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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Dnowak] [ In reply to ]
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Dnowak wrote:
Well, do you? I have never ordered one nor done one. I can't imagine it would be more than a couple hundred dollars when bought and administered in a mass amount. Whatever the cost, build it into the Kona fee. I would be happy to pay it. When I consider how much money I spent in 2012 to qualify at IMNYC and then do Kona bringing along my wife and son for both trips, whatever the tests cost are miniscule to all my other costs.

HAHAHAHA!!

For the major items (EPO, etc), start at $1000 and go up. Per test, per substance.

http://www.asada.gov.au/about/fees.html - That's the Australian costs, US runs very similar.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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If WTC wants - they can. They make millions of dollars in profit every year. Shouldn't be a big deal to order some tests at least for the Top10 AGers in Kona.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, they really get you in Australia. I am an orthopedic surgeon in the US. I just called my lab and was told a blood EPO test is less than $100 and urine about $300. So if you get a mass discount as WTC would negotiate, it would be even cheaper.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [danstu4] [ In reply to ]
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danstu4 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
JoeO wrote:
jackmott wrote:
JoeO wrote:
Not sure how "awesome" that is. If I'm in the crowd, I'm assuming he's calling all of those people on the podium with him dopers.


I'm not sure if we should blame him for your bad assumptions!


It's a very reasonable assumption.

As a very minimum, people in the crowd will assume that someone in the M35-39 is a doper. But it is reasonable to assume that the word would be out in Frankfurt that the winner was a former pro cyclist doper and I'd wager to assume that there were a number of boos in the crowd that accompanied him being called up on stage as the European IM Champion. Next stop for Colom is to win the M35-39 championship in Kona and call himself the World Champion. Kind of sucks, but I guess he served his penance and is allowed to race.

I just feel it is important that people know what is going on. In the case of Michael Weiss it is obvious and the bulk of pros make is clear that there was a doping infraction in his past. In the case of Colom he's quietly competing away and winning with minimal scrutiny. At least Weiss is being tested frequently. Weiss is trying to earn a living with the transparency that goes with being a pro. Colom is kinda flying under the radar (not entirely, but low enough that the efforts of guys like Sam should be commended).

Dev
Not if I have any thing to say about it. Now it is just going to fuel my fire that much more. I'm going to beat that piece of shit. See you in Kona colom, asshole!!

You would be the guy that can do it. Kill it! See you in steelhead next month... id like to shake your hand....a good 15 minutes after you finish of course.


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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Dave Latourette] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Latourette wrote:
"He only cheated out other cyclists
"

Hey Dev ... the training benefits he gained in his doped up years of training are life long.

As well ... saying he dos not do it for money any longer I would question. He has sponsors AND he has a business centered around coaching (HA), and a triathlon team called something like "Toni Coloms World" (its on his race kit)


Just read this. Apparently the jury is still out on this.


http://velonews.competitor.com/...hancing-drugs_317590


And maybe he is beating your athletes and others because he was pretty friggin awesome to begin with? And the doping allowed him to win against other dopers.
Last edited by: tucktri: Jul 7, 14 20:28
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed, You can dope a donkey and it will never win the Derby....nobody is a saint. People, cheat and lie everyday, why would the tri sub set of people be any diffrent?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" so bang the "dopers suck" drum just not to loud.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Dnowak] [ In reply to ]
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Dnowak wrote:
Wow, they really get you in Australia. I am an orthopedic surgeon in the US. I just called my lab and was told a blood EPO test is less than $100 and urine about $300. So if you get a mass discount as WTC would negotiate, it would be even cheaper.

Sure the lab test is cheaper but you also have to factor in the person who takes the test, travel, etc. You can't trust that dopers are just gonna walk into their local LabCorp and take the test.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
Dave Latourette wrote:
"He only cheated out other cyclists
"

Hey Dev ... the training benefits he gained in his doped up years of training are life long.

As well ... saying he dos not do it for money any longer I would question. He has sponsors AND he has a business centered around coaching (HA), and a triathlon team called something like "Toni Coloms World" (its on his race kit)


Just read this. Apparently the jury is still out on this.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/02/training-center/an-analysis-of-the-long-term-effects-of-performance-enhancing-drugs_317590


And maybe he is beating your athletes and others because he was pretty friggin awesome to begin with? And the doping allowed him to win against other dopers.

Interesting excerpt from the article:


Vaughters said he has seen riders drop well below their pre-EPO baseline abilities, and claims the effect last years in some cases.
The effect is called erythropoietin hyporesponsiveness. It’s well documented in cancer patients who take large quantities of EPO to stay alive. EPO receptors become desensitized and there can even be damage to bone marrow where red blood cells are produced.
More concerning still is a condition called pure red cell aplasia. When medical patients are maintained at high doses of EPO, the body can develop antibodies against EPO itself; these antibodies are unable to distinguish between natural and synthetic forms. The result is a permanent and sometimes dangerous reduction in red blood cells.


Personally I don't buy that the physiological gains from a period of doping are positive once the athlete stops, so I am not averse to letting them back into sport, once appropriate suspensions have been served. I don't debate that former dopers had better access to training, infrastructure, doctors, physiologists etc, but then again, at the age group level there are plenty of guys who do well at Wall Street, or in the tech world, or law or accounting that have enough money to buy any access to the best doctors, coaches and trainers, so that's not really a point worth even discussing.

The main point for discussion is once ex dopers serve their sentence, if they are going to come and play in triathlon, let's at least force them to make an effort to be open book and show they are doing it clean now. Sam Gyde laid down a firm message to Colom at Frankfurt on the podium. Colom can respond and be transparent about how he supports clean sport moving forward and does not want to bring his cycling past practices to triathlon. That would be some kind of a start. Right now, it seems like he has the same mindset as Vino or Contador...He doped, he sat in the penalty box and now he is racing again, so don't bother him. Except he is not racing cycling where he did the equivalent of Robben's or Messi holding an opponent and getting a penalty. In triathlon terms what he did was more like match fixing in FIFA football, and before fans would allow him back in he'd have some explaining to do.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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Never said he wasn't physiologically very good to begin with ... he'd have to be of course' and that's not what anyone questions ... everyone just wants a level playing field

So lets take the cheaters Vande Velde & Zabriskie and the Velo--news stuff out and let me ask you a question. --- If you trained incredibly hard for say 3-4-5 years and each winter you take a period of light training to re-generate, re-motivate etc. Does all that training you did the year(s) before simply put you back at ground zero because you took a light month of training? IMO If a person can train harder / more AND RECOVER better each year (for whatever reason they can) the training effect doesn't just dis-appear. I understand the effect of the doping product is gone. Not the effect of training ... if that were the case athletes wouldn't improve year to year

I know this is ST, but I'm not looking for a pissing match. ;-) It's an honest question. If you don't agree based on your own wisdom from training & racing (not from velo news) I'm good with that.

Best,

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com
Last edited by: Dave Latourette: Jul 7, 14 20:57
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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How should he "open the book" and I really don't know what that means?

I don't think many care what Colom or Gyde have to say.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Dave Latourette] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Latourette wrote:
Never said he wasn't physiologically very good to begin with ... he'd have to be of course' and that's not what anyone questions ... everyone just wants a level playing field

So lets take the cheaters Vande Velde & Zabriskie and the Velo--news stuff out and let me ask you a question. --- If you trained incredibly hard for say 3-4-5 years and each winter you take a period of light training to re-generate, re-motivate etc. Does all that training you did the year(s) before simply put you back at ground zero because you took a light month of training? IMO If a person can train harder / more AND RECOVER better each year (for whatever reason they can) the training effect doesn't just dis-appear. I understand the effect of the doping product is gone. Not the effect of training ... if that were the case athletes wouldn't improve year to year

I know this is ST, but I'm not looking for a pissing match. ;-) It's an honest question. If you don't agree based on your own wisdom from training & racing (not from velo news) I'm good with that.

Best,

Yes I agree. What you did the year before has benefits in the following years in non-cheaters. Would be silly to not agree with that.

Now back to Colom, he got popped 5 years ago. We don't know what has happened in those years. It looks like he still wanted to race bikes so I would also assume he was getting tested, but its cycling, who really knows. But I'm gonna assume he was clean. So every year without doping, his training load would decrease and decrease right? Plus you have the Vaughters quote where he has seen guys worse off after getting off this stuff. But who really knows right? Maybe it lasts forever maybe it doesn't.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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>I don't think many care what Colom or Gyde have to say.

Well the thread has >4000 views in just a few hours, which isn't bad. And you made it to post 83.

W.r.t Colom, not many care, but enough stakeholders in the cleanliness of the pointy end of AG competition do. Culture isn't going to enforce itself. I've got Gyde's back on this one.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
This deserved its own thread...lifted out of the banter on the IM Germany thread. STer Sam Gyde on the same 35-39 IM Frankfurt podium as Antonio Colom (thanks to Pierre-Yves Facomprez):


Bravo.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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You go girl!
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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You do look like you were very happy about it at the time.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
This deserved its own thread...lifted out of the banter on the IM Germany thread. STer Sam Gyde on the same 35-39 IM Frankfurt podium as Antonio Colom (thanks to Pierre-Yves Facomprez):



I wonder if Sam Gyde would wear the same top if he won and Colom got third. Sure, call out dopers, but not only when they beat you.
Last edited by: over9000!: Jul 8, 14 4:52
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [over9000!] [ In reply to ]
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over9000! wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
This deserved its own thread...lifted out of the banter on the IM Germany thread. STer Sam Gyde on the same 35-39 IM Frankfurt podium as Antonio Colom (thanks to Pierre-Yves Facomprez):



I wonder if Sam Gyde would wear the same top if he won and Colom got third. Sure, call out dopers, but not only when they beat you.

I don't know Sam's travel plans and if he even has seen this thread yet on his return home from Frankfurt. I THINK it is the first time the two have gone head to head. He seems like a straight up guy and stands behind what he believes in. Hey, the guy has even come on ST and defended powercranks to folks on ST and not backed away on that, so I would imagine that he is even more passionate about the topic in the picture.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Staz] [ In reply to ]
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Staz wrote:
You do look like you were very happy about it at the time.


It was 2 years before Jalbert got popped. I had no idea who he really was.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Last edited by: Bryancd: Jul 8, 14 5:29
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Well done. Dopers that fess up, and try their best to compete cleanly and show that they are doing so, deserve a second chance. Dopers that just go under the radar and try to satisfy their hunger for success like this one however, not so much.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be interested in the opinions of the other top American age group racers in Kona in 35-39. Beck, Zucco, Inkinen, Burke, Harms? Just to name a few. I suspect some, due to their personal businesses being tied to the sport, can't really speak out.

Personally, I think some advantage is retained, and I question if a former doper should be allowed to compete in a championship event in any sport related to cycling. On the flip side, how much time are we actually talking about? 3-5 minutes on the bike? The guy is clearly very fit and very strong.


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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
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Fred D wrote:
I'm not sure what the value is in testing Kona qualifiers, if it is only at the point of time of qualifying. KM was nailed by an OOC test, I suspect people of his ilk are smart enough to not 'glow' at the time of competition. OOC testing for age groupers would present additional challenges...

This is the crux of the problem. OOC testing is the ONLY way to really deter AG dopers. I would guess most of them are taking EPO in small doses and then stop at least a week before competition. So they are clean when they race. Kona and 70.3 Worlds AG qualifiers appear to have virtually zero chance of being tested, especially OOC.

I understand the arguments against AG OOC testing, none least the cost of it, but it just seems there must be some low hanging fruit that could be enacted as a deterrent because right now, if I'm thinking of doping my way to Kona or 70.3 Worlds as an age-grouper, I see absolutely no risk of being caught. For the record I'm not good enough, though my wife has qualified a number of times and she's never had the faintest hint that someone could show up at the door asking for a test. Now I know many poeple don't want that to be able to happen from a privacy perspective, but given the hours required to train to achieve these goals I would think most of the potential qualifiers (not MOP'ers) would want this to be at least a possibility.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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I just fundamentally disagree that any age groupers should be tested. As an age grouper I line up to do my best and the only one I am really racing is myself. I find it pathetic that age groupers cheat with PEDs, but I am not going to make it my business to involve myself in your deplorable behavior. If I set my mind to it, I hopefully will qualify for Kona. If beating a cheater is part of it, so be it.

I do think what Sam Gyde did was a little different. He called out a professional cheat who is now racing age group. And I do understand where people are coming from with their calls to clean up the age group ranks. For me it is not that important. I think there are others who feel the same way.
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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What will we do when this happens

http://now-thats-amateur.blogspot.com/...o-x-chromosomes.html

Is it fair?
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
At what it costs to enter an IM, I want EVERY AGer who qualifies for Kona at all races to be tested while they are accepting their slot and paying their money. 100%.

.

So you want to catch only the stupid or careless dopers?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Sam Gyde Takes Stand Against Doper Colom (pic) [Dnowak] [ In reply to ]
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Dnowak wrote:
Wow, they really get you in Australia. I am an orthopedic surgeon in the US. I just called my lab and was told a blood EPO test is less than $100 and urine about $300. So if you get a mass discount as WTC would negotiate, it would be even cheaper.

I think you guys may be looking at 2 different things.

I doubt ASADA has its own lab, so it'd be contracting out the test analysis. I suppose it's possible, but the capital expenditure, liability, etc would make this unlikely. Thus the cost ASADA is charging would include the overhead of having someone to liase with the lab. ASADA would also be responsible for "results management" I believe, thus they need people and systems to keep track of the tests, test results, and have processes in place to deal with what happens when someone fails a test. That would add cost over and above what a lab would charge simply to collect samples and analyze results. The lab Dnowak contacted, on the other hand, is only responsible for the "lab" portion (i.e no "results management").

Sort of the difference between paying for "parts" or "parts and labor."

Also, the costs of Australian lab tests will be more expensive because Australian lab equipment requires special calibration to correct for the fact that the country is upside-down :)

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