ok seing though stuff is misleading, what I actually mean is the heat has to exit somehere so you will see it on the camera,

as this is thermal camera's iotis not light being reflected, it is the actual heat radiation from the object, in this case the motor.

in terms of where how they can be used, basically anywhere, it will probably be an issue to get an image of somone cycling past on a cheaper thermal cam, but if you were along side in a car it would be simple enough, certainly people coming into transition would be easy enough to check as you would not have ambient air cooling the frame so the heat being dumped from the core would show better.

that said the apps available for ipads etc that work of the compass would also be a fast easy check, prbably better than a themal cam for stationary checks, hell you could probably check reliably with one of those compases you get out of a christmas cracker,

I havent taken pic of a bike, but there are plenty on the net.

You misunderstand. It IS light.
Most of the thermal radiation emitted by objects in the temperature range we're talking about is emitted as infrared. Incidentally, light is radiation. Infrared radiation is just a name for light that has a wavelength in a range just above that visible to the typical human eye. i.e. IR is a colour of light we aren't able to see, but it IS light. These cameras detect infrared radiation in the same way as a normal camera detects light visibile to humans. There is nothing magical about them. They are just cameras that detect a different wavelength range and that display the image with a shift in wavelength so that we can see it.[/quote] So back to my original query. How can IR cameras be used to easily detect motors?
They are not much use unless the motor is in use or has recently been in use or the battery has recently been charged. So there is not an obvious way that they can be used in transition. You could try and use them out on the course but that would be a PITA to implement and you wouldn't be guaranteed to catch all offenders unless you did multiple checks throughout the bike leg for every competitor. You'd also need people checking the images during the race and inspecting suspect bikes by other means before they're taken from transition after the race for confirmation. Is this the proposal?
This was my query. I never said it couldn't be done. I queried the assertions that this was easy and cameras are cheap. There's a bit more to it than that!

How expensive are PEDs compared to $15,000 bikes? Not that expensive at all after all... of course I can't afford either, so I don't have to worry about that moral dilemma. The dentists on the other hand....

this I like.
The only problem is that your serial cheaters have the mentality of "it won't happen to me".

The rest of us don't cheat because we either believe in Fair competition, which I think is a minority, or, they're afraid of getting caught.

This is all much ado about nothing. He didn't have a motor and his recent jump to the podium is because he fixed some problems with his back:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...g-mechanical-doping/

So it's all just a misunderstanding. He couldn't submit his bike to a technical inspection because he had a wedding to go to. Makes total sense to me. /s

Although to be fair, after racing in the morning I wouldn't mind going to an Italian wedding in the afternoon/evening. Sounds like a good day.

A full drug screen for PEDs costs money and takes special personnel and a pretty serious commitment to a very specific sampling and testing protocol. That is why so few athletes get tested. And in many cases PEDs "work" by improving training and can thus still be beneficial even if not "used" on race day so you have to get into out of competition testing to be truly effective.

Looking for motors is several universes away from that. They must be present at the race to be of any use and it is infinitely easier and cheaper to "test." You are literally talking just a free, or nearly free, iPhone app that anyone can be trained to use in about 8 seconds and requires no certification, etc to be a "tester." Get as many people as you want scanning bikes at the start or finish and for the ones that register a "positive" your confirming test involves an allen wrench, pulling the seat post and taking a look. It takes way longer to do a junior gear rollout which gets done, on every junior at every bike race, than it does to test for a motor. You can test such a high percentage of the field that cheaters will be deterred (or caught) if the organizers care enough to "test." This is fundamentally different than human doping. Motors will never be a big problem.

The way these people double down with denials and excuses is what really irritates me. For a second, I had thought, well...at least he admitted it. Nope...wishful thinking.

I get why people cheat, but once caught, to call everyone an idiot while making yourself look like one is just beyond me. I feel sorry for the family members and friends (maybe former?) of these type of people once their story, and their denial are made public...and go viral.

Reminds me of what road racers have said about triathletes on group rides.

Yeah, I seriously see the usefulness for older people or people with other problems being able to keep up with friends, on groups rides etc. Seems like a good thing to me.

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Why use thermal imaging?

The conversation should be as easy as, "please remove your seat post, our mechanic will help you reinstall it." "okay now I am going to use this $30 camera and my iphone to look in your frame..."

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I'd be absolutely flattered if a race official asked to inspect by bike for a motor!

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Doping and motors are completely rampant. It's the reason I don't win every triathlon I enter and go to Kona every year.

So back to my original query. How can IR cameras be used to easily detect motors?
They are not much use unless the motor is in use or has recently been in use or the battery has recently been charged. So there is not an obvious way that they can be used in transition. You could try and use them out on the course but that would be a PITA to implement and you wouldn't be guaranteed to catch all offenders unless you did multiple checks throughout the bike leg for every competitor. You'd also need people checking the images during the race and inspecting suspect bikes by other means before they're taken from transition after the race for confirmation. Is this the proposal?
This was my query. I never said it couldn't be done. I queried the assertions that this was easy and cameras are cheap. There's a bit more to it than that![/quote]

Yes heat is light, but its where its coming from and the quantity thats important here, and in this case its a localized point probably just above the bottom bracket,

I take the point that I've been banging on about thermal camera's a bit, and really thats just because I've been playing with one this week so this thread popped up at a good time, its not hard to point a camera at a bike from 10-20 ft away and see a hot seat tube, as for the implementation of actually doing it, personally I'm from TT/ cyclocross not Tri, so dont really have any knowedge of how transitions work but regardless of sport, I think checking needs to be done whether its by camera, compass or dissasembly,

Anyway my point about it not being hard to check wasnt really intended to sugest using thermal stuff, just that if you compulsary test the top finishers for doping, mechanical or other wise and give anyone caught a severe punishment then the problem should not be a problem for long.

