Me too. Only have the road bike as my reference, but I always end up perched on the nose, and even if I at some point consciously move back, I end up there again.

I'm sure it has something to do w/ more weight being forward and on yer arms vs. non-aero position.

In my case, my saddle is tilted ever so slightly down in front (for comfort), so I'm sure that also contributes to the effect.

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float , hammer , and jog

Same here.

I.ve noticed the same thing for myself and others. For me, at least partially, it comes from choking up on the aerobars. When I'm riding hard, I tend to tense up and pull myself forward at the bars, which pulls me out on the tip of the saddle.

Happens to me too. I believe it has something to do with my tendency to pull/ lever on my s-bends the harder I pedal. So my upper body contracts a bit.
One fitter also told me that some people ride on the saddle nose to decrease the friction between the inner legs and the saddle.

Stefan

me too. As others said, it must have something to do with the aero position. When you are leaning forward like that you tend to slide forward. As opposed to on the road bike when you spend a lot of time on the hoods with your arms locked straight in front of you. I just feel more powerful (not that thats sayin' much) when I move forward

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"ah-hem...the time is yours."

Same here. I just assumed it was from a natural inclination to want to be upright for comfort, thus increasing the torso/femur angle. Or maybe a reflexive reaction to sitting on the boys for too long.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I'm guilty of this as well. I would try to "choke up" on the aerobars and felt the more forward I was, the more power I got out of my pedal stroke, at least in aero position. Felt like I needed to almost be in front of my pedals. So, I was sick of the pain of sitting on the nose of the saddle and got a Thomson Setback seatpost and turned it around and moved my saddle all the way forward, and STILL felt like I wanted to be further up, so I then traded that in for a Profile Fast Forward seat post and think I've finally got it. I can sit in the middle of the saddle for max power, and sit on the back for comfort even in aero. Works for me.

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My business-eBodyboarding.com

same here. What we need is someone with a power meter and hrt monitor who can tell us the difference in watts/hrt in different positions. I suspect its to do with keeping the angle of the hip open = more power.

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Simple Simon
Where's the Fried Chicken??

Dev & Co. ... it's leverage! By moving forward you create longer lever over / in front of the pedal spindle. Alot of guys @ SF Grand Prix this weekend were standing & leaning way forward to create this leverage going over Filmore & Taylor St. hills! (some stayed seated and nosed forward) ..... when in the TT position, forward often coincides with higher cadence needs/choices.

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I guess what I am asking is if there is a point of diminishing returns. The "rivet" position at 81 degrees is 8 cm forward of the rivet on 73 for my saddle height. That is 8 cm on a crank that is 17.25 cm, so almost half the crank length. It seems that at some point, it would be senseless to slide any further forward. Its at the point now that after each of my races, I have bruises and cuts on my right knee when it hits the bolt on my stem on the downstroke from time to time (my right leg is bowed and my knee comes in on the downstroke)

All this seems pretty silly to me, but my bike splits have been strong. I can still shove my saddle forward another 5 cm and sit in the middle (I'd end up at 84 degree angle on a p3) if I wanted to but that seems insane. Plus, I do like to sit up on the back of the saddle for seated climbing (so with a 79 degree angle, I can slide back to 74 degrees or so).

In any case, I do agree with others that riding the rivet also seems to conincide with choking up on the bars.

There are a few reasons one slides forward on the saddle when going hard. First, the entire body tenses include shoulders, chest, back, and abdominals. This tensing shortens the body thus resulting in an anterior movement of the hips - sliding forward in the saddle. Second, flexibility is at issue. As you get more aero, the required stretch of the low back, gluteal, and hamstring muscles becomes greater. Each muscle group has a power zone in terms of its stretch/shortening position. With lack of flexibility or full range of motion strength training (or both) the muscles will again shorten to accomodate the power zone of each muscle. Third, as you get more aero your hips rotate forward causing a change in directional application of force to the pedals. By sliding forward your body realigns itself toward its most powerful hip/knee/ankle angles for power transfer to the pedals.



Additionally there are a multitude of other factors that can play on an individual and why they may slide forward.

"riding the rivet also seems to conincide with choking up on the bars. "

I also do this on the tri bike which is set up fairly steep.

Also notice that most of the TDF TT riders tend to do the same thing despite being more slack due to the ICU rules.

