Good for you. That's great to hear.

I wonder what age do people stop riding bikes in North America? In my neighbourhood, every kid seems to ride a bike, but I rarely see an adult on a bike. In fact, on my street, I think that I am the only adult who rides a bike. Of course, I ride it for fun and fitness( my good road bike), but I also ride it( my hybrid) to the grocery store( where I note they don't even have bike racks!!) and I go out for fun rides with my son to the park, to soccer practice and to the library( where there are bike racks, but they are always empty!)


When does the bike riding stop?

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think you missed the point, although I agree Hook 'em could have said it better. I don't think Hook 'em was saying "it's not Americans' fault." I think the point was that with the quickly growing economies in India and China, and the sheer sizes and populations of those countries, they are rapidly eating into the oil supply that Americans have traditionally been able to use, because no one else was consuming the way we do. Now, with the two most populous countries in the world beginning to approach our levels of consumption, the shit is hitting the fan. So, it's not that we (Americans) are necessarily consuming more and getting more greedy with the oil supply, it's that other countries (India and China, in particular) are beginning to approach our levels of consumption, and the supply is dwindling exponentially.

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Steve Perkins

Talk about a small world... Who is the number one consumer of energy on this planet, by a large margin? Pollution? They may be growing fast, but they've got a long ways to go. And what's worse, they are growing quickly in order to be more like us, with our rediculous consumption habits... Not a good sign.

Lehmkuhler


You've got it partially right. I don't disagree the US is the largest consumer, but what makes prices go up or down all depends on the last increment of demand. Simple Econ 101. And it's countries like China and India growing and consuming at a more rapid pace than the US. I'm not saying that is wrong. Hell, part of the reason they are growing is to supply us with goods and services.

And talk about pollution. Ever been to Mexico City? China? I think you would be surprised at how lax other countries are on emissions. But your right - If every country was like us it would be a friggin disaster.

$1.97 Last night in NJ. My '90 Sentra (165K) gets about 33 per. I put in $8 on Mondays and Thursdays, so I always make sure I have beer money left.

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

You're right. My point was simply that we have no right to bitch about other countries' oil consumption.

I'm not saying that Americans are "becoming" greedy with the oil supply. I'm saying that Americans have been greedy with the oil supply/consumption for decades. We've made it so appealing to the rest of the world, that now they want to play too. And as you say, "the shit is hitting the fan" and I believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg...

Lehmkuhler

And... YOU are right, as well. :)

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Steve Perkins

Typical American attitude...

You missed my point. American's have less control over the price of gasoline than you think. Domestic natural gas - yes, as we produce all of our own demand until LNG really ramps up. Oil is a different story. My point was that the growth is not coming from the US. I never said we weren't the biggest consumer. My point is we could even decline slightly in demand but as long as China, India and others are becoming more modern and industrialized, we have less of an impact. Econ 101.

Talk to the Chinese. They are stockpiling crude to feed their booming manufacturing economy and appetite for automobiles that will soon outpace the Americans.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Well... my post was directed at jhendric, not you, and I don't believe I said anything about Americans not having been greedy in the past... just that we have traditoinally been able to count on the oil being there, because no one even came close to matching our consumption rate. As we both agree... that is rapidly changing, and I agree... we have yet to see the worst.

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Steve Perkins

"I don't get this attitude at all. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, then they don't understand anything at all?"

You don't understand that attitude because you are intelligent.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise."
--F. Scott Fitzgerald

I think you missed the point, although I agree Hook 'em could have said it better. I don't think Hook 'em was saying "it's not Americans' fault." I think the point was that with the quickly growing economies in India and China, and the sheer sizes and populations of those countries, they are rapidly eating into the oil supply that Americans have traditionally been able to use, because no one else was consuming the way we do. Now, with the two most populous countries in the world beginning to approach our levels of consumption, the shit is hitting the fan. So, it's not that we (Americans) are necessarily consuming more and getting more greedy with the oil supply, it's that other countries (India and China, in particular) are beginning to approach our levels of consumption, and the supply is dwindling exponentially.


You're a smart man!

I absolutely agree that we're not in control of much of the global oil economy, but that is the problem. What I hate to see is how absolutely dependent upon oil we have become. Other economies can live without the oil much better than we can. In effect, we have developed such a weakness in our economy/society that we can be completely crippled by forces outside our control. Basically, China and India can increase their consumption, which raises our prices, to be more like us and supply us with Wal-Mart trash, and by doing so, destroy our economy.

Doesn't seem like we've built a very sound foundation for this economy since we depend on one variable so heavily. But what the hell do I know...

Lehmkuhler

I did miss your point. My apologies.

In my community and nearby, there is a large population of Mexicans. They get around by using two modes: riding their bicycles or packing way-too-many into a pickup truck. Other than them, the occasional Unix-geek techie commuting, and roadies/tri-geeks, it's almost unheard of.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

You're very lucky. I don't think the average american could OWN a house, cars, and have a huge savings and retirement fund by being frugal...since one way or another they are going to have to pay rent, find a vehicle to drive, and pay for other living expenses. Especially when you consider that a lot of college student are starting off life in the work force already in debt up to their eyes. Maybe they could do it if they saved all their extra money...it should only take them 15, 20, maybe 30 years to do it. Unless of course they can find a place to live for free (or next to nothing).

If you tell me that you and your wife are pulling in less than 40 or 50k a year combined and started off in the work force with big college loans, then I'll stand corrected.

