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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks

http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.

People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"I would hardly put a 3:30 in the suck category."

I totally agree with you that 3:30 is not a bad time for someone who thinks 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. With that, you are on your own since you seem determined to miss the point no matter how many people try and explain it to you.

I don't think 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. I think 16 straight weeks of 50 miles is too much mileage for a triathlete.

I still say targeted balance beats that plan for the HIM/IM athlete. More predictable, and most importantly, less risk of injury.

For some reason I don't know a single HIM or IM athlete that does that kind of running plan. I would guess because very few can physically withstand running 7-8 hours a week for 16 straight weeks and get in the bike and swim time and not physically break down. Dump the bike to make the time? I also don't buy you lose little bike endurance if you drop it for 1-2 months, do this plan, then have the race of a lifetime. For a sprint or Olympic, sure. Yippe for the dude who does well at the local sprint against soccer moms on the 12 mile bike route. Not a HIM or IM.

I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers.

I would argue that you build by targeted balance season after season, focused cycles on each sport as well, but not extreme single sport focus.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.


People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?

So you don't listen to most coaches? Since most coaches don't have results at what they are good at doing. Being a good athlete isn't a prerequisite to knowing what to do to make people be good athletes. My point in my post which obviously went completely over head given your question is, taking your results and saying people should do X because you think X is the optimum thing for you is worthless. Because its a case study, case studies are good if the number of cases are low. However in running the number of cases aren't low. Running more will in the majority of cases make you a better runner up to a point, a lot of those improvements happen on the way to 50mpw. You saying that you can do X miles per week and run at X speed ignoring all other variables that contribute to that race time is a worthless statement. Which is why asking what my results are is also a worthless question. Each result is based on a bunch of variables that are individualized personally for my situation. Whats not individualized is if you take 500 runners who avg 20 mpw, test their race times then have them work their way up to 50 mpw then retest them, there will be a statistically significant increase in their race times. You may have outliers that didn't achieve much or achieved more than they should have, that doesn't mean you use the outliers for advice that you would give on a forum. Which is essentially what you are trying to do.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.

Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.


People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?


So you don't listen to most coaches? Since most coaches don't have results at what they are good at doing. Being a good athlete isn't a prerequisite to knowing what to do to make people be good athletes. My point in my post which obviously went completely over head given your question is, taking your results and saying people should do X because you think X is the optimum thing for you is worthless. Because its a case study, case studies are good if the number of cases are low. However in running the number of cases aren't low. Running more will in the majority of cases make you a better runner up to a point, a lot of those improvements happen on the way to 50mpw. You saying that you can do X miles per week and run at X speed ignoring all other variables that contribute to that race time is a worthless statement. Which is why asking what my results are is also a worthless question. Each result is based on a bunch of variables that are individualized personally for my situation. Whats not individualized is if you take 500 runners who avg 20 mpw, test their race times then have them work their way up to 50 mpw then retest them, there will be a statistically significant increase in their race times. You may have outliers that didn't achieve much or achieved more than they should have, that doesn't mean you use the outliers for advice that you would give on a forum. Which is essentially what you are trying to do.

I have never used a coach. Why would I need one? I can read. I can watch and talk to the top racers and see what they do. I can see what works for me.

And yes, I have a LOT more respect for folks who can walk their talk.

So again, show us your results to at least allow others to see if what you do produces results that others might want to follow. They can then compare your N-0 results and your training and age, to my N-0 results with my training and age. There is not one answer for getting faster on the run. For some, more mileage might work. But with all the folks I have talk to over the years, and many who used to be able to run much faster than most in ST, the ones who cannot run anymore all say the same thing to me, they wish they would not have run so many miles and worn their bodies out. If you can get to my age, and exceed my results, then we shall see.

I believe in supporting folks for long term involvement in this sport, not a short term focus. You would never want me as a coach with this attitude. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Well an open marathon at 3:30 would age grade you to top 40 percent or so, yet that's top 20 percent run at ironman. In other other words over 80 percent of the runners in an ironman are in the bottom 60 percent of age graded results for a marathon. I would say that's petty bad.

This is possibly the quote of the year in my opinion.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I don't think 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. I think 16 straight weeks of 50 miles is too much mileage for a triathlete.
I still say targeted balance beats that plan for the HIM/IM athlete. More predictable, and most importantly, less risk of injury.
For some reason I don't know a single HIM or IM athlete that does that kind of running plan.


You do understand he said to do this over the off-season right. What half ironman training or full iron training plan run 12 months?

3Aims wrote:
I also don't buy you lose little bike endurance if you drop it for 1-2 months, do this plan, then have the race of a lifetime. For a sprint or Olympic, sure. Yippe for the dude who does well at the local sprint against soccer moms on the 12 mile bike route. Not a HIM or IM.


You don't have to believe it but its true most people can be back full on in a month, if you put in a hard bike month they ran consistently for whole time. But your also comparing apples and oranges. Because you would never run 50 mpw and completely drop biking you can still ride 1-3 times a week easy and maintain your basic bike muscle fitness. But he's not off saying it only takes a month or two.

3Aims wrote:

I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers.


Yes, cause all you need to qualify for Kona is running 50mpw...


3Aims wrote:
I would argue that you build by targeted balance season after season, focused cycles on each sport as well, but not extreme single sport focus.


Once again this isn't a plan to do in the season, Its for the offseason, so when you get to the season you have bigger gains in that singles sport because you over stressed your system more than you could ever do on tri training for that specific sport. Your build for all three sports happens in the spring, not in october, hence why a single sport focus works. You'll be back to normal in those sports before you even hit your build phase.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
Last edited by: Grant.Reuter: May 17, 12 14:18
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.


Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.

Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers. But if you times and training are poor, what does that say?

If I want to be rich do I hang around and listen to poor folks. If I want to improve my racing to I talk with and follow opinions of BOP racers?

So, please show us your silly race results and training process. Since you clearly say you know how it works to maximize performance, please show us how it has worked for you with real numbers and results.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Once again you don't get my point, by asking for my results and what I do to achieve my results you are looking at a tree in the forest, specific to my situation and my athletic background which is completely different than most people. Brian is not talking about specifics which lead to specific results he's talking about a broad idea that will lead to improved results on the run for the majority of people who aren't running much right now. But I forgot debating with you is like debating with someone with earplugs in you never hear what the other person is saying.

You always bring this up which COMPLETELY disproves your point

"But with all the folks I have talk to over the years, and many who used to be able to run much faster than most in ST, the ones who cannot run anymore all say the same thing to me, they wish they would not have run so many miles and worn their bodies out."

So what you're saying is that they ran more miles and therefore were faster than most people on ST on the run. I'm just shocked that they ran more and were faster just shocked.

"If you can get to my age, and exceed my results, then we shall see. " Why would my results matter to anyone in my 50's besides me? This is such a silly comment. I don't care if I exceed your results when I'm in my 50's. My goal isn't to go just fast enough now so that I can run fast in my 50's. We get it you don't have a competitive attitude you want to have longevity in triathlons got it. That doesn't mean you're better than other people who would rather be faster now then try to impress people with their times at 55.

No I wouldn't want you as a coach because you don't understand basic physiology, that would be my main problem.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.


Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.


Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers. But if you times and training are poor, what does that say?

If I want to be rich do I hang around and listen to poor folks. If I want to improve my racing to I talk with and follow opinions of BOP racers?

So, please show us your silly race results and training process. Since you clearly say you know how it works to maximize performance, please show us how it has worked for you with real numbers and results.

Because Dave, what you seem to continually fail to grasp is my results are specific to me and not optimized because of my specific situation. Explaining how I got to certain race results would require me to not only go over my training but also go over my whole school schedule for the 4 years along with when each test and project were due. In addition I would have to explain my background in high school and college in different sports and how that relates to my training. Does that actually sound useful for your situation. hmmm no probably not given that you don't study 50+hours a week. Which is why its silly to explain my results, the same way its silly to give your results. However, the fact I don't have optimal results doesn't mean I don't know how to achieve optimal results, which is exactly my point when talking about coaches, which you failed to grasp, its not about their results its what they know so that they can explain how someone can achieve optimal results. You don't have to have results to be able to do that you have to experience and a large subset of people to draw that experience from and then be able to integrate it into a plan for a specific person. By not listening to coaches you are basically taking other peoples specific experiences and trying to mesh them in a plan that works for you. Its much more logical to take what is proven to work over a wide range of people and then integrate it into a specific plan that works for you.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, I found it for you.

http://mydisneymarathon.com/...rld/grantreuter30575

Grant Reuter age 27 13.1 half marathon (Not even a full)

1:56:33 Age Grading 51.18

Dave Campbell age 54 13.1 Urban cow

1:27:00 Age Grading 80.21

Yep, I do not understand basic physiology at all. :o) And on only 18 MPW running all 100% LSD

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: May 17, 12 14:35
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Okay, I found it for you.

http://mydisneymarathon.com/...rld/grantreuter30575

Grant Reuter age 27 13.1 half marathon (Not even a full)

1:56:33 Age Grading 51.18

Dave Campbell age 54 13.1 Urban cow

1:27:00 Age Grading 80.21

Yep, I do not understand basic physiology at all. :o) And on only 18 MPW running all 100% LSD

Oh Dave, I was so hoping you would post that SO SO SO SO SO hoping. You make it so easy to show that you are clueless. You want to talk about that race okay here we go.. I ran a total of I believe 30 miles in the 6 weeks before that race, probably with something to do with medical school I dunno its actually kinda busy. Hmm now what else could have contributed to that time... hmmm i'm not sure OH WAIT maybe it might have been this...

or maybe this.... or maybe one of the other 20 pictures of the course of the run.

Now I know it couldn't have also been because of this

http://athlinks.com/...&courseid=267715 which is the relay I did with one of my friends the next day for the marathon.... nooo couldn't be any of those variables nope nope nope.

Sorry Dave, this is why i'm not going to go through all my results, because frankly you just don't get it.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Its cool though Dave,

I can play the arbitrary race results game too

http://athlinks.com/...9/22642481/115780870

Dave Campbell- 1:32/100m, 19.45mph bike, 7:24/ mile run for a sprint.

http://athlinks.com/...65/45940845/96448040

Grant Reuter 1:15/100m, 24.63mph bike, 6:35/mile run for a sprint

That was fun!!

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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This thread is now officially out of control and there are only two people actively posting! ;) Nice pics from Disney, I like.

FWIW (and without seeing this thread) I started a build from a lifetime max of 25 mpw in November to 50 mpw in Jan/Feb/Mar this winter. Almost 90% LSD (and I am putting the S in LSD - started in Nov at almost 11:00+/mile).

In April I dropped 3:30 off my 5K PR (now high 23), 5:30 off my 10K PR (now 46 min) and 14 mins off my 1/2M PR (1:57 -> 1:43). None of those efforts were flat out (I hate it when people say that but compared to the near collapse at the line from the prior PRs I almost coasted in on these). The purpose of the run block was literally "become a durable runner" for a late summer IM this year. This is the first time I have been able to run consistently without incurring some ankle/achilles/calf/hamstring/glute injury and it's while running 200+ miles per month. The speed was almost a bonus.

I know that my times aren't ST fast, but they are n=1 in favour of this concept and I was excited to see the thread (resurface) and see Brian's take on it. Felt like I guessed right finally on something training related.

I am also wondering what volume I need to maintain these gains through the next 3.5 months as I focus on building up the swim/bike volume... dropping back to 35-40 mpw for now and I guess we'll see.

You guys can go back to kicking the shit out of each other now.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, Thanks! I love those races down there, I was only going to do the relay but it was the 15th anniversary this year and I said screw it cause the Donald medal was sweet. I'm actually going to maybe try to race the marathon next year so we'll see what happens.

It's not a matter of how fast you are it's how much of a difference it makes to run more and run longer (years wise), you're going to get faster and most likely those gains will stay with you. Which Dave seems to completely not understand even though he posted exactly that point based on the people who he talked to who are runners.

Keep working at it though! When I started doing tri's I came from a hockey background and was probably running your 11min pace too. Just a lot of work and some time and it will come down.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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When I'm not SBR I'm at the rink... gotta say the fitness gains from triathlon have made that way more fun lately. As everyone else gets slower with age I am getting faster again. Still have hands of stone though, thank goodness for the $200 sticks ;)

Triathletes should try having their bike slashed in half by some plug on a monthly basis - that would make for some interesting threads. I've also yet to see a throw down in a tri between two guys that have to go to work the next day/home to the wife and explain the black eye.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers

If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, I've been close a couple times to that going down hills or on turns where people think it would be appropriate to make a new line without look.

god, talk about something that is going though the roof is the price of hockey sticks. They have over doubled in like 6 years since I was playing. They are awful for kids too because there is so much rebound of them. We were discussing that at a camp I was helping coach at, the young kids cant catch passes partially because there's less give in the blades now.

Definitly miss it though. There's a few Cities I can go to for rotations my third year that. Have hockey rinks. I'd love to play again. Talk about a completely different workout. I mean I've been sore after tris, but at least my bones never feel like they are shattered.

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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It's amusing that the people who have posted on this thread that have ACTUALLY TRIED THIS PLAN are all posting about improvements. Everyone else is just scared of it.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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It's 4 months though 4! What if it doesn't work I'll be out four months of training, my friends will all leave me because my race times haven't improved. My gf will make fun of me, it will be the end of the world!

http://www.desotosport.com
Wife’s new business —> http://www.lnzcustomdesign.com
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers.

I'm faster than you, so you should do exactly what I do.

Good philosophy.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am also wondering what volume I need to maintain these gains through the next 3.5 months as I focus on building up the swim/bike volume... dropping back to 35-40 mpw for now and I guess we'll see.


I'd say that ~35mpw +/- a few is appropriate. You can maintain with 20-50% less depending upon which study you are reading.

Congrats on the huge time drops, that is exactly what this off-season challenge was about.

Ironically people say that the risk of injury goes up when people run more miles. I'd argue that the risk of injury is higher for someone running 2-3x per week then 6-8x per week. but that's a search function argument since it's been hashed out.

Ironically if someone were to do this for swimming or cycling they would see like results. (you can search user names gtingley or dave Luscan to see what happens when people do this for the bike, although I think Gary might have had it on a blog)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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