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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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My wife might do the marathon at Sugarloaf but we're thinking of doing some trail races at Pineland Farms near Portland. She'll do 50k and I'll do 25k. Otherwise I'll do the 15k in Kingfield, it was a fun low key race.

http://www.mainetrackclub.com/pinelandfarms.html
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [leggett24] [ In reply to ]
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That looks like fun too.

I want to add another nice piece of pottery to my collection from Sugarloaf ;-)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Results of higher aerobic atmosphere levels makes it more inhospitable to anaerobes. Pathogens are anaerobic in nature, they cannot survive in this created aerobic environment. When the peroxide secreting bacteria have an established colony in the colon, its difficult for the anaerobes to establish their own colony and the colon is much healthier. When the anaerobes have an established colony, they protect their territory against encroachment by the facultative bacteria by secreting toxins. These toxins may contribute to colitis and other intestinal diseases. This is extremely important during the swim. Excretion of anaerobes into the salty ocean water have been know to contribute to global climate change.

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Note:

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Last edited by: FungShuay: Feb 19, 09 6:11
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [FungShuay] [ In reply to ]
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Very funny, but how long did it take to write that?
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [spotticus] [ In reply to ]
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molecular weight of ATP = 507g/mol

rough estimates:

sedentary daily O2 consumption is approx 1 mole of O2 per hour

1 mole of 02 produces approx 6moles of ATP

Therefore:

24 mol O2/day x 6 mol ATP/O2 mol = 144 mol ATP/day

144mol ATP/day X 507g/mol = 73008 grams of ATP per day

or 73kg, or 161lbs

those are rough estimates, but on average the body produces and consumes it's weight in ATP every day.....without the extra energy expenditure of exercise. So it's safe to say that ATP production and consumption would be much higher (probably 100's of lbs) for an IM.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [FungShuay] [ In reply to ]
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That is the truth.

This thread has gotten better and better.


Twitter @achtervolger
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [leggett24] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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Dunno what brand of liquid oxygen supplement Dr. Hall is selling, but if one simply google's liquid oxygen supplement there are about 35 companies who want to sell you their brand of liquid oxygen.

And the term is very misleading...it is not liquified Oxygen, that is, O2 that has been cooled to a liquid state. It is simply liquid that has O2 molecularly bonded to it in such a way that it decouples the chemical bonds to the liquid upon contact with other substances.

Can't vouch for the other stuff as to it's effectiveness, but liquid oxygen doesn't seem to be as big a secret weapon as once thought!
So hydrogen peroxide?? That's just silly.
Hrm. The hydrogen peroxide theory has been around for a long time, and debunked quite thoroughly, even though a lot of products still persist. PT Barnum was right...

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [spotticus] [ In reply to ]
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To provide more information in addition to what coachct said,

The "average" sedentary male (150 lbs) uses ~2000 kcal/day, which correlates to 83 kg of ATP per day.

At any given time, the "average" body has only about 250 g of ATP in it, total.

ATP is continually recycled - each molecule gives up its third phosphate to produce ADP (adenosine diphosphate) and Pi (inorganic phosphate). The ADP is then rephosphorylated to form ATP in the mitochondria by a process called oxidative phosphorylation. Each ATP is recycled about 300 times. All standard college biochemistry textbooks have this information in them.

So the math works out to about 131 lbs of ATP used during a 2 hour run (like an "average" 1/2 marathon). You can approximately triple that for a HIM (although biking and swimming are not weight-bearing), and maybe multiply by a factor of 4-5 for a full IM. So the body is going through hundreds of pounds of ATP during an endurance event. Even for a sprint, taking an "ATP pill" will do virtually nothing for you, unless you want to factor in the placebo effect, which could be very real.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Hokiebird] [ In reply to ]
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cool stuff, thanks both for the explanation, very surprising. anyone who doubts supps entirely though let me know, I will recommend 2 or 3 that are instantly noticeable, none of which are illegal
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Hokiebird] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Each ATP is recycled about 300 times.
Just a question on this - why a limited lifespan? ATP/ADP is a fairly simple molecule, not like a big protein or DNA. Does it accumulate "damage" of some sort? Or is it just kinetics; some molecules just fall apart eventually?
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Then i recommend holding for one stroke only then bilateral breathe again. That means you get 2 breaths for each 3 arm strokes, rather than one breath for each 2 arm strokes. Or 26.6% more breaths. That is a big difference. I first saw this done by Kieren Perkins of Australia when he demolished the field in the 400 meter freestyle in the World Championships in Rome in 1994. So don't tell me world class swimmers never do this.
When you first try this, you may get dizzy, turning so often, but you will get over that. It also forces you to rotate your body more which is a good thing.

Yours in Swimming,

Gary Hall Sr.
68 72 76 Olympic team
How much should I breathe while doing backstroke?




.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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So I finally got over to the pool today, and I tried a version of your breathing technique. Something like a 3 stroke breathing, to two down though, and it felt really good. Times were as good or better than usual, and checked my HR and it was lower for standard times. Of course I'm really out of shape right now, so this really helps out. I imagine that when I get fitter, I will adjust it again, but definately take more breaths than I used to, and alternate from side to side. And it took very little time to get used to it, and I also found that when I push off the wall, I'm more centered for some reason too.

I've always been a big proponent of breathing every stroke, and this just takes what I've known to be true even farther. Thanks for the tip, never too old to learn new tricks......
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty,

Glad to hear it is working for you. The more i use the technique the more i like it. Of course, my 57 year old lungs and body needs all the oxygen it can get.
I took the day off from ST today, but tomorrow will post my thoughts on fundamental #3. Stay tuned.

Regards,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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.
My advice in a triathlon. Even if you are an accomplished hip-driven freestyler, learn to adopt a shoulder driven, mostly arm propulsion freestyle, keeping the head down (when not occsionally looking up to see where you are headed) the elbows high and swim on the freeway. I will explain what I mean by that tomorrow. And breathe as often as it makes sense. Save the legs. You will slip and glide through the swim with less effort and put yourself in better position to have the best tri of your life.[/reply] why is shoulder driven better than the third option (core) ? also, tried breathing every stroke, but had a hard time figuring out when to deeply exhale ?? appreciate your thoughts.....



what means this word 'change'? .....
Rappstar
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [rrfr] [ In reply to ]
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Dear rrfr,

Core (or Body driven, as Mike Bottom calls it) equates to connecting the hip and shoulder together in one motion. He also uses it with a straight arm recovery that warrants an entire other discussion. With shoulder driven, the hips remain relatively flat and the stroke rate is faster.
Nathan Adrian, who trained with Mike and The Race Club, and is arguably the best up and coming US sprinter, switches from shoulder to core driven in the final 10 to 15 meters of the 100, partly, like with Michael Klim in Australia who switched to dolphin kick, is to maintain the higher stroke rate. Using that technique he won the swimoff at the Olympic Trials and then placed 4th in the final to qualify for the relay.
Regarding the exhale, don't think about it so much. Just let it happen. When you breathe on two successive strokes, you just have enough time to exhale and catch the next breath. Hold your breath only on the single stroke when you don't breathe. Just don't overthink it.

Regards,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Axles of Evil] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Axles,

In backstroke, breathe once per stroke. Let the head go back as the hand passes the vertical on the recovery. You should get a thin wave of water passing over your face and goggles. Otherwise your head is too high. When the water goes over the face, you hold your breath. When you come back up, you breathe, simple as that.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, I tried it at the pool yesterday (first swim in 4 weeks....that's another story). Although it felt weird, it did not take time getting used to it. I did not check splits to see if I was any faster or slower. I suspect that initially I might be slower, not due to less oxygen, but because my timing feels off. I'll check my splits next time I go to the pool.

Dev
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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...anxiously awaiting your update on fundamental #3...

Thanks for posting your thoughts and instruction. I am a shamefully poor swimmer, so I welcome these long, helpful discussions on swimming technique.

Travis
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, at least for us swimmer types it seems to come very quickly. Not sure if that holds true for the non swimmers here, maybe a few can try it and chime in on their results. If you have'nt been in the water for 4 weeks, then I bet it was a big advantage for you. I was just out for a week and a half, and the extra O2 did me a lot of good, to the point that besides feeling better, I was actually hitting times a few seconds faster that I thought I could.

What I focused on was to take 3 breaths in a row out of every turn, that way I could stay down longer and get a good dolphin off the wall. That turn is always the killer when it comes to burning up the O2 tank. Usually I have to take at least 1/2 lap to recover from the turn, but now it comes right after the 3rd breath, and I'm good to go. It really is kind of fun to have learned something new after 40+ years in the water. Like a kid with a new toy, and I just want to go play with it all day now.....
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Hokiebird] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Hokiebird,

Thanks for the input. Keeping in mind that I am a scientist (at heart at least if not in mind) and yet know enough to be dangerous, consider this.
The key point is that ADP is recycled to ATP and back again. You say about 300 times but is that per day, per hour, per minute or per second? Obviously it must go up with demand (exercise). But adding up the total weight of this recylced molecule over a day is very misleading. You are simply weighing the same molecule over and over again. No one would believe that we produce 131 lbs of anything daily since our weight doesn't change and we ingest perhaps 2 or 3 lbs of food or liquid and excrete perhaps a half pound through the kidneys and colon. The rest we metabolize into something and/or burn off.
If what you say is right and that have 250 g of available, recyclable ATP in the body's cells and we eliminate the percentage of that in the brain, retina and all other metabolically active organs that don't contribute much to fast swimming, running or biking, how much is left in the muscle? And of that amount of available ATP in the muscle, does adding 100 mg daily to the pool make a significant difference? And how much of the ingested ATP actually ends up in the muscle? Perhaps.
Creatine has been shown in many studies to reduce % body fat, increase lean muscle and improve athletic performance. Most athletes believe it works. Creatine, like Adnosine, is another form of available, recyclable high energy phosphate. Yet we don't need to ingest 100 lb of creatine per day to see a benefit. Is there a difference between ingesting creatine and adenosine?
Lastly, I want to leave you with one other thought. It appears that intravascular ATP causes peripheral vasodilation. A couple of animal studies have shown that and if you take enough of it, your fingers will tingle, a clinical sign of the same. Perhaps we are looking under the wrong rock. The benefit (all or some) may be in decreasing the resistance of blood flow to the muscle (improving delivery of O2). Nervousness or cold temperatures cause peripheral vasoconstriction and seriously inhibit our athletic performance. Maybe ATP does the opposite.
Food for thought....but not 131 pounds worth.

Regards,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Dr. Hall

This is a great thread. This week have been utilizing this breathing pattern. I like it, a lot. Like you said, in addition to the O2 equation, the added benefit is constant rotation onto the lats.

I am not a "swimmer" but I do take pride in being at least decent in the water. Will hit the pool today for 5000 to get 16 for the week (last swim for the week....go long on the bike tomorrow). So I have been practicing this.

Just a couple questions:

1. Rotation? even when not breathing, I always try to have the rotation so that I can see a swimmer on either side, whether pool or open water. Is there such a thing as too much rotation.

2. Head position? Cecil Colwin states that seeing hand entry is a FUNDAMENTAL. That means one can not being looking straight down but rather more forward and head up. Maybe there are two schools of thought on this topic.

3. Other strokes? Thanks for the backstroke. The breast is obvious. How about the fly? I often see other swimmers alternating. I would assume every stroke. I do every stroke. Because my technique is lousy, I hit O2 debt at the 50 ( my goal this year is to be able to fly a 100 so that I can then swim a 400 IM).

I am still base training so the emphasis is aerobic endurance and force. And for swimming, the major emphasis is stroke improvement. Doing sprint and VO2 training comes later. In addition to standard drills, the two "training sets" I do are probably not done by many so am curious as to your opinion.

20% of swim yardage is with a band only. That goes for the day and for the weeks total. So if I swim 5000 today, 1000 will be banded. (I do cheat somewhat; I put the innertube just under the patella). This is swum aerobic, 5 second rest. I believe that this is the best drill to put it all together?

The other drill I do is a fun set. 10x50....scy......swim easy tarzan polo head-out-of-the water watching the entry until approaching the wall then smoothly duck in for a couple strokes to pick speed up for the turn, then kick on the back to return (alternate flutter, breast, and dolphin) then repeat, no rest. Recovery is done on the return kick length.

What do you think? I may have it all wrong but I do feel I am improving. Of course the proof will come once the "fast" training begins and I improve upon last years times.


thanks again,
Conrad
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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OK, after taking a day off to lick my wounds i am now ready to offer Fundamental #3 Swim on the Freeway.

