I guess that depends what you are looking for.

Enjoy watching Jumbo play the Ineos game with much more style and personality. Have no problem appreciating that all next week. Pogacar is insane, and doing a lot of it following other wheels. If he can hang to la planche des belles filles, the rematch of Slovenian Nationals where he bested Roglic will be spectacular.

Porte and Uran fighting to get onto the podium. Totally rooting for that.

Its funny, because I was in the "anyone but Ineos" camp before this race, and found myself feeling sorry for Bernal. But maybe I am in the camp of "anyone but a super team". I just hate watching trains going at such a high pace that there are no attacks. Blame it on Lance I guess !!!!

That's going to make it another awfully quiet year in the "TejayInYellow" reddit group (https://www.reddit.com/r/TejayInYellow/) ;)

I would like to know the logic behind a guy like van aert putting up a pace that drops Quintana and Bernal on the mountains, the terrain when in theory they should be significantly better than him.

He stopped riding several km before the end of the climb and lost seven minutes to his leader and four minutes to Nairo because he was fried after doing his job. He's also one of the strongest riders of the past decade, multiple world cross champ, which involves putting out huge watts for a relatively short period, like what he did today. See also: Kwiatkowski literally stopping to recover after his early mountain pulls a couple of years ago.

What is your point?

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I am not sure what is my point other than what I see is odd. And I am seeking for an explanation that is credible. It is not about Van Aert in particular, jumbo arrived with I believe three or four riders to the last km after having dropped two of the best climbers.

All those other guys could be GC guys on other teams - some have even won GTs!

They're the pointy and of world class riders, on basically the same level, and they don't need to push all the way to the finish line.

It wasn't that long ago Alaphilippe was in yellow and riding with these guys to the finish. And as noted earlier, both Quintana and Bernal have been banged up recently. And Quintana definitely doesn't have the same level of team support.

Oh, that's easy. There is no salary cap in cycling. They just spend more on riders than anyone outside of Ineos.

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No one dropped Bernal, Bernal dropped himself.
Quinatna crashed multiple times the last few days and is a shell of the Quintana from last month.
WvA can be a team leader if he wants to and have 8 guys ride at his beck and call and easily win the green jersey, and likely 4-5 stages.
Tom D has won the Giro and came 2nd in the Tour and can be a team leader on pretty much any team of his choosing if he was on the market, and would in all likelihood be on the podium this year.
Yet they are at their own choosing riding in the service of Roglic to help him win the Tour.
So these are not some random "domestiques" dropping the "super climbers".

Probably not true. Per this article, they're likely only 5th-6th on total payroll. At best. They've apparently increased payroll since 2019, but in 2019 were estimated to be "7th richest"

I can't immediately find the article, but there was a good article on how they are able to retain riders at lower than market rate. None of their riders make big money. If you look at recent top-10 contracts list, there are 5 Ineos riders and zero Jumbo-Visma. Tom Dumoulin and Wout van Aert reportedly took well under their market value to join Jumbo-Visma. And other riders are very loyal, like George Bennett and Kruiswijk, both of whom are career Jumbo guys. They convinced Tony Martin to essentially give up TT and one-day racing and do nothing but patrol the front every day at Grand Tours until the road tilts way up (even then he can lost pretty deep into the start of a climb).

Another point is that Jumbo-Visma is 100% all-in for the Tour de France his year. They took their top 8 riders. They're completely forfeiting the Giro and likely Vuelta. (excepting Kruiswijk maybe coming back after injury). While Trek sent Nibali and Ciccone to the Giro, Ineos Thomas (clearly better than most Ineos domestiques), Astana didn't bring Fuglsang and red-hot Vlasov, Mitchelton-Scott didn't bring Simon Yates. EF didn't bring Woods.

Edit: I'm wrong Dumoulin cracks the top-10 list, apparently. But he's the only one.,

Edit edit: Wrong about being wrong. That was his Sunweb contract. Apparently he took a pay cut to go to Jumbo, and is now out of the top 10.

Its good when your highest paid guy is your Super Domestique Tom Doumoulin and Roglic does not make the top 10 highest paid. This is the scenario when the CEO is lower paid than the top commissioning sales guys in an early stage company that is trying to break through....you need those guys to outperform the market for the entire company to win. There is a lot you can do in terms of paying under market if the trade off is the team you join is going to have wins.

That makes sense

Hard to believe these guys are willing to give up personal glory (and $$$!) for team glory. Really hard. If Roglic wins, it will be his victory; the support team will not be remembered.

They remind me of Postal/Discovery, only those guys were not stars in their own right so it would make way more sense. If the domestiques performed well enough to lead a team, then they'd leave... and the team would just find another who would quickly outperform.

I wonder if Jumbo has found a new drug, and they are all promised a turn.

Maybe not by the mainstream. But among cyclists the name Tony Martin will be revered for a long time. And not just for his prior TT exploits, but his utterly selfless ability to set tempo for up to 100km a day for weeks on end.

Agreed. I can't imagine a team sky/ineos without remembering Kwiato. Even with the TdF win, I still think of Geraint as more of a domestique. Not sure if WvA will ever be one to go for GC but he seems to be making his on-road name in the same light as Tony, but of course with him, it'll be hard to forget the CX exploits.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Martin has had his period of fame and fortune. He can't win TTs anymore, so he's a domestique now... totally makes sense.

But these other guys are not over the hill. Nobody wants to play super domestique when they can win races and be rich and famous. You have a clear shot at winning a GT, but you're happy supporting someone else instead? No way in hell. The only way that works is if you take turns, and the team has some special juju to offer that makes you believe your odds are better taking turns than they would be leading your own team somewhere else.

Well Martin kind of failed at his attempt at fame and fortune. He effectively quit TT when he was still easily young enough to be the best, and went to Quick-Step to learn one-day racing. It didn't really work out. So then he decided to become super domestique, which he's great at.


At least for this year Tom Dumoulin and Steven Kruiswijk are (or were for Steven) doing just that. They could have demanded leadership at the Giro or Vuelta. But went all-in for Roglic. Tom Dumoulin pulled the plug on his own GC chances before he'd really lost significant time. And it was apparently by choice.

Wout Van Aert could be decimating the green jersey competition and picking up several more stage wins. But instead he's dropping Bernal up climbs in service to Roglic.

Same with, say, Kwiatowski at Ineos. He could be training for Worlds or Paris-Roubaix. Instead he's grinding himself into hamburger in service to a GC guy (granted Kwiat *is* making big money to do that).

At Sky/Ineos that has always made some sense, since they have the big bucks. But giving up both fame and $$$ doesn't. I can imagine many riders prefer not to have the pressure of leadership as well, especially if they are very well paid to be a workhorse.

Well, apparently, a way in hell.

TD wanted out of Sunweb. His time had run it's course. JV a solid team, with great potential support. As good a situation he was going to find. And while Roglic is coming off a GT win, he is also coming off week 3 declines. So seemed like good option in my mind. Be a viable Plan 1B if needed and feeling good (which he sportingly admitted he isn't at present), be a great options for other GT's.

Kuss is so early in his career (that was born from mountain biking) this is exactly where he should be. And if he can shine helping his leader win several GT's, then his market value goes through the roof.

Wout had no intention of graduating into a road career to be a GT threat. JV well built to support him as a Classics rider. And, he is plenty famous as is. Which is in part why he is the consummate teammate, and fine with sacrificing himself and Green this year. He will have plenty more opportunities. And become plenty more rich.

The other guys are what they are. Great riders with respectable palmares, on a team that brings them recognition and contributes to a career to be proud of when all is said and done. Bennett won Tour of California a few years back, and then consistently top 10 in other shorter stage races. I don't think he has stayed put because he is next up once he gets his "cocktail" you propose.


But, enjoy the instigation for discussion on rest day. :)

Guys who aren't going for GC have the luxury of occasionally riding it out with the gruppetto, or at least don't have the pressure of keeping pace every single day. Van Aert was clearly stronger than Bernal, but he's also over an hour back. That seems to make a pretty big difference in freshness. They had riders to the last km who had dropped Bernal and Quintana on that day, but the previous 14 stages count too.

Jumbo also are very loyal to their riders, so I think the riders are loyal to the team goal in return, I hear the other day that they gave Benett a 4 year extension on his contract for a total of 6 years. in cycling most guys even big names are only on 2 year contracts and are always worried about the next deal, so having a team guarantee you 6 years is going to instill tons of loyalty.

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http://www.instagram.com/cyclewise

Let's also keep in mind that of their current slate of riders, only Tom Dumoulin could arguably be competing for the win at this year's tour. He's said that he knows he wouldn't be a contender given his current form, and so is content at the moment to be support. I think he knows that maybe a Top 5 at this year's tour is feasible and given his existing wins, it would probably be podium or nothing for him.

Steven Kruijswijk is the other member of the team who could compete for a podium, but he's injured.
Bennett might be Top-10 material, but given how quickly he's been dropped after Wout lays the hammer down, I doubt it.
Kuss, as mentioned before, is still new in his career and so might be fine paying his dues for another year or two.

The only other options for these guys would be to sit out the Tour and maybe get a podium on either the Giro or the Vuelta. So, you can either sit out the world's biggest stage not knowing if there will even be a Giro or a Vuelta, or come help. Might as well come help.

Wout is probably the only team member who is actively sacrificing his own ambitions for the sake of the team (he'd otherwise be in Green). Then again, for the rest of the year, he gets the whole team supporting him at the cobbled classics. So not as much a personal sacrifice as a recognition of paying the team back for the support they give him the rest of the year. See also: he did manage 2 stage wins, so there's that too.

Speaking of Wout sacrificing for the team, tomorrow on Stage 16 several Bora climbing studs will go full gas to immediately help Sagan drop Bennet on the first Cat 4 before the intermediate sprint. These first 44 km is going to really suck for everyone after a rest day because its going to jack up the pace out of the gate just before the entire peloton hits the first climb (Col de Porte)....so instead of a leisurely warmup to the first climb, its a full on 44km TTT

As a fan it feels like torture that the TdF is going just past Grenoble to Vizille and instand goes West to Villard de Lans rather than East to Alpe d'Huez...dammit.....last time I was in Vizille was cycling from Annency to Grenoble, watching the Tour de France 1984 as they made their way to ADH for the first ever Colombian win (Lucho Herrera) and ended up climbing up to Vizille on my touring bike to camp up there! (crap that was 36 years ago). Good times. Feels like they are at my home away from home (been over in the area to ride 8 times, maybe next year when we can travel again).

As a fan it feels like torture that the TdF is going just past Grenoble to Vizille and instand goes West to Villard de Lans rather than East to Alpe d'Huez...dammit.....last time I was in Vizille was cycling from Annency to Grenoble, watching the Tour de France 1984 as they made their way to ADH for the first ever Colombian win (Lucho Herrera) and ended up climbing up to Vizille on my touring bike to camp up there! (crap that was 36 years ago). Good times. Feels like they are at my home away from home (been over in the area to ride 8 times, maybe next year when we can travel again).



That is great stuff.

This was the stage I saw live in 1984 after which I camped at a site in Vizille...but it was unplanned....I just got blocked at Grenoble by the Gendarmes due to road closure not realizing the TdF was riding thru. Keep in mind this was pre internet and pre mobile phone and I was riding unplugged across Europe solo and had last track of what the date was....was just trying to ride as fast as I could from Geneva to get to a party with some Dutch girls who I met in Interlaken Switzerland who had left for St. Tropez so was trying to haul my bike and butt as fast as possible to St. Tropez party LOL (and no I did not follow up the Interlaken heroics in San Tropez, but hey, I was 19, what else do you expect???)