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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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Targeted inspections are much more reasonable although I still think that if a RD touches a bike they must return it in the same condition. As to "regional champs", at least here in Florida, that is just a name bestowed on some local races to potentially increase participation even though it doesn't mean squat. I want them inspecting, enforcing drafting rigorously, going after dopers, watching for course cutters, etc., at races with qualifying slots: IM, IM70.3, and USAT National Champs.
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect the real reason they don't conduct more physical inspections is liability if they damage anything and like you mentioned, putting people off entering if they feel their bike is going to be fiddled with by someone who may or may not be competent to do so.
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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InvictaScoop wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
I'm all for catching the cheats, but you are seriously suggesting that the RD pull athlete cranks and then hand the bike back with it off because everyone has the tools and knows exactly what to do. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!


Yes I am. If people don't like the entry criteria they are welcome not to enter the race.

They could put the components back in place, nip any bolts up loosely and put a tag on the handlebars to the effect of "your bike has been examined for eligibility and will require re-assembly/inspection prior to further use". Job done. They do it to our baggage at the airport,why shouldn't it happen to our bikes at a race?
That is the worst possible way to handle this. For a race to take apart bikes, not put them back together the way they found them, and instead hand unsafe bike back to the athletes who may or may not know about this, or may or may not know how to reassemble the bikes themselves?
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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You could probably even flick the tube and see if it sounds right or place a magnet against the tubes and see if it feels consistent. What the heck can an iPad with a pretty graph tell you?
Now my evil plans include racing on a steel frame bike with a hidden motor.
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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That is the worst possible way to handle this. For a race to take apart bikes, not put them back together the way they found them, and instead hand unsafe bike back to the athletes who may or may not know about this, or may or may not know how to reassemble the bikes themselves?


It's the best way if you want to catch cheaters and it's only 3 bolts typically. If you can't handle that you shouldn't be allowed to breed let alone race.

If people don't want this to happen then just accept there are no other proven ways of catching people. Using fancy cameras and iPad is just an illusion they are doing something.

Personally I don't think there is a big problem with motors, it's a fantasy. But we'll never know unless we really check.
Last edited by: InvictaScoop: Aug 1, 17 22:59
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
Now my evil plans include racing on a steel frame bike with a hidden motor.

But that wouldn't work. A hollow tube should 'ting' where as one with something solid in it would be more like a dull thud. With a motor in there it would feel a more powerful attraction to a magnet than areas which are just tube wall.

You can use a magnet and sound to identify body filler in vehicle bodywork if you have a tiny bit of experience. Same principle really. Not foolproof by any means but it's a start.
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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InvictaScoop wrote:

If it's done after the athlete enters T2 there is no concerns over putting the bike back together again in a rush and you aren't allowed to swap bikes on the course so no-one should be able to ride on their e-bike then jump on a clean bike. There isn't a need for pre-race scrutineering. Leave it down to the athlete to put the crank back on so can't say anything has been damaged or over-tightened. You'd still have a potential problem of some sort of rear wheel/hub system being swapped out on the course but I don't know how you'd ever negate that.

I used to work at an engine builders / race car builders. We were the approved workshop for eligibility testing for a couple of national championships. The chief scrutineer would observe us strip engines to ensure compliance to rules. Then we would reseal them with lock-wire and a unique seal number or there would be sanctions imposed if it didn't conform, photographs taken etc.

This seems to only be a problem for cycling/ triathlon. Other sports have been doing intrusive eligibility checks for years.

This would likely be a bad idea. Not to mention, that the intrusive option is only when the suspicion is strong. Currently they use the tablet based scanners to check and if they suspect a motor, then they would disassemble as necessary. The rule states that the athlete and their representative should be present when they do this, and the athlete themselves are asked to remove the seat post or crank... if they don't want to, then a mechanic will do it. They are currently doing this pre-race for elite events, but they could scan bikes after the T zone is closed, and flag numbers and do disassembly post race. That said, I'd rather they do all of this pre-race, that way the winner is the winner, and you're not robbing someone of the podium.

Similarly thermal cameras could be used on course, bib numbers noted for more thorough inspection post race...
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Re: Second Confirmed Hidden Motor Used in a Bike Race [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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There are countless threads on here about the rampant drafting problems in races. Every post race report includes stories of what amounts to peletons. But, we (can't / won't) (catch / enforce) drafting rules...which doesn't require a teardown or an IR camera to detect. But, you are suggesting that the sport has the appetite and desire to implement a teardown procedure to inspect for hidden motors and batteries at the regional racing level (whatever that is)?

Your motor racing example is a bit laughable. Motor racing is like doping in cycling, except that playing in the gray area is accepted practice and pushing into the downright black is *almost* necessary to win. I'm not even sure how the engine seals example is even relevant---regardless even those are easily defeated. Everyone knows how to reseal an engine/transmission/diff such that it passes tech.

If you've been involved in motor racing for any length of time, then you are keenly aware that for every "control" in place there are, at least, 2 (if not 10) methods for defeating it. If you tell me how or when you are going to inspect me (or my bike, or my racecar), I guarantee you that you will not find anything using those method, at those times. In the racecar, I'll have a GPS fence and a hidden switch that activates a capability at speed on the racetrack and not sitting still in tech.

Everyone comes up crazy ideas for how to "catch the cheater", but no one ever considers the implications of the idea. Who's going to implement it, how long will it take, how much will it cost.....does the customer (racing population) have the stomach for the inconvenience? Its easy to say, "its the price of entry...if you don't like it, stay away." On the other hand, what if 10, 25, 50% of the population do exactly that? is the remaining population able to support the sport? Are they willing to pay the rising entry fees due to escalating costs, and decreasing participation? We gripe about a $15 USAT 1 day fee. We gripe about active.com processing fees.

Back to motor racing. I own and drive a racecar (spec Miata) regionally. At the national races (SCCA majors, Runnoffs, NASA Championships) everyone is at risk of a teardown of any component on the car (engine, trans, diff, all of the above, etc). Every owner is expected (required) to perform this teardown upon request---it is the price of entry. They also pay double the entry fee for the privilege. But, national racers generally spend $5k+ for a weekend and have a full support crew on staff...whereas, I might spend $750 and do my own wrenching. However, none of this happens at the regional level. We (regional racers) know this, and expect that we will NOT be taking our cars home in pieces. If that changed, regional racing would dry up in a heart-beat---we are unwilling to tolerate the (risk of) intrusion, and expense of an engine rebuild every 6 weeks. Doing the work myself over nights and weekends, I might not even have it back together by the next race...and I have better things to do with my time.

Taking a crank off, or removing a seat tube is certainly not the same as an engine rebuild. But, if a frame gets broken in the process either during removal or re-install (and that WILL happen to someone---either by the volunteer mechanic or the owner ...doesn't matter who, the damage is done) THAT is equal to an engine rebuild. Once stories start circulating (true or false) "my bike was broken inspecting for a stupid motor cheat", a level of outrage will ensue, and enrollment WILL drop.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Aug 2, 17 8:32
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