I understand being devastated and sorry it did not turn out like you planned, now you know what does not work. I hear everyone saying you went out to fast and not enough MPW, which I agree to a point, but your quads started locking up in the second half tells me you were cramping and thus the walking. Cut yourself some slack and rack it up to a learning session. Couple of things I would change to have a better outcome
1) Nutrition, I would not take any gels until nearly and hour to keep the tummy happy, plus you don't need anything until then, and make sure you take water with the gel every 20-30 minutes thereafter, you were smart to train with gels!
2) salt tabs, not sure what the gels had, but with the cramping you were done, you probably needed salt tabs
3) quads cramping might be more than salt tabs and if there was any downhill, and training on the TM, without significant downhill force to adapt to that, cramping would occur since you are overworking your quads and had no training for that. The first time I ran the Colorado Marathon and it had a lot of downhill, I ran it without training for downhills, I could feel it come from mile 10 on, and it became a walkfest. Train for the course!
4) long runs to get used to the pounding as others have said need to be outdoors, higher intensity shorter runs with incline like 2 to 3 percent as one noted are great.

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"Don't mistake activity for achievement"
-John Wooden

Too low mileage is the biggest problem. I'm curious also what your runs looked like? Were they all at the 8mm or did you mix in some Tempo or speed work?

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Instagram or twitter me softly @xatefrogg

My only issue with that study is that their self reported marathon times are significantly faster than the averages you’ll see at large open marathons (I.e. no entry time requirement). Such is the nature of these types of surveys, they attract more dedicated and/or experienced athletes. I don’t think that the effect of additional years of running or other genetic factors can be discounted.

That’s not to say there aren’t links between training volume/pace and race performance. But to turn it into a “you must run this much to get this result” type statement is a little reductionist in my view. Most studies only turn out r values below .75 when predicting race performance based on training volume.

no one asked, what was the course like ? TM running is OK for flat or uphill running, but does not simulate the effects of eccentric contractions running downhill. So your quads were not ready for the effects of running outside.

FWIW: the gels sounded fine to me

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Tom,

Thanks for the link to the study. A very interesting read and a calculator that seems to correctly predict my last few marathons based upon training races in the months leading up to each marathon. I may use this to help inform my pace goals.

Thanks!

Michael

30-40 miles per week is great if you are running a marathon just to finish. If you are a first time marathoner, it sounds good to me. But a first-time marathoner should probably not be worrying too much about performance.

If you are running to achieve a performance goal, 30-40 miles a week does not even come close. That doesn't mean you won't make it. It just absolutely minimizes your chances.

I'll never understand how people think this is going to work. A person is barely running the race distance over the course of 7 full days thinks he's going to magically achieve it all on a single day at a faster goal pace. And then goes out even faster than that pace to boot.

I followed the McMillan running plan thats included in my strava premium. it had me doing a little of everything. typically a medium distance recovery run at slow pace early in the week. some type of interval or speed work in the middle of the week, and usually a long run on sundays.

The speed work varied by Yasso 800s, 1min on 1 min off, usually running at 5k pace which is high 17/low 18 for me.

i might also add ive never trained using heart rate. my garmin Wrist HR is very inaccurate and never gave results i could trust. just last week i got the chest strap so ill see if training in HR zones helps at all.

Good job following a plan. In my opinion the treadmill is perfectly fine. I do 75% of my runs on the TM at 0% incline and can do a 3hr marathon. My suggestion is to add more miles. Average 45-50 building up then get to 60 a few times. You may have to run twice a day to get there but I find it’s easier on the body to do a 6 mile then a 4 mile five days a week rather than four 10 milers and a 20 miler. Keep consistent and you’ll get better.

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Instagram or twitter me softly @xatefrogg

Cramping when going out too fast on that level of mileage says pure muscle fatigue/undertrained for the distance, IMO. Don't beat yourself up, though! Learning experience and all - the marathon is something you just have no idea about until you actually have the first one under your belt. Base mileage is just as important as long runs for the marathon; it is a brutally unforgiving distance to race and having a couple of 20+ milers near the end won't make up for overall low mileage for the months and months leading up to the race.

I take gels far less frequently for a marathon (sensitive stomach, I do one per hour and generally carry four but cap out at three), but whatever works for you in training on the fueling front is fine for race day. I averaged about 55 mpw for my first race over about 20 weeks and was adequately prepared to finish but sick on race day, 67 mpw/75 peak for my second and felt super prepared to crush it (3:32 and change as a 30F). You can certainly get away with less mileage if you're also biking and swimming a lot, but below 40 would still make me a little concerned!

