Just a very minor contribution to the thread:

I know Terry, and trained with him a couple of years ago when he came through Germany to visit his nephew and do a couple of swim clinics.

We didn't swim anything longer than 100m (50LCM), but we swam a LOT of them. His thing was to hold a time per 100m whilst holding a set SPL. His slightly-more-advanced training philosophy, for people that aren't beginners/BOP triathletes, seems to be based around increasing speed at a set SPL.

It was bloody hard work, enjoyable. He's a fit bugger.

I would just like to say that I am not a particularly good swimmer by any standards (7.12/500m) but I found TI helped me a lot, in terms of body position, catch etc. Would I have have got to a similar standard with another coach, or by joining a Masters group? Maybe.

---

-------------------------------
´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX

 I actually walked on as a junior In college. I was a triathlete and actually a diver.. I could swim, but had never been in a team..
When I started swimming swimmer sets, I got faster, even though I was competing for AG wins most weekends as a junior.


As to why you aren't last, likely, you have some natural talent. I know every slowtwitcher prides themselves on having zero talent and can attribute 100% of their accomplishments on hard work, but it's likely not true.

You are tall with long arms. A ship moving through water is limited by the length of the hull... You have a longer hull and can go faster. Appropriate of being in a TI thread, but much of what Terry thought was about how to maintain the longest narrowest form in the water

I see what you're saying, but both running a biking are effected much less by technique than is swimming. I know many non-athletic folks that are simply faster than me in the water due to form. I think more people suffer from poor technique than lack of fitness in the pool.

---

Human Person

I have a bunch of buddies that link up for a Master's swim at 0530 each morning, but I've never been too motivated to join them. It's really convenient for me to swim in the early evening immed after work. I'd really have to be desperate to instead get up at 0445 to get to be in the pool at 0530. Viewed from the outside, serious triathletes seem to have infinite discipline to train. But when I look in the mirror I perceive my discipline to be a pretty fragile reed.

Coaching. If the Masters swim program was my only access to a coach I liked, I'd do it. But they don't. That said, I'm on the cusp of linking up with some local coaches, one of them is a 50m freestyle world champion, so that's coming together.

Re. learning to swim in slow motion vs. learning to run and ride. I see them as very different. To me, learning to swim is like learning ballet in that it's terribly difficult to learn good technique. One must practice under the careful eye of a master for years to learn good technique. This in contrast to my children making huge improvements in a single session.

No one taught me to run or ride. Yet in the 80's I ran and cycled in the Big10 and PAC10. I was never one of the fastest on the team, but I was fast enough to be useful. I started doing triathlons in '85 and my swimming sucked for decades, DECADES!. I had no idea that I didn't know how to swim. Some people, like our kids, figure out workable technique quickly, but I'm pathetic. So in order to fix a problem I have to go at "forever" pace so I can carefully concentrate on fixing the problem.

There's talk in this thread re. "in order to do a 24min 1500, you don't need to be fit. You just need good technique". I marvel at that. I can jump into a 5km road race and with a 19flat likely crush any other 55-59yr old in my group. But I swim as much as my shoulders will tolerate, 7500m/wk, and I can't hit the 24min "line of derision".

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

One of the big issues is that as guys get older, and you are older, sorry :-( we lose a lot of the flexibility that good technique requires. It is a lot like ballet, in that you NEED that flexibility. Kids have it. adults don't, unless they developed it as kids. If you never had it to begin with, then you probably won't develop it. I'm not saying you can't, because I don't know, but the flexibillity is hard to develop. Maybe work in some yoga sessions? just guessing.

I'm a little younger than you, but I can sleep my way to a 24 min 1500 in the pool. but that's because I have pretty good flexibility and body position. I have some horrible stroke flaws, but the basics are pretty good.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yes, technique is not super essential in running, you are right about that.
Why?
Well, humans have been running for likely a couple million years (maybe longer), so our evolution has made it so that proper running technique is hard-wired into our bodies and brains. All you have to do is run, and run more, and your body will naturally select the best and most efficient technique for you.

However, technique IS actually essential in both swimming and cycling.

It is just that in cycling, it is not so much movement technique, it is more the technique of proper equipment choice, proper wheel/tire/tube choice, proper equipment set up, proper fit, and a highly aero body position. Those are all very important if you want ride at the pointy end of the spear.

And, then, since we are not inherently evolved to swim, movement technique is critical to swimming. Swimming movement patterns must be learned and then highly refined if you hope to swim fast, irrelevant of how fit you are. If you're very fit, but your technique sucks, you will still swim slow. (That said, if your technique is great, you still need great fitness on top of that to swim at the pointy end of the spear.)

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re. flexibility. I hear you, and I accept that older folks won't have the flexibility of youngsters. It also doesn't help that I've been somewhat of a weight lifter since college. But if I'm shown what I need to work on, I'm pretty disciplined about working on it. My ankles are a lot more flexible now then they were a year ago because I work on them every day.

In a brief conversation at the pool the other week I had a coach tell me that my right shoulder is not as flexible as my left, but I can't convert that comment into clear guidance as to what exactly to work on. I looked up some swimming stretches and they all seemed pretty generic and things that (I perceive) I can do just fine. I figure that this is an area that a coach would have to show me what the problem is, and what I need to do to fix it.

Re. sleeping your way to a 24min 1500. That is just amazing to me. I shake my head with wonder.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.

Jason - what are the swim motions in freestyle that us less flexible folks are really limited in? I'd like to work on my arm flexibility for freestyle, but I want it to be freestyle-specific and effective.