This fundamental pertains to inertia. Inertia simply means that it is more efficient to keep an object moving (in any medium that creates drag whether streamlined or not) than it is to get it moving in the first place.
We may remember the days when we could afford to look at new cars. Recall the sticker on the windshield that gives us two numbers for fuel efficiency, a higher value (say 26 mpg HWY) which means on the highway and a lower value (say 18 mpg) for around town. So why the difference? Why are we more efficient on the freeway driving 70 mph than we are in town where we average 30 mph? It has to do with the amount of energy it takes to get a big 4000 pound vehicle going from a dead stop. If you have ever tried to push a stalled one, you know.
Or even better yet, if you have ever had the misfortune of misjudging your flip turn and pushed off against nothing but water molecules, same problem. Ugh. The amount of energy to power you up again to race speed is overwhelming. The race is long over for you.
Because we swim in water and we are bricks, we are particularly prone to of the hazards of inertia. The reason is we decelerate so quickly without power. Budd Termin at the University at Buffalo published a nice paper a few years back showing that all breastrokers (even really good ones), after their push off the wall, underwater pull and dolphin kick, all of which help propel them forward, come to a complete stop (zero velocity) by the mere act of bringing their arms tightly forward and their thighs forward to prepare for the first stroke. Dead in the water in less than 1/2 second...once again proving that we are bricks. Breastroke, by the way, is not a 'freeway' stroke. It is an inefficient 'stop and go' stroke, or as Gary Jr calls it, 'the potatoe sack race' of swimming.
The point is this, once we power our bodies up in the water, we want to keep them powered up. In freestyle, I believe (though this has never been proven) that the highest velocity point in the stroke cycle is when either hand first enters the water and 'catches'. Why? Because we are in the most streamlined position that we can be in at that moment and we are mechanically in a stronger position at the top of our stroke (arm above our head) than we are as our hand moves (relative to the body) rearwards. Think about it, by the time our hand reaches our waist about the only decent muscle left pushing is our tricep. Above our head, we engage our deltoids, pecs, lats, biceps, triceps....all working on our behalf.
Ok. So if i am right and this is the highest velocity position (I shall call it the power position), we can only be in this power position for a limited time. And there is always some delay (since we only have two arms) from the time one hand leaves the power position and the time the other gets there. During this time, we begin to decelerate (slow) and the amount we slow depends on the time it takes us to get the other hand back to the power position and how well our other propulsive force (our legs) are maintaining our velocity. Most of us don't have the legs to do that and even if we did, as I explained in describing the hip-driven freestlyle, we likely don't want to use them in the triathlon swim. So the other option is to get the hand back to the power position quickly.
If, for example, you were cruising at a top speed of 3 mph and took you a full second to recover your arm, you likely won't drop to 2 mph like our earlier dive example where you are slowing at 1 mph each second, because you are still kicking and the back half of your arm stroke does provide some propulsion. But you might slow to 2.3 mph, and then you have to power back up to 3 mph again. The point is that you would be much more efficient if you only dropped to 2.7 or 2.8 mph and the way to do that is to get that hand back to the power position faster (increase your stroke rate)
Many studies (including Budd Termin) have shown the parabolic curve when comparing stoke rate to velocity. The faster the stroke rate, the faster you swim up to a critical point, at which turning over faster actually makes you go slower (loss of efficiency). Virtually all of sprinters in the finals of the Olympic 50 m are at or near the top of their curve. Most of us never get close.
But wait! What about Phelps and Thorpe, who look like slow motion and are turning over so much slower. Why are they going so fast? Legs, legs, legs. They each have Mercury outboards behind them that keep them on the freeway (maintain speed) in a different way.
So for the rest of us mortals who want to stay on the freeway, we must rely on increasing our stoke rate and holding the power position as well and long as we can with each hand.
In teaching this concept, I found it initially challenging to get swimmers to change their stroke rate and get them up on the curve. But then i developed a drill that really works. It is to use the freestyle with the dolphin kick....but to do it with a 1:1 ration between arm strokes and kicks. In other words, one kick, one pull...not two kicks one pull. Once you get the hang of it, you will find the groove or sync and feel pretty good doing it. It requires effort but is guaranteed to get you out of stop-and-go swim mode and onto the freeway. You can also use it for backstroke, but it is even more challenging since most of us are so accustomed to turning over way too slow on our back.

Finally, and the last thing i will leave you with, because i hate telling you about these fundamentals without telling you how to learn how to do them, are the four best drills I know for teaching the fundamentals. However, I don't have the energy to redo them so please go to our website http://www.theraceclub.com and read the latest Aqua Notes I wrote and perhaps you will find the other blogs interesting as well. All for now.

Yours in Swimming,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome and thanks

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"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life".
Zappa
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [MikeSprint] [ In reply to ]
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Can you give us a link to video of this being used?

Okay, this isn't exactly what he's talking about (and it's not an olympian either), but it looks like this female NCAA swimmer (the girl who wins, Menezez) takes two or three breaths on the right, then two or three breaths on the left and then grabs an extra breath on the opposite side before she hits the wall. I guess that's what you have to do to swim 1,000m in 10:26.

http://www.floswimming.org/...scy-free-final-ha-d1

(There's a close-up at 5:30)

Imagine that: you'd finish your 4,000m workout in 42 minutes.
My Home Pond

----------------------------------------------------------

"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life".
Zappa
Last edited by: KonaDreamer: Feb 20, 09 9:53
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Let me tell you about this guy you need to teach how to swim... He lives in Madrid and his name is Joaquin...

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