In contrast when I've used my road bike on a tri it's set up slammed as described by John Cobb with the seat back and dropped a bit. When I ride the road bike on the shortie Profile Jammer GT bars in this position I tend to stay back on the seat.

I do the same thing. I have a custom Guru with a 78 degree seat tube. I use an Easton EC90 Zero offset post with an Aspide Triathgel saddle slammed all the way forward. I have to be riding 81 degrees when I go hard. Only need the last 2 inches of the nose of the saddle.

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I wanna go fast!

Isn't this heresy? Shouldn't the seat be in the position designated by a FIST certified fitter?

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Here are some lame pics from this year:

Bad

http://www.photoreflect.com/...lbum=0&adjust=-1

Worse (on the rivet and not even riding aero)

http://www.photoreflect.com/...lbum=0&adjust=-1

Better

http://www.brightroom.com/...M=photos&BIB=140

Three different bikes, different positions, same year, all on the rivet....

[reply]

Isn't this heresy? Shouldn't the seat be in the position designated by a FIST certified fitter?[/reply]

Didn't you realise it's REALLY important you get fisted.....duhhhh

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

I do the same, too. But, I've been consciously pushing myself to the back of the seat and sliding my arms back on the aerobars for climbing. I concentrate on smooth circular pedalling while climbing (well, all the time, but more so on climbs). It feels like more power to me. I try to always stay seated for climbs up to around 10%. After that, my butt's gonna come out of the saddle every now and then.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Hey Dev! Nice photos! You looked great in that last one. I've been on the P3C for the past two weeks and I am finding a similar pattern of sliding forward no matter what the angle of the seat. After many adjustments, I found a happy compromise where I'm sitting near the center of the seat- but still a bit forward. If you check out shots of Zabriskie, Jullich or Basso, the same appears to happen to them. I thought it was because I was lower in the cockpit- which definitely contributes to it, but a more neutral seat position seems to work best for me. Keep it rolling and nice job helping that dude out at the race this past weekend. Doesn't surprise me. You're always the gentleman.

I don't know if you have ever been fit on your bike but have you cosidered that your position doesn't fit you and you are sliding forward becuase ou are not properly supported on your bars?

It's not just an aero thing. If you watch the pro riders in a criterium, when they really put the hammer down in the front, they all pull themselves foreward on the seat also. I've raced every type of machine, in every type of race, and it appears that we pull ourselves foreward on the saddle to get into a better spinning position. It is the one thing that all the scenearios have in common, the need to spin faster. When it gets to be crunch time, we don't put it in a bigger gear and mash it, we pull foreward and spin faster. It's just our bodies telling us the most efficient way to go faster.....

Dev,

Dude - you really ARE a sail, sheesh! You weren't kidding. ;-)

Although the newest pic looks much better. I must look like Bjorn compared to you, and I'm SLAMmed on a plain ol' road bike. Maybe I don't need a new Tri bike after all, yer making me feel a lot better about my position w/ those pics.

Of course, the ends justifies the means, so keep on sailing to those killer bike splits. You are now another "famous" tri dude w/ a non ST-approved position.

Maybe that 48t big ring works better in the beach cruiser position? ;-)

PS - nice bike.

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float , hammer , and jog

Dev-

The 1000 island pics look good.

Did you have to kick in the afterburners to beat that guy to the finish : )

Me-- I've always ridden on the nose to make power. I ride at 76 degrees though.

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Seeing him in deep torment, I said. " You can have my last GU , but its been down my pants for most of the run". - John Hirsch

Take care of your body, its by far the coolest thing you're going to ever own.- Can't remember who told me this, but I love it.

I am convinced that we would all ride on top of the handlebars if we were allowed to.



just kidding- don't know shit about bikes.

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Natas, formerly Satan, formerly Sammo, formerly lucifer

dp,

I have noticed this as well. It is interesting that you bring this subject up for consideration.

I am intrigued to discover if by moving forward on the saddle in the aero position actually compromises our power output/aero optimized position or if it is some innate effort to optimize power output without regard to aero considerations.

In the end, are we better off to work to force ourselves back on the saddle where our fit/position optimization placed us in the first place than to stay way forward on the tip of the saddle?

It seems as though we need a wind tunnel test of this to determine the answer to this question.

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.