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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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"By entering the hand close to the head and extending it under water...".I like that description solarberg,because that is the first step to TI,IMO.I can see why you would say it is more tiring,because it is pushing against the water instead of pulling.But I think it is more then offset by three factors.#1As you push forward you are throwing your arm,shoulder,hip and leg in one smooth motion that has incredible power(watch a great boxer,like Suger Ray Leonard,that's how he punches).#2 As you throw your whole body into the stroke you turn your shoulders to 90 DEGREES,in other words,perpendictular to the bottom of the pool and then you glide.As you are gliding you are in are FAR AND AWAY more aero postion then most"catch and pull" theories state(often 30 degrees).Since water is 100's of time thicker then air,aero postioning has a FAR GREATER effect in water then it does it does in air.#3As you finish your glide,you pull STRAIGHT DOWN ,not off the the side as many catch and pull theories state and NO s-curve IMO.
In my opinion many people find this technique slow for 2 reasons.#1Most people(including me,lol)cannot understand what Terry is REALLY saying!The above is MY interpretation and Terry might say I am totally wrong.If he does I hope he gets on here and explains himself,lol.It took me a long time to develope the above theory and would love to hear what others say about it.#2 The whole key to this techniqe is PERFECT timing.Your"push,turn and glide"have to be SPOT ON or you sink.You have to practice A LOT to get it.Then you have to speed it up.Swinging your arms faster like catch and pull does not work.Most people never even get past step 1.
Anyhow love to hear what people have to say.I stumbled on this thread by Googling"Total Immersion Debate".This is the first site that came up.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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As a matter of fact, water is not 100 times thicker but approximately 815 times thicker than air.

It is true that you have a lot of power by throwing yourself but you need all this power because you are swimming against the water: you are basically hitting a wall every time you extend your arms and body against that water. TI is alleging that by doing so you are piercing the water but why would you do that if you can find a way to go above the water during that phase (instead of under the water) ? If you look at competitive swimmers, you will notice how their upper body stays high on the water (so that the volume of their body immersed is the least possible). Watch for instance James Magnussen swimming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMqw31SrtCs) and see how his head and upper body stay very high. He is definetively not "totally immersed" ;)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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Should I swim as hard in the IM as those guys do for a 100m race?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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solarberg wrote:
As a matter of fact, water is not 100 times thicker but approximately 815 times thicker than air.

It is true that you have a lot of power by throwing yourself but you need all this power because you are swimming against the water: you are basically hitting a wall every time you extend your arms and body against that water. TI is alleging that by doing so you are piercing the water but why would you do that if you can find a way to go above the water during that phase (instead of under the water) ? If you look at competitive swimmers, you will notice how their upper body stays high on the water (so that the volume of their body immersed is the least possible). Watch for instance James Magnussen swimming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMqw31SrtCs) and see how his head and upper body stay very high. He is definetively not "totally immersed" ;)

----

Comparing beginner or weaker swimmer to the worlds best freestylers is never the best way to go and is a mistake that happens here all the time.Yes it would be great if all swimmers had the style,strength and engine that Magnussen and his mates have but the reality is that very few triathletes do.

Same goes for biking and running.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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In some ways Sun Yang would be a better example. The TI guys rave about Yang, and rightly so, he´s an incredible swimmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uqZd8Tn3Y

He´s pretty low in the water, certainly compared to the excellent clip of Magnussen.

Back to TI. It seems to me, as a strong swimmer who benefited from reading the TI book, that there is a real risk with the TI stroke that is not addressed. When swimming longer distances it´s OK to glide - look at Yang, how low his stroke rate is compared to Cochrane - but the risk is for us mere mortals that you ´overglide´ and stall.
Hope that makes sense.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Looks a bit "totally immersed" to me........
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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As a matter of fact I stated water is 100'S(with an S)of times thicker then air not just one hundred,but no big deal,lol.The interesting thing about those two videos, Magnussen and Yang is the stroke count.I counted about 37 strokes for Magnussen per length and 29 strokes per length for Yang(could be wrong,hard to see those videos well).The point is that Yang is WAY MORE EFFICIENT!They are both fast,both win and both great swimmers.People can win with both styles.But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.It is a lot like aero bars,Lance could beat the vast majority of Triathletes using drop bars but he uses aero bars because it too is more efficient.Great feedback!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing Sun Yang's stroke count during a 1500 lcm race versus Magnussen's stroke count during a 100 sprint count does not really inform us about their efficiency in my opinion. One is racing for almost 15 minutes and the other is racing for less than a minute. David K
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The point is that Yang is WAY MORE EFFICIENT!

How do you know this? You need to be pretty efficient to swim 100m in 47.10 LCM.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh

+1

I went swimming once with a 25 year old girl that hadn't swam since highschool swim team days and she was beating me in every set we did.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.

The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.


The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.