The rules for Tri (ITU) are found in Appendix N (p 207) of the current rule book, in terms of the checks. Thermal cameras are effective when the motors are in use or shortly thereafter. If you controlled in transition, it would likely be using the tablet style scanner that the UCI uses. That's not to say that you couldn't put an official in plain clothes on the side of the road with a thermal camera to flag athletes for targeted post-race testing...

I'd not be comfortable doing that the day before a race. Lugs epoxied into CF, and seatpost collars, can and have failed, especially if one has no access to a torque wrench at a race site. This is exactly the kind of a problem that isn't fixable in the short term, what with the proliferation of different seatpost systems.

The race officials should just use a thermal camera. They are cheap. There are even models that attach to tablets or smartphones.

I don't agree that motors are a widespread problem. I'm sure someone has done it somewhere at least once, but it isn't widespread. PEDs on the other hand, that is widespread especially amongst the 40+ crowd.

They better know what they are doing on a wide range of bikes. I have a BMC TM01 and the bike needs to be held at about 110 degrees to ensure the seatpost clamp doesn't fall into the seat tube when removed. People have had there's jammed into the bottom of the frame. I carry a spare clamp just in case when I travel to destination races. And you need a torque wrench to tighten it down without cracking the frame. So it's not as fast as you would think, and it presents a potential financial liability the RD probably doesn't want to take on.

okay, how about remove a water bottle cage and use a water bottle boss or any other penetration in the frame.

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And do what...push a wire in or something with zero knowledge of what might legitimately be inside ... such as the foam core left from the mold? BTW, I also have a 2010 Giant Advanced Trinity SL-1 superbike with NO water bottle bosses anywhere on the frame...a true time trial bike.

You've clearly gone to great lengths to make your motor hard to find...


There is no solution to this problem so we can forget about it. (I really don't think this is a wide spread issue)

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Ha, I sure don't bike like I have an electric motor. I agree that this is not a widespread problem, but I do support WTC doing some sort of infrared testing in transition. It's only a matter time before they catch someone.

I don't understand all these ridiculously complicated methods of testing that obviously have little value. It takes seconds to remove a crank and inspect the bottom bracket. If you got a hollowtech for example it's 1 Allen key and a multi-spline tool. Inspect the first 3 bikes into T2 plus a handful of random testing. You could probably even flick the tube and see if it sounds right or place a magnet against the tubes and see if it feels consistent. What the heck can an iPad with a pretty graph tell you?

If it's done after the athlete enters T2 there is no concerns over putting the bike back together again in a rush and you aren't allowed to swap bikes on the course so no-one should be able to ride on their e-bike then jump on a clean bike. There isn't a need for pre-race scrutineering. Leave it down to the athlete to put the crank back on so can't say anything has been damaged or over-tightened. You'd still have a potential problem of some sort of rear wheel/hub system being swapped out on the course but I don't know how you'd ever negate that.

I used to work at an engine builders / race car builders. We were the approved workshop for eligibility testing for a couple of national championships. The chief scrutineer would observe us strip engines to ensure compliance to rules. Then we would reseal them with lock-wire and a unique seal number or there would be sanctions imposed if it didn't conform, photographs taken etc.

This seems to only be a problem for cycling/ triathlon. Other sports have been doing intrusive eligibility checks for years.

I'm all for catching the cheats, but you are seriously suggesting that the RD pull athlete cranks and then hand the bike back with it off because everyone has the tools and knows exactly what to do. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

Yes I am. If people don't like the entry criteria they are welcome not to enter the race.

They could put the components back in place, nip any bolts up loosely and put a tag on the handlebars to the effect of "your bike has been examined for eligibility and will require re-assembly/inspection prior to further use". Job done. They do it to our baggage at the airport,why shouldn't it happen to our bikes at a race?

This isn't the same as HSA putting a piece of paper in your luggage telling you they looked. I'm not a RD, but I suspect they would find this proposal to be ludicrous and detrimental to participation. There are untold numbers of triathletes who can't even change a bike tire let alone know how to reassemble a crank. Calling Fleck and Slowman to weigh in on this idea.

Here is a quick solution to not inspect having to inspect everyone.

Inspect top 10 overall, top 3 on each age group. Shouldn't take that long. Avoid any disassembly of cranks/bb unless external method brings a positive.

My suggestion is it would be targeted, not done routinely to everyone same as anti-doping is. A process reserved for the podium finishers, super fast bikers, someone who appeared to have had a breakthrough cycling performance or directed by intelligence (a tip off)... plus a handful of randoms as a deterrent.

I personally don't see a problem, particularly at prominent races like regional champs. Might not be appropriate at small local races. Better than wasting time with thermal imaging, iPads and all this other non-destructive nonsense they isn't even guaranteed to identify a motor IMO.