars for hauling us and our two pups. It may be a few years before we get that hybrid, because I don't believe in buying new cars, nor do I like to flip cars since the resource impact required to build new cars is significant. So I wait...

I've thought about buying a used Insight in the meantime, as the prices have come down nicely. I keep toying with that idea and maybe when the checking account = price I'll consider it again strongly.

OG&E allows you to sell power back to the grid, so I'm going to install 3 5' wind turbines in my backyard (2 acres). Oklahoma is a windy place, so wind turbines are very effective. I haven't done a calculation recently, but I suspect I'll be able to run my meter backwards for 25-50% of the time. I'd also like to add solar panels, but they are costly so I'll have to hold off until I can afford them. The payback time will be quite lengthy, but I don't care. Once I can afford the panels I'll buy them. In the meantime we pay slightly more per month to buy wind power from OG&E.

I actually find it fun to try and see how little we can consume and how little energy we can use. We have started a large vegetable garden, put in a compost bin, have well water, and a septic system. I'm hoping we eventually won't have an electric bill once the alternatives are up and running. Aside from the DSL internet connection there is a nice feeling of independence we're developing and like I said, I find it fun to see what we can do. A lot of this is just in it's infancy for us right now as we both just finished grad school 1 year ago, but we're working on it.

Oh... Forgot one other thing. We've eliminated the possibility of having kids. With nearly 7 billion people already, enough is enough.

Hopefully, our small part will offset one UGLY AMERICAN who just doesn't give a shit (no shortage of those!).

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T