I have done IM 70.3 St. George 4 times and I have never seen a warm-up area offered at the race. The race is one of my favorites but this has always baffled me. It is a bit difficult logistically to offer a warm-up area because the access to the water is limited from the transition area. However, I agree that it should be offered even if it is logistically difficult. I think the warm up area could be set up next to the swim exit area. It would be crowded for sure but I think it is critical when the swim is so freaking cold.

Of the IM events I have done I would say that IM 70.3 Boulder has the best swim warm-up set up. It is a bit crowded but it is very accessible and went a long way to me starting my day well when I raced there. And that's a warm race! I think it is critical to have a warm up area on cold swims. Every time I have raced St. George I have had a bit of a panic episode. I have come to expect it and I know how to work my way through it but I can see how somebody could be severely affected by being thrown into that cold water with $1,500+ other people.

Now, would a proper warm up have prevented this death? It's impossible to tell but anything, that is reasonable to do, that can reduce anxiety should be pursued. I would also relax the wetsuit rules for warm water. For some people the anxiety of swimming without a wetsuit is wayyyy more detrimental than any overheating from swimming with a wetsuit in warm water. With the prevalence of neoprene shorts you could even make those legal under any temperature for amateur athletes. Just make the wetsuit (or neoprene shorts) the norm for the amateur races! Good/competitive swimmers will still have their competitive advantage and a huge number of people will feel safe while racing.

If you want to grow the sport then USAT and IM should do all they can so that participants are not seriously asking the question "could I die at this race today?" every time they get in the water. People don't ask themselves that question when road racing and trail running and even in cycling events (which are probably more dangerous) people don't think that way. All reasonable measures should be taken to make the amateur feel as safe as possible in the swim. Things as simple as warm-up areas and 5mm of neoprene under any circumstances would go a long way to achieve this.

---

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Swim warm-up is not a hard stop for me, but it probably should be.

I am prone to swim panic. I thought I was over it, but I did a race last weekend with warm-up. It was my first open water swim in a long time. I felt the panic coming during my warm-up, and I extended my warm up a bit until I felt comfortable. The swim was a non-event because of that.

In a no warm-up races (which I have not had since 2018), I will swim wide of the pack to be as alone as possible until I feel comfortable.

I agree with pushing warm-up hard. But then my selfish side would not want to see a race go away because of that as a hard requirement.

The point is this is an experiment. We are the sample. We are the data.

The warmup as presently conceived seems not too helpful in my mind. I get in the water and warmup and then I have to get in line and cool off. By the time I start the swim I am not warmed up.

I think unless you are at the pointy end of the spear taking a few minutes to swim relaxed at the beginning of the swim is very beneficial. You can swim wide warm up a bit and then enter the fray. Sooner or later somebody from a later wave comes by that one can draft on. Swimming relaxed for the first five minutes or so at most might result in being 1 min slower at most I would think. You can screw up your race during the swim but are unlikely to win there. I am in my mid fifties and usually swim 35 min for half and 1:08 for a full.

Not to you in particular but is there a way of having people swim a few hundred metres and then cross a timing cable of some sort that triggers the start of actual racing?

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

This is a super cool idea. It is like a flying start and could incorporate a no-impact warm-up in races with limited logistics.

(I can imagine objections from people who believe that they only have fitness for exactly 1.2 or 2.4 miles, but this seems great on the surface.)

Truly terrible to die doing a recreational activity; my heart goes out to his family.

I'm a terrible open-water swimmer (I can go all day in the pool, but put me in open water and I'm done in seconds: panic attacks, flailing like an idiot, etc.) so I stick with duathlon...that's where I started in 2011, and that's where I'll stay. Thus, I stay out of the water and eliminate that risk to myself or others around me. I'm in no way saying that this athlete was a bad swimmer (most likely the opposite, given the even they were participating in), but without a warm-up, even the best swimmers are at the mercy of the elements.

That all being said, I would like to see a swim warm-up be mandatory; there is a large amount of data available citing the risks of high-intensity cold-water swimming exertion without a warm-up. Our RDs need to try and mitigate risk as best they can, and giving athletes a chance to warm-up and perform at their best seems like an easy win for everyone.

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

St Croix had this with a race start on an island 200m away form the swim exit. But it would be easy, by making people swim a 200m loop to the swim start line up. It is just a matter of course design if the race is not jumping of a dock or boat.

When IM St.George 70.3 was first held in 2013 (I believe they also did it in 2014) the swim start was a deep water start. It was still done in waves but you had about 5 mins or so to get to the start buoys and when the time was up a guy in a kayak would send you out. This was soo much better because you could basically slowly breaststroke to the start and then swim in place until it was time to go. Much better (psychologically) than "beep", get in, freeze your balls off, and panic.

---

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

at IMAZ in 2019 I was amazed at how many people basically made their own swim acclamation area. The swim started by getting in the water and making an almost immediate right turn, I saw multiple people in front of me get in the water, go straight, swim 5-10 strokes, then pop up and stand up again. I am guessing this was to get used to the water temp. I think it is a really smart idea if you are not used to cold water, but also disappointing they had to use part of their race time to do so.

ummm, in your experiment the only sample is the swimmer who didn't survive.

What do the really COLD races (Patagonman XTL, Norseman, etc.) do? From the videos I've seen (I'll never participate in one), it doesn't look like there's a warm up. It looks like - jump off the boat, blow the horn as soon as everyone is in the water, now swim.

---

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

St George this year had an archway midway through the swim that captured our split from our ankle chip. They could have a similar deal for the start of the swim a little ways from the boat ramp.