....and don't forget that if you are 5'3" and trying to emulate Sun Yang's form with Albatross size wingspan with a T rex wingspan, you'll go no where really slowly....and your legs will be cooked for the run.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.


The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You DON'T have to be efficient to do 100m in 47.1 you have to be FAST!Efficiency and speed are not the same thing.Yang is EFFICIENT because he did 1500m in under 900 STROKES(he was also fast!).If you extrapulated Magnussens stroke count for 100m to 1500 meter he would be doing around 1100 strokes,about 200 more strokes.That is a LOT less efficient.Many might say that is not a fair extrapulation,but my point is if Magnussen wanted to dramatically reduce his stroke count he would have to change his technique from"catch and pull" to Total Immersion,lol.Of course he can keep is stroke count high but that takes energy and would slow him down in the longer distance.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Ummm, yes you do. If you are wasting energy (i.e. inefficient) then you will NOT be able to swim that fast. Speed and efficiency are linked. You say Yang was fast, and he was, but Magnussnen was swimming around 11 secs per 100 faster than Yang. That is an enormous difference.

Many might say that is not a fair extrapulation

Because it isn't. You and I don't know what Magnussen's stroke count would be if he swam a 1500, just like we don't know what Sun Yang's stroke count would be in a 50 or 100. Strokes do change because the power requirement changes, but to say that categorically Sun Yang's stroke is way more efficient than Magnussen's is incorrect. You cannot say that just by comparing stroke counts.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 14, 12 15:22
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DieTryin'] [ In reply to ]
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DieTryin' wrote:
Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.

An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existant kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You are right I don't know what there respective stroke count would be if they switched distances.I admit I am ASSUMING,lol, that Magnussen would either have to reduce his stroke count on the longer distance OR keep up the high stroke count and get tired and slow down.IF he wants to make a major stroke reduction he has to use Total Immersion,IMO.If he keeps the high stroke count Yang would win because he has more energy left for the last lap.That is a LOT of assumtions I admit,but that is how people plan their racing strategy,even more so in triathlons then just swimming events.For long events like Ironman Yang would have an even bigger advantage,just based on less energy usage.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DieTryin'] [ In reply to ]
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For the first 1400 of that swim, Sun Yang's kick was "relatively" tame compared to what he is capable of. that said, like Fla Jill alluded to, he can probably kick 1:20's LCM with that lazy version of the kick, and if you watch his kick for the last 100 that is probably good for under a minute.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you assuming that having a lower stroke count is more efficient? That is a huge assumption.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).

I think what you are missing with your explanation is how speed is non-linear with power in the water.

Let's put this in terms of a cycling analogy. Suppose we have person A who does 20mph at 200 watts
and person B who does 30mph at 301 watts. Who is more "efficient"? Based on the equivalent of your
swim math, you would say person A by a thin margin (20/200>30/301), but that would be way off.
Person B would have to be super efficient with a crazy low CdA to go that speed, person A does not
have to be particularly efficient to achieve their speed.

The other responders are pointing out that going as fast as Magnussen in a 50, even with 37 strokes may
well be more efficient than Sun at 29 strokes if you were to normalize for their speed. I don't think it is
clear that we have the data to tell and certainly the stroke count alone is not sufficient.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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There is a woman (girl) who swam at my Y when she was on school break. She was about six foot eighty inches and very muscular - I heard she swam for Michigan. Anyways, she would do this dolphin back kick thing, take one single breath per 25yd, flip and do it again x1500yd. She hardly moved her body at all. AND while doing it she was faster than the Masters swimmers who were doing Freestyle.

Simply amazing to watch.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Again, what is your basis for this assumption? Opinions don't count when it comes to the laws of physics. If we make the ASSUMPTION that both swimmers are equal size, shape and weight (which isn't true, but lets pretend it is), then by definition the 2 swimmers net power output, after any inefficiencies, must be the same for equal swimming speeds. Assuming equal efficiency, a lower stroke count means that the swimmer has to exert a greater force per stroke than the swimmer with the higher stroke count, but the total net power output is the same. We simply do not know how efficient each swimmer is in reality without testing them.

Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort"
No it isn't, at least not in this context.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 15, 12 13:08
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
There is a woman (girl) who swam at my Y when she was on school break. She was about six foot eighty inches and very muscular - I heard she swam for Michigan. Anyways, she would do this dolphin back kick thing, take one single breath per 25yd, flip and do it again x1500yd. She hardly moved her body at all. AND while doing it she was faster than the Masters swimmers who were doing Freestyle.

Simply amazing to watch.

Chip, I have only seen a few do this over the years, but it is just amazing how fast and smooth they are. To go back and have learned to swim as a kid. Now, I did that for my kids starting as soon as I could get them in the pool,
and now going to do the same with my granddaughters.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what would happen to Yang's time in the 1500 if he sped up his stroke count a couple strokes....


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