I haven't tried eggs in the mircowave--any tricks to this?

You probably start with eggs and a microwave. But then what?

Please edit your Subject line to "Cooking". Thank you.

Just whip the egg in a bowl and pop it in for about 1:10, depending on how strong your nuker is. If done in the proper time it should easily come out of the bowl in perfect sandwich form. Leave it in too long and it will stick to the bowl something fierce. Too little and it wont be cooked. a little salt and pepper, two slices of toast and you have an instant egg sandwich.

Add a veggie sausage and a slice of cheese an those things are heaven.

http://www.gssiweb.com/...amp;CFTOKEN=25477652

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Not a bad idea if you want to take an outside chance of being on a kidney machine the rest of your life.

ALL NSAID's (OTC or prescription... asprin, ibupro., alleve, bextra, celebrex, vioox, etc.) usage and extreme endurance activites is a bad combination... a sort of Russian Roulette thing.

Do a search of this sight... go way back... and you'll find some very good threads on this subject matter.

FWIW Joe Moya

BTW, you can't hydrate yourself out of potential negative side effects. The issue is procession fluids, not consuming fluids.

Funny you should mention this... I spoke to an experience doctor (and, marathoner) about this issue last week. After our conversation and my referenced evidence... he has changed his opinion about the risks associated with NSAID's and endurance sports.

NSAID's may or may not be the big evil drug of endurance athletes... however, until more research is done and/or the current research indicates otherwise... NSAID's are not something that should be assumed to be a drug without toxicity - specially with regard to extreme endurance events.

FWIW Joe Moya

What about the NBA player who had to retire due to damaged kidney from taking NSAIDS before and during games. Can't remember his name, but it was fairly recent.

jhc, nice Q and A article from 2001. But, I'm not sure the information is complete, nor current. I got my information about NSAID dangers from a nephrologist in Charlotte, NC, last year. He says one big reason healthy young adults were forced have to go on dialysis was due to menstrating women taking too much Ibuprofen for pain relief. I asked him about NSAIDS and endurance events...he flatly said he would never recommend taking them for endurance events, and that he had treated people with kidney failure following endurance events, and he is convinced it was related to NSAID use. I wish I could remember his name, and see if he's published anything about his experience. A PubMed search could show if more recent info is out there.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Sure, doctors are always right!

Good luck!

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Very nice and un-biased "Review". Don't you love it?

And doctors complain that they get sued all the time?

Although taking "one or two" does not really relate to what I see "practiced".

I love my intestines and other organs and will not endanger them as long as I need them.

Already the slightest shadow of doubt should keep you away from that stuff.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Ibuprofen is gods work.

I suffer from the same back pain, from a crushed vertabae years ago. I also get a terrible sciatica when riding a bike for long periods.

I don't take any pills ( in real life, or in IM) unless it's really necessary.

Ibuprofen has got a bad rap due to people abusing it. (A friend ended up urinating blood after using it for 3 weeks staright, without seeing a doctor to get teh root porblem seen to. He blacked out as he crossed the finish line of IM and woke up in hospital)

I raced? 3 IM races without ibuprofen and suffered horribly on race day each time. One year I got off my bike and lay on the side ofthe road for 5 minutes to straighten out my back, to no avail. I managed a 7:15 bike split! :-( suffering the entire way, then walked/stumbled for 12km until I could feel below my knees and start running/wobbling again. 15:15 finish time for one of the worst days of my life.

Last IM I took 2 ibuprofen at the midway of the bike and then forgot to take the next 2, 4 hours later. I managed to get some aspirin from an aid station for some relief. I raced a PB and had a truly great day and a fantastic experience.

Ibuprofen as a prophylactic in IM will do no harm in my opinion, unless you've been using it excessively in the buildup. I don't condone the use of pain killers and NSAIDS simply because you're pushing hard on the day. If you have a real problem, like my crushed vertabrae, sciatica (and arthritic hips) then I think it's OK to use it on race day.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

ASA and ibuprofen are not particularly different in terms of their risks. I wonder in this discussion how many of those who would never pollute the temple of their bodies with advil have never taken an aspirin.

Having said that, your thoughts regarding 'abuse' of NSAIDS are not correct. Severe NSAID side effects are not always dose related, and can be idiosyncratic - ie people have had fatal GI bleeds from small, occaisional doses of NSAIDs.

I guess the question is what is "really necessary"? Is it really necessary that you do an IM? No, it's all a risk vs benefit, but the trick is that no one knows the risk in an individual person. I don't think it's a good idea to take NSAIDs in an IM, but we allow people to take all sorts of risks in other areas of life. If you can't do an IM without it, but it's important to you and you know you're taking a risk, well...

Deke

Sorry, but don't remember that incident....but, I do know of more than number of expected marathoner's who have had kidney issues as a result of improper NSAID use (documented by research - it's posted at PubMed).

My guess is that the MBA star problems were a by-product of long term useage... simular to women who experience kidney problems because of long term use as a result of monthly period issues (typically hypotoxic in nature - i.e., liver related and not just kidney).

The kind of problems surrounding endurance athletes and NSAID useage seems to be more a product of NSAID useage with or without long term useage. The reason hasn't be fully explained (that I know of). However, if you look at how NSAID's work, it's not a big leap to finding the association between NSAID usage and Hyponatremia (a rather rare occurance - except in instances where NSAID's have been used).

As best I know, there is no study to indicate the dosage and frequency level at which NSAID's become problematic. However, there seems to be evidence that it is a contributing factor. How much? No one knows and the drug companies are not likely to spend a lot of money to research a product that has already been approved for the GENERAL population. The endurance athlete useage is not necessarilly the same conditions that the NBA player took NSAID's. However, the results are pretty much the same - kidney problems.

In short, long term use vs. short term use may or may not have the same toxic triggering mechanism. However, the evidence seems to point in the direction that there is a linkage. How much seems to vary significantly from individual. So, it is not safe to assume that because you have use NSAID's for years in a simular fashion does not rule out the chance of the nasty Toxic Side-effects to become an issue (even in historically "safe" conditions, levels of dosage and frequency of use).

FWIW Joe Moya

Tridork. I have two discs with degenerative disorder. I did not discover this until I had a bike accident about 7 years ago. I spent a year with severe lower back pain taking prescription anti-inflammatories and muscle relaxants. It knocked me off training for several years. It is not a condition that will heal so I have to work around it with core strength training and stretching. It is manageable and I have my bike set up so that it is comfortable but nonetheless I still get a sore lower back after the bike, and at the IM distance it normally takes me about 45 minutes to stretch it out on the run. I sometimes also get a sore lower back after the swim since the wetsuit bouyancy on my legs curves my back. Before the crash I had two IM finishes in the low 10 hours and was a half IM specialist. These days I'm lucky to be in the 12 hour range mostly due to lower training volume and lower focus. I'm shooting for a 13 hour IMWI finish but I won't be pushing myself at all (this time I really mean it, I'm going to take it easy).

I have prescription anti-inflammatories that thank goodness I almost never take anymore except after a long distance race - they don't have side effects but I just don't have pain anymore. I was hoping to take something much safer to help alleviate the discomfort at the IM. I've tried Ibuprofen during training and it works. It does take about one hour to kick in but it works great. However, my training sessions are not 13 hours long so I don't really know.

Tri-dork... that is one of the best practical experience uses I have seen posted on this subject matter.

Which tells me when people say they have to have NSAID's to perform, I am convinced that what needs to be done is re-evaluate their priorities. And, begin training with the intent to reduce injury (amazing how performance seems to follow).

Your use of NSAID's as a recovery aide is absolutely spot on. To use it as a way to participate or improve performance is pretty much asking for long term problems. And, frequently those problems are not kidney related... but, they instead are repetative use injury related. I think NSAID's mask many more severe repetive use injuries than they help.

And, again - your spot on when you say... your training sessions are not 13 hrs. long. Big difference betwen using NSAID's when you train (...also in training you can usually regulate the environment or choose of environment in which to train) and when you race. So, to assume you can train with NSAID's and race with NSAID's is probably not a good comparison to make assumptions from.

Good post... FWIW Joe Moya

What I see is a handful of anecdotal accounts, usually with no mention of how much ibuprofen the person involved took. There is no conclusive evidence on Medline that I can see.

I'm sure most doctors would err on the side of caution, and that's fine. But I'd like to see a real analysis on the risk of renal failure and how it relates to the dose taken. Here's 1 controlled study, albeit small, which although supports the idea that ibuprofen can inhibit renal blood flow, doesn't seem to support the sort of "sky-is-falling" "if you take Advil you will die" repsonses I've seen here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...mp;list_uids=9931196

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I do know of more than number of expected marathoner's who have had kidney issues as a result of improper NSAID use (documented by research - it's posted at PubMed).

Care to provide references?



However, if you look at how NSAID's work, it's not a big leap to finding the association between NSAID usage and Hyponatremia (a rather rare occurance - except in instances where NSAID's have been used).

The link between NSAIDs and hyponatremia is pretty tenuous...

However, I agree with you that taking NSAIDs during a race will increase the risk of renal and/or GI problems, and I think it's safe to say that the risk increases as the dose increases.

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Instead of pills - use gels! I use Voltaren pain-gel (bought in Germany). Contains stronger/better stuff than ibuprofen, but are absorbed through the skin locally where you need it. No kidney problems, less total amount of drugs.

(I'm not talking about tiger balm related stuff, but real drugs mixed in balm/gel.)

The study you cited states: "OTC Ibu has small but statistically significant effects on GFR during exercise in a sodium- and volume-depleted state; OTC Acet was associated with no such effects."

In this study, done in 1999, people exercised for 45 minutes, and were dehydrated somewhat. A statistically significant decrease in GFR for 45 minutes isn't that big of a deal. You can remove a kidney from the body for longer than that (especially if you cool it), and it will perk right up and work just fine in the next body. Not such a good idea to do for 10+ hours in an uncooled body with high levels of waste production to filter and screwing around with Prostaglandin levels.

How many people would sign up for a 10+ hour (instead of 45 minutes) study of the effects of Ibuprofen on GFR? There seem to be lots of willing volunteers (people doing IM's that take ibuprofen), but, I wonder if any researchers would consider studying them? There is the risk of danger to the volunteers for one thing. For another, it's highly unusual for knuckleheads to do some extreme endurance event like this, so what's the point of the research? Maybe military applications?

Rereading my original post, I don't see a "sky is falling" attitude, of which you alluded. The stuff is associated with severe renal dysfunction/failure in otherwise healthy adults, and it warrants respect/caution when used, period. Even more respect/caution should be shown when used during and extreme endurance event. I wouldn't use it, others might, it just needs to be used with appropriate respect/caution, and that requires awareness and education.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Take it, also some Vivarin helps me for racing (TT)

Three common studies of marathoners and hyponatremia... mostly indicating that it (hyponatremia) does occur.(1,2,3) As for it's relationshipp with NSAID's and Hyponatremia, the studies were not (IMO) stastically conclusive but shouldn't be negated either. It seems the population was small and the studies showed a relationship between NSAID useage and Hyponatremia. When you say tenious... I might agree to some degree if you consider about a 50/50 chance (1,2, loosely interpretated) with studies that were a relatively small population.(2) Again, I think the problem has not be studied enough to verify the relationship - specially since other factors were present as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...p;list_uids=11399389

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...p;list_uids=12544163

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...p;list_uids=11828223

I think it was once put very nicely when it was said by a med. tent doctor (to paraphrase)... "I have always seen a conscience and capable of drinking person recover from dehydration without IV's... even if they feel horrible... but have seen almost every instance of IV complicate issues when misapplied because of improper diagnoses as hyponatremia caused by too much fluid intake versus hyponatremia caused by kidneys problems resulting in the bodies inability to process fluids". I think the point that was being made was IV's have the potential to being more problematic that some might expect. NOTE: I am referencing IM distance races.

I will agree... the relationship between NSAID and ultra-endurance events are problematic in their relationship... However, there is a relationship... the question is how much of a relationship. I prefer to err on the side of eliminate useage prior to and definately during during a long term activity. That's just playing it safe. When it comes to inflamation vs. kidney damage, I choose inflamation.

I believe NSAID's are a recovery medication and shouldn't be used as a drug to enhance performance. It also shouldn't be used as a replacement for good training practices. Renal failure is serious. And, to increase that risk seems irrational. Specially since the point of toxicity has not been determined. There is no study I have seen that defines at what dosage amount, frequencey, timing or high risk individuals are associated with NSAID induced renal failure and ultra-endurance sports. But, there are studies that indicate an association - is it a sufficient association? Difficult to determine at this time (IMHO).

FWIW Joe Moya

OK, so study 1 showed an association, study 2 showed no association ("There were no significant differences in vital signs, training variables, or NSAID use between H and NH groups") and study 3 only had 3 hyponatremic patients and was unable to evaluate the role of NSAIDs at all. I think the linkage is far from conclusive, which is why I called it tenuous. And studies which don't reach statistical significance should be negated, as any association they show may simply be due to chance - you can't base medicine on hunches.

However, I generally agree with your general proposition that you "prefer to err on the side of eliminate useage prior to and definately during during a long term activity. That's just playing it safe. When it comes to inflamation vs. kidney damage, I choose inflamation." Better safe than sorry...

I'd like to see more research in this area. Given that many people take NSAIDs during marathon or IMs and don't suffer renal damage, etc... it would be nice to know if there was a way to intelligently predict how one might be able to reduce inflammation during a long race without killing themselves.

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You and I are pretty much on the same page...

Perhaps I prefer to be more addiment about proper NSAID usage. Basically, I see it as 1 study which says there is an association and 3 others that say neither - that, 1 yes and 2 neither yes or no. Hmmm.... sounds like a question of... "Is the research glass half empty or half full sorta issue?"

At any rate, you got one thing right... there needs to be more reseach to define the particulars. Unfortunately, all we have isn't that definative... However, when you consider how NSAID's work in general, it still sounds reasonable to assume that NSAID's are not a plus when it comes to kidney functions and endurance sports. Just how detrimental and to what extremes the tolerance levels are considered acceptable there seems to be no real answer. Or as I have said before, "Just how big of game of Kidney Russian Roulette is NSAID's when it comes to endurance events?" I for one prefer not to find out.

Until then, I don't recommend the use of NSAID's to enhance performance in ultra-endurance sports. Or, using NSAID's as an option to allow for continued participation in a sport because of an injury. NSAID's often mask the real source of problems - poor training methods and/or excessive expectations.

FWIW Joe Moya

I can only go by experience: I took 2 Advil at the bike special needs at IM CDA this year and 2 more at the run special needs. I never used them in training but needed them during the race for my mid back and right knee. Both times the drugs worked and added to my overall enjoyment factor of the race. (That sounds bad). Anyway, no kidney problems just pain relief. BTW, my uncle came to watch the race and he had no problem with me taking the Advil.

Just an anecdotal response.

Good luck in your IM.

Mike

Any idea of how long an NSAID stays in your system? I restarted taking generic Relafen today to help with lower back problems, and would like to have it at least mostly out of my system before IM Wisconsin in 11 days.