Yeah, but that's why they are Xtreme. Horrendously cold water, crazy weather and elevation on both the bike and the run. These races attract a very different crowd that understands it could be a dangerous event.

---

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Yes, yes, but I was just mentioning them tongue-in-cheek.

However, I would argue that most of the Tri crowd understands that it could be dangerous. I know I understand that throughout training and the event I could have a cardiac event, cycle crash or an unforeseen danger that would do more than just end my training/event.

But I guess we're getting off subject.

It's always sad and a loss to many people when someone dies in any sporting event. My condolences to the family.

---

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

I think this could be a great idea, if they can create a little bit of a bottleneck at the start 200m out. Like send 5 people at a time swimming out to that start 5 or 6 minutes before they will be allowed through the arch. That way they have to go slow, or tread water for a bit before they are allowed to start racing. Otherwise, people will just start their race 200m early.

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Point is pretty simple. He stated it would be interesting to see how recently they were vaccinated as it may have had an impact on that individual. I know a few people who have had terrible reactions (upper body, racing heart etc.) to their 2nd shot.

As far as I am aware, there are not any warnings for people to limit exercise or activity after a shot. It MAY impact some.

In 2019, I was doing a local triathlon where a gentleman had a cardiac event about 5 or 10 steps in front of me. He put his hands on his knees as he leaned up against a guard rail on the side of the road. It was the 'out' portion of an out and back. About 10 minutes later, I saw him on the back portion. A teammate of mine was assisting him to the aid station.
He died...
I was the 1st person that might have been able to have a clue that he was having a heart condition, and I didn't notice.
I could've stopped.
I could've notified that aid station that was only a couple hundred yards in front of me and let them know someone was in need.
I simply didn't notice that he stopped for that reason.
I drive by that spot almost daily as it was about 1 1/2 miles from my home.
Tough to know that there was something I could have done to give him a better chance and give him aid couple minutes earlier.

right. but as i said, if you had 2,000 people who were recently vaccinated and did the race with no bad affects, and 2 who were recently vaccinated and had a bad effect, what did you learn? none of the 7 deaths in an IM during 2019 recently had the covid vaccine. so, i don't see what you learn. you guys are smarter than me. i'm just asking.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree - forensics of all endurance sport-related deaths have been interesting to me. (marathon, swim, etc). And I'm sure those forensics will be done with this guy. But immediately jumping to "vaccine," I'm not sure is warranted.

This is an aside, from all my informal scanning of the forensics over the decades, we never really get an overall satisfying answer. The causes are myriad. Some had congenital issues they never knew about it. Some had undiagnosed disease. Some had diagnosed disease and knew they were taking a risk. Some are great swimmers. Some are questionable swimmers. Some bizarrely appear like healthy good swimmers who maybe just had a panic attack - maybe just accidentally getting one mouthful of water down a lung is enough to send someone into a bad state of mind.

That’s what was so concerning in the past studies of cardiac events during the swim, the lack of any defining factors of the individuals involved. The data sort of slanted to older males, but experience or lack of didn’t appear to be a factor. What did come out of the studies was the recommendation for a swim warm up.

So imagine you’re sitting in the jury of a wrongful death suit against IM. You hear evidence presented that previous studies and panels (swim safe) recommend a warm up swim. You hear that many triathlons offer them. You hear that COVID protocols may have prevented a warm up, but you also hear of the lack of protocols. You are also told that relief stations were set up in case anyone needed to stop and rest during the swim (from Triathlete magazine post). You hear there was an area available for a warm up. Finally you hear that the professionals were allowed a swim warm up but not age groups.

Why can’t a warm up swim be offered...because it’s inconvenient, that seems like the only reason offered.

Not lazy. Just brings it back to reality.

Want something else ? Approx 13,000 gunshot deaths in the USA each year (based on 2019 figures). And that's perfectly acceptable rate to half the nation at least it seems.

I'm not immediately jumping to the vaccine and I don't feel the original post to which Dan responded to was either. All I'm saying is that it COULD have been a possibility to consider. That's it.

It shouldn't be brushed aside. It should be considered a possibility. And yes, there are many other possible factors that we don't or won't know about. I just felt like Dan's attitude was a bit off-putting. I feel he often displays a prideful attitude that shows he thinks he's better than others.

Someone died. Tragically. Someone isn't going home who came to race. Someone likely lost a dad, husband, brother etc. A poster made a statement about a possible reason to consider and he wasn't smart enough ( my perception of Dan's response).

That's all.

Back when Arizona was a mass start, you had the opportunity for a nice warm up swim to the start line. By going to the 'safer' swim start they've lost the opportunity of the warm up.

In the only race I've done where I couldn't warm up, I did this very thing. I started off to the side and did a mini warm up as everyone else was headed forward. I'm a fairly slow swimmer (and competitor in general), so I didn't really care about the minute or so I lost getting acclimated to the water.

the post asked that question in post-49. i answered it in post-50. those interested can go back and see if i was off-putting or prideful and better than the person to whom i responded. then you jumped in, which is fine. but, again, neither you nor the person raising the question would provide an answer: what are we to learn, if he did?

i regret that you saw my post as off-putting, but i find off-putting the use of a death as a convenient political lever. i'm confident that wasn't your intention. but i can easily see this as the very sort of ideological hammer unfairly used to thwart the attempts of people of goodwill to overcome this pandemic. accordingly, i asked how one would go about establishing that nexus, and i guess i'm not going to get an answer.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman