Mike,

I'm there too, and I'm a born cynic. Listening ...

Dan

Dear Slowman,

I am proud to say I knew Doug Stern. He came down here to The Race Club in our first year to visit us. He was a great man and one of the first, if not the first, swim coach to focus on triathletes.
I am sure I cannot replace Doug as a swimming guru for the forum but i am happy to contribute what I've learned. Competing in tris for 10 years and several open water swims has also helped me understand the significant differences between pool swims and the challenges of open water.
I am definitely old.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

Glad to see I wasn't the only one trying "bilateral breathing" at my desk... defiantly going to give it a try, thanks Gary!

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Swim to Eat, Bike to Eat, Run to Eat.

I'm not an ophthamologist, but I can do 'rithmetic. 100,000 patients over, to be generous, 40 years is 2,500 new patients per year. That's about 7 new patients per day, 365 days per year, for 40 years, not to mention some 50 linear feet of folders added every year. You really want to stand by that claim?

I'm also not a hydrodynamic specialist, but I think you are confusing torque with drag, when you speak of the difference between a straight arm and a bent arm. If the surface area is the same (and they are in both instances), then the drag will be pretty much the same (unless one position is much closer to the body and changes the hydrodynamics). The torque will, of course, be more on the extended arm as measured at the shoulder, with force x distance and all that. In any case, when during the pull and after the catch does the arm present a forward velocity relative to the water? I'm thinking never, because that would indicate no drag thrust backwards, and no forward propulsion at that time.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Dear GregX,

The key word is slightly. The head needs to be in alignment with the body. When we swim slow, the head needs to be lower. As we speed up and the body rises in the water, the head position goes higher, but the chin is still down. If you watched Cielo in the 50 meter freestyle (no breath I beiieve) the chin was tucked down, even though he was almost hydroplaning. Same with Cavic in the 100 fly (except for the finish). Check out our DVD. You will see.

Gary Sr.

What is wrong with this picture? Next time you go running on your arms, see how much breathing you need. You are only using a fraction of the muscle while swimming that you use while running. Swimming just doesn't require nearly the amount of oxygen that is needed while running or biking.

Oh, I breathe about 50 times every 90 seconds of swimming (10 breaths per 25yds for 125 yards) at race pace. I suggest you check your math, as I don't think you take 22 spl for a long course pool; perhaps you meant 22spl for 25m, for a total of 88 strokes, which comes out more like 30 breaths per 90 seconds. So, you breathe twice as much running, which is reasonable considering you are using far more muscle.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Dear Ken,

There are three types of drag, pressure drag, surface drag and friction. They all play a role in slowing us down in the pool. The faster we go, the more important a role the pressure drag plays. This is the drag, by the way that makes us want to tuck in behind our biggest biker, runner or swimmer and get a ride.
The big appendage we call our arm creates very significant pressure drag, especially when we are moving forward quickly. The top half of the arm is moving forward nearly as fast as the body, but not the forearm and hand, so the position of the upper arm is most important. How we position our arm makes a big difference in the drag coefficient. Try my suggested test and you will see.

Regards,

Gary Sr. And yes, I did have over 100,000 patients in 22 years of practice in Arizona. I must have been doing something right.

Your math is correct....22 strokes short course, 44 long course....DOH...still way down in the pool compared to running (half the amount of breathing). Your point on the weight bearing nature makes sense when going at a moderate intensity, but when you are going all out in any sport, the oxygen needs should be identical whether there is weight bearing or not.

I'll call BS on this too. Maybe 100,000 patient encounters, not 100,000 unique patients.

If in fact you did see 100,000 unique patients, then I don't doubt you had problems with the AZ board, you weren't caring for your patients, rather moving them in and out the door.

I find it hard to believe that this poster is actually Dr. Hall. Anyone with his credentials wouldn't come on this board and spout such nonsense. Maybe I should create a username "Michael Phelps" and try to explain why I had that pipe in my hands.

I call BS on this whole thread.

Well, that's not quite accurate. Oxygen is needed by muscles. The more muscles, the more oxygen is needed. The less muscle, the less oxygen. It's not about weight bearing: when you run, you are using the biggest muscles in the body. The glutes, quads and hamstrings consume vastly more oxygen than do the lats, pecs, deltoids, etc. Even my lats.

As for going all out, now you are talking anaerobic exercise. Breathing doesn't exactly figure into that, does it?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

What? You don't believe he saw 12 new patients, 365 days per year, for 22 years?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

OK, perhaps not all out, but say 1500m Olympic tri. You're still using core muscles and legs, and drawing oxygen with them (especially in a non wetsuit swim). So while O2 needs may not be as high as running a 5K (picked that for equivalent time range), I would think they would be close...at least to the point where "half the amount of oxygen is not enough"

Mr (dr) Hall

X2 what slowman said.

two things:

1) pace yourself on replies.....this place will wear you out

2) there are 1000's of us hungry for swim advice even if some of us stay in the background; some of us are smart enough to listen instead of talk!!

Dr. Hall:
Welcome to ST. I do appreciate you sharing your insight. I learned a lot about swimming from this thread alone.

Btmoney:
I think you may have missed my point in my post. Supplements are legal and available to everyone. Mr. Hall claims to just now release this stuff that his Olympians secretly used to win gold. He tries a little too hard to promote this stuff, (which I think he invented, by the way).
I am all for having great equipment and supplements, as long at it is commercially available to everyone.

I can't believe Gary Hall Sr. is on ST giving tips! Awsome.

carry on....

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

gary,

age-group triathletes swim slower, even as a percentage of their bike and run, than do pro triathletes; that is to say, they bike and run X percent slower than pros, but they swim Y percent slower, and Y is considerably bigger than X. so, they need help in the water. most know they need help.

most slowtwitchers know your son as one of the bright stars of swimming today. a few know that you were, perhaps, an even brighter star in your day. we have 25,000 registered users here, and more "lurkers" than registered users. so, here's a big audience of folks who ought to listen to those with last names like hall, and spitz, and babashoff, and furniss.

you're going to take a lot of guff from folks about products you may promote, and i'm not going to limit or censor that because this forum is like the aboriginal gauntlet through which you run, while we all pound you with sticks; we'll see if you make it through alive.

but swimming: since you broke those world records and made those olympic teams, most of us figure you've already run that gauntlet; we'd like to know how you got yourself through it, and any help you can give, we're eager to listen.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

x2 on that. I watched you in 72 and 76 (I was 6 and had just started swimming competitions in 72), and I watched your son as well. I welcome the swimming tips, just not sure at all on the supplement stuff. :)

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I'm pretty sure we are actually all now dumber for having read any of this. This just doesn't pass my smell test. I'm waiting to next be asked for my bank account number so that the President of Zimbabwe can transfer his fortune to my account.

If GH Sr. wants to give us swim tips while throwing in a few words to hawk some of his products, I have no real problem with that. Just read what you want to read and dont what you don't.

THanks for all the tips and please tell your son that he is an inspiration to me. I'm also a type 1 diabetic and have circumvented many of the complications of diabetes with regular exercise. I'm training for my first IM, so wish me luck on the swim. I'll definitely try the breathing technique. Anyway, thanks to you and to him.

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Remember, one man's ceiling is another man's floor.

X2. A legend offers swim tips and people bicker over how many patients he's seen. Mr. Hall, you are truly getting a "taste" of how ST can be

Welcome, and keep posting the tips. I tried the breathing tonight and I have to admit I felt like it was the first time I've ever swam, but maybe it just takes a lot more practice. But more than willing to listen. Even the decent tri swimmers have stuff to learn :)

Yes I noted the technique you describe while watchin Andrea Hewitt swim training in Chch/N.Z in 2004. Watched her in one ITU race and she was first out of the water and first overalll that day, and she is not big. Am pretty sure it is a common technique in swim squads, but a good reminder to the many on here who don't swim in a squad often.
In triathlon there is often times when there is a ripple on the water such that unilateral breathing is also useful(to prevent swallowing water).
Also if you watch the best 1500m swimmers they breath unilaterally everystroke at times also.

My understanding is breathing will vary a bit in triathletes. If you want to get off the fron then some train to swim without breathing the first 20meters plus. Then it would make sense to unilateral breath a while.
The technique you describe is great for training and racing in open water sometimes. I also sometimes swim 25ms unilateral to oneside and then 25ms unilateral to other side to keep the muscle balance.

Thanks for the useful advice and rejogging the memory.

G.



www.triathlonshots.com

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http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

And if you're going hard enough to require that much oxygen, I doubt you're breathing every third stroke, but more likely every other stroke. Still not equivalent to your running breaths, but getting closer ...

cramer

Dr. Hall, I appreciate your advice on both the swimming and supplements. Each person can choose what is best for him/her. The best part of an internet forum such as this is that anyone can post what he or she thinks. The worst part of a forum such as this that anyone can post whatever he or she thinks. Certainly your ideas and knowledge are thought provoking, please keep posting here.

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09 Cervelo P3
09 Pinarello Prince
10 Stevens Carbon Team

I have never been married, but at my age i think thats appropriate. Not sure what you were referring to (or perhaps you have the wrong google search?).

Regarding welcome- your swim advice i find very good, and for that you really are welcome. The supplements continue to not make any scientific sense to me.

A few questions about technique
-am i the only one whose elbow doesnt bend in the proper direction? when i am starting my catch, laying kind of on my side, with my arm in front of me, palm down, the natural way to bend my elbow is sideways- not up and down. Ie i can bend it towards my other shoulder or ear, but to bend my hand down towards bottom of pool in that position hurts to the point of breaking my arm- clearly my posiiton is wrong somehow- but how? Or is some torquing discomfort in shoulder area normal? My guess is that i am over-rotating my shoulders, and this high elbow pull should be done more on ones stomach than on ones side? (the geometry works better that way)
-your theory of WHY high elbows helps confuses me- you base your logic on the fact that the hand is stationary in the water, but it clearly isnt- during the pull the hand is DEFINETLY moving backwards in teh water- you can feel the water sliding past your fingers (and physics says that to get forward push, you have to move water net backwards, and something has to push it). So if your hand is moving backwards at some speed, and your body is moving forwards, some point (i would guess just below your shoulder) is stationary, but most of your lower arm is definetly moving backwards. So while i agree with the high elbow thing, im not sure i agree with your logic as to why it works. My guess is it works in the way that a canoe paddle works- generates a lot of thrust without slipping out.

N

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!