I used to feel that my lack of a good EVF was mainly because of poor shoulder/elbow flexibility (which def may be true to a significant degree!) but I recently improved it a lot by entering and pulling a LOT wider - I was making the typical rookie error of keeping the entry too close to midline, which makes an EVF near-impossible. I videod myself in both the pool and on my Vasa with the much wider arm entry and the EVF motion was significantly better, and not requiring a real amount of flexibility so far, so I probably still have some technique-related fruit to pick off.

Taking the flexibility issue even further: the years of swimming done by life-long swimmers creates the flexibility that is specific for swimming. The ability to press the shoulders against the ears with straight arms overhead joined at the hands is from the constant freestyle stroke and coaches hounding swimmers to STREAMLINE. The ankle flexibility is from years of kicking, either as part of the stroke, or in kick sets. This is part of the major struggle for Adult-Onset Swimmers: they don't have this hard-earned, swim-specific flexibility (in freestyle for OWS), coupled with not having created the stroke-pattern and stroke-teq motor units ("muscle memory") over the years. Additionally, kids have more plastic motor units while they learn swimming. After yeas of training, they can spend more time in neural and metabolic training while they swim, because they aren't thinking so much about their strokes. It's not that AOS will never get these skills, but they should be realistic that these skills will be harder to come by.

Personal illustrations: I'm a life-long swimmer, a distance freestyler. I have great shoulder range-of-motion (ROM) flexibility. I have slightly more in my left side upper back than right side, because I breathe 90% on the right side. I also have typical swimmer ankles. When I started running seriously, I had to muscle my legs through the motion, because I didn't have the tightness and elasticity in my ankles from years of running. Eventually, the ankles got much tighter, and I got much better at running. But, when I returned to swimming, my kick was much worse than it had been, because the ROM wasn't there in my ankles.

I've coached some pretty strong triathletes in masters swimming, including some KQ's. They come to swimming from running or cycling. One guy in particular really struggled with his swim, but was pretty strong in B & R (he has a 2:2x best in his heyday). One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).

Shoulder mobility in general. A lot of guys can't easily put their elbows behind the head, or extend the scapula. That's what gets a GOOD streamline, and a good streamline is key. More than power. streamline streamline streamline.

While there is a lot of talk of EVF, it isn't necessary for a decent swim. Just don't lead the pull with your elbow, and that gets you most of the way there.

ETA - just read what 140triguy has to say.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

 been, because the ROM wasn't there in my ankles.

I've coached some pretty strong triathletes in masters swimming, including some KQ's. They come to swimming from running or cycling. One guy in particular really struggled with his swim, but was pretty strong in B & R (he has a 2:2x best in his heyday). One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).[/quote]This is interesting. What size fins?

---

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

I'm still trying to picture where/how a mobile shoulder helps a lot for freestyle thought, that's my question, since if EVF doesn't necessarily require big shoulder mobility, what propulsive or drag-reducing factors through mobility help in freestyle?

I mean, most men <55 can easily streamline their arm against their ear in extension.

The main area I see shoulder flexibility helping a lot is the high-elbow recovery phase, but that component should pale in component to a strong EVF pull.

the mobility in the shoulder gets you more ROM, more DPS, and more effective use of large muscle groups in your back, as well as presenting a narrower profile to the water.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

You got the genetics, have you thanked your parents?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Since I am an adult onset swimmer, ...

When I was swimming masters 5 days a week, yep, I was faster.

I used to swim 24, I now swim 26.

I just do not want to be a slave to numbers. Plus since I go right from the swim to the bike trainer, got to have some energy left.

At my age of 60, the trick competing is NO longer speed, it is just getting to the starting line healthy.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

yes real resistance in water only starts taking effect at a certain speed once you get to that critical speed working hard comes into effect but up until that point it should be technique all the way..


The main issue is that there are not many coaches who can actually tell you how to fix your flaws, TI doesnt do that either its a cookie cutter approach which from my experience didnt work for me

Regular sized fins, not the short zoomer style. Not SCUBA fins, though.

Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

A strong swim seemed to work out OK for the front 2 guys at 70.3 worlds. (yes I know gomez dropped back on the bike, but the strong swim really set up Kanute for a strong bike out of sight of the chasers.)

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

My point was broadly about diminishing returns. Once someone is coming out of the water within a minute of the leader, an extra hour of training per week on the bike/run will generally net you more time than an extra hour in the pool.

"The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second."

GP - Where did you hear or read this??? The Race Club??? This is new info to me.

Cheers,

Eric

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've been reading these. Interesting that they came from my own school. Can someone explain this one to me pls? http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

It says that as folks start swimming faster "catch up" style disappears and most everyone transitions to an "overlap" style. But when I chased after the distinction between those two, I found that Google seem to perceive them as pretty much synonymous.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Catch-up has a pause between the end of one pull and starting the next. Overlap, the pull starts before the opposite arm is finished.

in here --> http://www.swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2690


"Might be the wrong terminology.
It's kinda referenced in the van Hazel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs
When I say overlap I mean when the "time between strokes (sec)" as seen in that video goes negative, you can see this when Jon switches to his ultimate form at about 2:30."

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I've seen it multiple places. Most prominently I recall hearing it from Alexander Popov's coach in a YouTube video. The notion is probably derived from this: http://www.boats.com/...length/#.WcALbtN97zI


My rudimentary understanding is that to go faster than this you have to outrun your bow wake which is kind of like breaking the sound barrier: it can be done but the power needed rises rapidly.