I'd be curious to hear about the weather for this full. Was it sunny? warm? If you're used to running indoors with a fan blowing, air conditioned comfort and no sun load, you're going to be cooking outside if it's sunny and over 60 degrees F.

The mileage, to me, doesn't seem that low--but the lack of training variability (ie, hill work) would seem like a red flag as well.

Running on a treadmill is boring, but it's not uncomfortable. Running a marathon properly most assuredly is.

The calculator is significantly more complicated than that. If you read the study.... It's one or two race results + training volume. The whole point was to improve marathon predictions vs shorter distances where existing calculators work pretty well. The big change incorporating average training volume into the model.

But that wasn't my point. The statement that I was responding to was that more training volume isn't the best thing for all runners. As if there is some magic runner who will have their best run on 30 mpw not 55 mpw---assuming the runner is capable of managing the volume.

The relationship between volume and ultimate race pace is entirely too strong WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL to make that statement. That is especially true in the 30-80 mpw range.

That's not the same thing as saying 55 mpw = 8 min/mile.

The relationship between volume and ultimate race pace is entirely too strong WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL to make that statement. That is especially true in the 30-80 mpw range. //

I agree totally with this, and it was my N=1 experience. If I had used these calculators to predict my marathon pace, well I would have gone over an hour slower. I ran pretty much the same mileage as the OP did for 9 weeks(faster pace than him of course and on the road) and was able to do 24 miles very hard, and 2 miles of limping in. But I think that is the sign of a pretty good marathon, sometimes you go for it and just miss, but the time is good regardless as long as you dont walk.


I trained all my miles at race pace(marathon), bust since I did so few, I recovered well from the runs. And dam if on race day I was not only able to run the pace I had been running, but a good bit faster.


The OP is a sub 20 5k runner, so no slouch. He should have been able to break 4 hours with the right pacing I believe, and a run outside here and there. But seems to me pacing was the real culprit here, even though he has yet to admit that..

Wow! Lots of questions...let me try to answer

The race was in Ormond Beach...dead flat except the last 3/4 mike over one bridge
Race start 50 degrees...high was 72 and gorgeous, no wind.
I trained in garage on treadmill in Florida...no fan. All of my sprint tris are here in central Florida in the Summer...
The reason for a gel every 20 minutes was every article says around 75 grams carbs per hour...is that wrong?? My stomach was fine. Figured because I am 185ish I would need it.

I never felt tired in the endurance part...actually felt great! It was the blown up legs around mile 15-18...
Absolutely agree that more mileage would have help circumvent some of the meltdown...

For reference: http://www.tomokamarathon.com/...ainingPlan16Week.pdf

This the plan with the mileage and different types of runs (tempo/recovery/race pace/ easy)

Hopefully I didn’t leave anything out. Thanks again! Amazing resource STF !!!!

The feelings you had are dead on for being undertrained on the run. It's frustrating - you have enough energy to run (or bike/swim), but your legs fail you completely and you're reduced to hobbling.

The prescription bar none is more overall weekly mileage. (Not just longer long runs, that actually is worse, as you'll increase injury risk.) That plan you have that peaks at 38mpw, looks like it averages around 33mpw (or less), which is a recipe for guaranteed underperformance at the marathon.

Triathletes have to learn to treat the marathon with respect. The impact loading of the long run at speed is different than even running a slower IM marathon relative to your ability. The marathon is ALL about leg endurance for most folks save the super speedy sub 2:45 guys, and you gotta put the run miles in - even bike training won't substitute properly (hence why so few pro triathletes run standalone marathons, but happily enter 13.1s)

Probably would have been OK had the race taken place indoors, on a treadmill!
But no, your training and the actual race were not in sync. And given that, you did as one would expect.
If you're going to stay indoors, raise the machine. Lightheir uses a 3% grade on the 'mill; I use 2%, as 3% changes my mechanics too much. But you get the idea.

Really, you just need to lay down more miles, more often. I'd work it outdoors now, especially that Spring is here. Get some hills in the mix.

If you have an out & back course, adjust your pace so you are doing negative splits (second half is quicker); that will force the pace issue. Or use a pace watch, and let it coach you.

Fuel & water: Use the same schedule on your longer training runs. Then the next time, cut it by a third. How does that compare? It's about what works for you, not us.

Don't be too hard on yourself. You ran 26.2 miles!! How much of your life were you convinced you could not do that?? Now, go do it again.

1.) Your legs blowing up is a symptom of going out too fast.
2.) Treadmill is a great running workout.
3.) You just need to keep in mind you aren't really as fast as the TM is telling you (at 0 incline)
4.) I find that 1% or 0.5% incline is closer to real pace.
5.) 72 degrees is gorgeous for a vacation, but not a marathon. That only brought on the blowup faster.
6.) More milage would toughen you up a bit -- especially if you aren't biking too.

Certainly think my body was not adapted to take the pounding as I wasn’t cardio gassed at all...
Higher volume of training would certainly have helped toughen things up..and probably running more outside on pavement.

It seems from everyone’s comments that the plan I followed was more of a “just finish” rather than a “run a PR finish”...although I did PR the half distance, previous best half was 1:57.

Looking it over in detail, I think it's more if a just barely finish plan. Very Minimal mileage, lots of off days...

Lots of ways to skin the cat, you've been given some books earlier to read. Also you can do a lot worse than the Barryp plan documented here:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=1612485

Small world. I lived in Ormond Beach for 14 years and my parents are still in the area. I ran the Tomoka half two years ago.

Here's a humble-brag story that illustrates how the heat factors into things. In 2016, that was my third or fourth half marathon--I finished with a then-PR of 1:39--which I was reasonably happy with, but didn't reflect my normal, faster paces during training over the previous winter here in Ohio. The Half was similar weather then as well--started out in the 50s, but when the sun came up, it became pretty sultry. The final stretch up and over the Granada bridge sucked.

I was running about 25 miles per week at the time. I ramped that up to about 30--with one 35 mile week when I had a 20 miler --and ran the Cleveland full marathon in May, 2016. Just about two months after the Tomoka, I finished with a 3:23. I was a 210lb 45 year old dude...so that made me pretty happy, as it beat my expectations.

So..yea, what was the difference? It was 32 degrees and raining/snowing. Pretty darn perfect for a marathon, if you ask me. No way in heck I could get even close to that if it was over 50 degrees.

Just one data point that illustrates that temperature matters. It's actually pretty fascinating, as your core temps go up, your body diverts blood flow to the surface to help cool it while you are sweating. That blood flow change means your legs aren't getting what they need. Boom, your legs feel like they're blowing up...but in reality, it's your whole body.

You may have gone out too fast while it was cooler and then your body had issues with the 20-degree temperature shift. I'd be willing to bet you never saw that much of a swing in your garage.

No obviously a negative split is faster, my point was, if you're fit, have done the training you can get away with (to an extent) of making a few pacing mistakes without the shit hitting the fan. Obviously if your target time is 4 hours and you run the first 21km in 1.30, then yeah you're going to struggle, but going 10 mins too quick in the first half, whilst not ideal, shouldn't be a disaster - if you're fit....

Gotcha. I misread that as averaging 40 miles.

Yeah. If you look at the actual plan he followed...

Avg was 30.3 mpw. Max was 39 mpw, min was 22 mpw. 6 of the 16 weeks we leas than the average of 30 mpw. Alternating 4 and 5 runs per week. A total of 3 weeks with more than one double digit length run. 7 total runs greater than 15 miles. Fully half of the volume was concentrated on the Sunday long run.

The long week structure was: 3 off 10 off 3 3 20

It's really just a long run with barely adequate maintenance runs during the week. So sure it has two 20 mile runs in the plan. Completing the plan should allow someone to finish. But, it pretty much guarantees a slog for that final 10 KM. And leaves very little fitness margin for pacing errors.

I think the majority of the problem here is that all of that TM time didn't give you a feel for your pace.

I ran exclusively on the treadmill for years, decades even. It was a quick and easy thing to do at home every other day.

When I started running outside, my pacing was a mess. I'd start out wayyy too fast and then hit a wall, and have to back it way down. Then repeat over and over. My speed graph looked like a sine wave.

It took me a while to learn to pace myself properly. After all, the TM had done that for me forever.

OP, I think this is your biggest hurdle. Go and run outside more. Learn to pace yourself. And you'll be fine.

I'm not sure if you are just new to running, or if you are trolling.
You said that you have a 5km PB of 19:20, but your half marathon PB was 1:57. How does that happen? Your 5km PB gives you a VDOT of 51.8 which is good for a 1:28:48 half or a 3:05 full.

Now I get that you massively undertrained to do a marathon, but a 4h marathon isn't really a good goal time for you!

Also regarding nutrition, in an IM marathon you might be pretty depleted going into the run, so you need to take lots of fuel on. In a open marathon you want to use your body glycogen as much as possible and top up a little throughout. 3 gels an hour is more than would be necessary, unless you burn fat very badly.

Doing all of your training on a treadmill if good if your marathon is on a treadmill, otherwise you're better off running outside when possible. Also if you train with walk breaks, you should race with walk breaks!

You got greedy.

Your eyes were bigger than your stomach.

Your ego was writing cheques your legs couldn't cash.


Pick one of the above