Dawn you're missing the point. I agree that we are gluttons as americans and don't know how good we've got it. that's not the point. the point is that it's stupid to wish for gas to get more and more and more expensive because it will cause on the grand scale economic disaster. we are already loosing manufacturing to other countries due to cost and we are not in a great job market. if it were as simple as all of us just "paying a little more for gas" then that would be easy. but, it's bigger than that. it's as big as more manufacturing going over seas, your broccali going up way past a mere 3 dollars to 7 or 8 dollars or more per head, and lines out of the gas station a block long (like it was in the 70's), consumer spending dropping in the toilet, so then companies need to downsize even more because people do not buy anything, the housing market tanking, etc etc etc.

it's not a social issue of us being gluttons and we deserve to learn lessons. it's an economic issue to where I could loose my business, you could loose your job, your husband could loose his job, and interest rates are so high that people can't borrow money, and so on and so on.

the *real* cost of energy as you put it, has already gone up significantly, and couple that with EPA requirements that cost manufacturers a fortune, alot of things have gone overseas.

other countries can think what they want about our prices on gas. and it is not a fair comparison to say "getting by" when they have huge unemployment rates, nowhere near the same EPA requirements that our manufacturers have (not to mention the demands of unions) etc. Plus we are capitalists. It is the american spirit that has gotten our economy so strong in the first place. We should not be punished for this.

again, this is purly about grand scale economics, and the real cost of energy is more than what you and I put into our gas tanks. and it's certainly a hell of alot more than buying a 3 dollar head of broccoli.

the bottom line is that high gas prices lead to inflation. when that happens it's serious. we have not had significant inflation for years. when it happens it is painful, and with the increase of globalization it will be even more painful. you think the stock market tanked after 9/11...well, if these gas prices lead to high inflation you ain't seen nothing yet baby. you think the job market went into the toilet after 9/11, again, high inflation will be alot worse than any of the after effects of 9/11.

So with all of this said, it is stupid to wish that on our country and global economy. And doing so means that this person doesn't understand what they're saying (or at least I would hope so).

let's re-open this dialogue when your grocery bill doubles in price per week, and someone in your family has lost a job.

 Adult bike riding. . ."it's almost unheard of."

Again, I am wondring why that is? We start kids off well, get them bikes at a young age. They ride everywhere on them and then . . . . no one rides a bike.

I am not one of these total ban-cars-bike-zealots, just curious as to why something( a bicycle) that is so inexpensive to run and so utilitarian to use is completely rejected by adult North Americans.

I had to laugh in the check-out line at the grocery store the other day. I overheard a women complaining that she had to park so far away in the parking lot. She could have parked her bike almost right at the front door! The bike is not the solution for everything - obviously you can't do a weeks worth of grocery shopping on a bike, but many people I see in the grocery store are buying what could easily fit into a back-pack!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Ok let's take a breath here. I saw the comment above about if your car doesn't get at least 30mpg you have no right to complain. First, gas is still cheaper than any other time adjusted for inflation or at least close. Second, the increase in gas will eventually have an effect on everything you buy so the higher it goes the more it cost everyone, even you Prius drivers:)

I work for a company that builds piplines so it is a double edge sword for me but before you guys wish yourselves into $5/ gallon just stop and think about how it will get you one way or the other, no one is exempt.

You're right. My wife and I had this crazy idea to get good educations (we both worked our way through college and didn't rely on student loans) and become financially secure BEFORE even considering having kids, buying fancy toys, an extravagent house, or expensive cars. After college, we worked, saved, and lived within our means. That's definitely NOT the American way.

Fleck - I completely agree with you. I don't understand why more people don't ride for every day errands and such. I see more people walking than riding. I think one reason is because people are afraid to ride a bike on the roads. Whenever I talk to someone about this they can't believe I don't ride on the sidewalks. They are petrified of riding anywhere other than a bike trail.

Also, I've been trying to figure out a way to start riding with my kids to their school. Their school is about 3 miles away. I drive them since it would be too long to walk and public transportation is difficult in my area. I would love to have my older daughter ride her bike and have my younger one on the trailer bike behind me. But, I have to admit, I'm scared about taking them out on the roads. I have no problem riding myself, but I'm not sure a 5 year old should be riding along a big street in Toronto. Do I then take them on the sidewalks? Not sure that's allowed here, but I don't think that's a good answer either. So, while I try to figure these things out, we continue to use our car.

Dawn

The check is in the mail. Wishing one way or another will not change anything. All you can do is be prepared. Unfortunately, very, very few people are in the "prepared" category. I say "bring it on" because the sooner we go through it the better, in my eyes. Your views are very America-centric, and that's fine. But the planet is not America-centric and it's going to teach us that lesson very soon.

But you'll pay $50-150 or more to do an hour race??

"but $3/gal gas and $4/loaf of bread is not the way to do it. "

well, Europe can do it. Australia/NZ can do it. Why can't the US do it?

And by the way for the vast majority of people in this country, we will have to wait a while before 'belly buttons rub backbones'

I agree with you that it's more complex than I had sketched it out:

- Indeed, many are terrified of riding a bike on a road. That's why many mistakenly buy SUV's because they "feel" safer.

- For 50+ years we have laid out our communities with the almost total assumption that every person over the age of 16 WILL have a car. So, of course nothing is easily reached or accessable on foot or by bike.

- Schools: I don't know what the bus limits were when I was growing up, but walking a 2 - 3k to school was not uncommon. Now I understand the threshold is 1K and kids can be bussed. This ingrains in kids at a very early age that they "NEED" to be driven everywhere. I could not find a house in the exact neigbourhood for my sons school, he can get the bus, but I drive him part way, and then we walk the last little bit completely avoiding the kiss-n-cry, chaos and bus traffic near the school. Eventually he should be able to ride his bike, when the weather is good.

- Transit: Go back to my second point. I could take the bus to work if I wanted - it's only about 10K, but I essentially can't get there by transit from my house. So I bike when I can, and do take the car when I have outside calls/lunches with clients.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog